You know ED's galaxy map needs a bookmark system when...

[pharon]

Trading should be about facing the dangers of a profitable but perilous travel route. Skill should be involved in avoiding or escaping pirates and other ( like avoiding customs for illegal transports ). Elite already has that ( in a rather emergent way ) but does nothing to counter the grinding part where you need to every station and every system just to find out the prices.

A true challenge should be trading between zones of relatively safety to lawless zones where crime flourish. And there should also be the profits. But due to the way travel system is implemented currently trading means a lot of very repetitive grinding with no real challenge. Surely long term it will become a grind. probably. but any step to make it varied and unexpected and removing the most repetitive or time consuming steps is welcome.

In regards to economy in general and trading EVE has an extremely functional economy most of it being not _influenced_ but _generated_ by players. Surely we don't need or want 'another EVE' ( we can just go and play it if that's the case ). nevertheless some concepts can be 'imported' if they are shown to produce value and 'fun'. indeed in EVE for example many of the challenges revolve less on actual finding a profitable route but actual transporting goods trough that route.

All in all i'm indeed not a game designer and i hope the designers find a better way for trading ( and all the other stuff ). But one thing IS clear grinding is the way to fail. And some things are 'grindy' right now to a large degree. As you said all online games have elements of gaming but the difference is how extended they are.

As an example of non-grind activity is the actual docking process. I realize some players consider it grindy ... but i think the majority of us dont. There's skill involved in a fast docking and you CAN do either a fast or safe docking. As you learn more you can get to mazing speeds but there's always a little uncertainty as in what if the moment you want to dock an anaconda will try to use the same routes trough the docking gate as you ?
What if you are moving to slow and the authorities will scan you ( and find that illegal cargo) . And so on. It involves a challenge and skill is an important factor.
There is also an autodocking module i guess ? I dont mind it being used. I would mind if it would do the job better than an actually skilled pilot.

 

[Deleted member 37733]

Trading should be about facing the dangers of a profitable but perilous travel route. Skill should be involved in avoiding or escaping pirates and other ( like avoiding customs for illegal transports ). Elite already has that ( in a rather emergent way ) but does nothing to counter the grinding part where you need to every station and every system just to find out the prices.

A true challenge should be trading between zones of relatively safety to lawless zones where crime flourish. And there should also be the profits. But due to the way travel system is implemented currently trading means a lot of very repetitive grinding with no real challenge. Surely long term it will become a grind. probably. but any step to make it varied and unexpected and removing the most repetitive or time consuming steps is welcome.

In regards to economy in general and trading EVE has an extremely functional economy most of it being not _influenced_ but _generated_ by players. Surely we don't need or want 'another EVE' ( we can just go and play it if that's the case ). nevertheless some concepts can be 'imported' if they are shown to produce value and 'fun'. indeed in EVE for example many of the challenges revolve less on actual finding a profitable route but actual transporting goods trough that route.

All in all i'm indeed not a game designer and i hope the designers find a better way for trading ( and all the other stuff ). But one thing IS clear grinding is the way to fail. And some things are 'grindy' right now to a large degree. As you said all online games have elements of gaming but the difference is how extended they are.

As an example of non-grind activity is the actual docking process. I realize some players consider it grindy ... but i think the majority of us dont. There's skill involved in a fast docking and you CAN do either a fast or safe docking. As you learn more you can get to mazing speeds but there's always a little uncertainty as in what if the moment you want to dock an anaconda will try to use the same routes trough the docking gate as you ?
What if you are moving to slow and the authorities will scan you ( and find that illegal cargo) . And so on. It involves a challenge and skill is an important factor.
There is also an autodocking module i guess ? I dont mind it being used. I would mind if it would do the job better than an actually skilled pilot.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not arguing for the sake of it merely pointing out the difficulties FD (and any developer face).

You haven't really supplied any concrete suggestions. Concepts are good and that's where things begin but how do you actually implement them in game with workable mechanics?

You mention pirates and illegal customs and that is already present. Slave trading in anarchy systems on the black market, having to fly into stations cold to avoid a scan for example.

AI could be better, but that's always the way with all games and it's not unique to ED. If the best minds and computers still can't develop a program that passes the Turing Test then there is no way FD can get the AI to behave anywhere remotely close to the way a real player operates.

Certain aspects of the game you don't like are design decisions FD chose and I don't see these radically changing. It's their game, it's not perfect and we have opted to play it. We can provide suggestions and if they chime with their goals, if it's possible, realistic and economical to implement them they will.

 

[ocflyer]

I think the lack of price checking is more for gameplay reasons as opposed to realism. If you consider the alternative it basically becomes a game of whack-a-mole: click to check prices, don't like them, click another ad infinitum which in itself is very boring. If you take your idea to it's logical conclusion then the game should just tell us what to buy, where from and where to sell it (removing all risk). In this case they might as well remove trading.

I think you have the wrong idea about price checking and trading in general. When I'm planning my trade route, I use the existing crowd-sourced market data (realistic method considering that we do that in real life) but I have to spot check the crowd-sourced data since it can be out of date. So, before I commit to 100LY round trip, it is useful to spot check the prices for the commodities that I'll be trading. Whack-a-mole for price alone implies that you don't spend any time thinking about the route. For me, there are several factors that affect my trade decisions, not just price. I have to consider the risk of going through specific systems, availability of fuel at the stations (some don't have fuel), distance between the station and the star (long time in supercruise means more interdictions). I often plan a route that offers lower profit/ton because the profit/ton/hr is better and/or the risk is significantly lower because of less time in supercruise.

 

[pharon]

For the suggestions themselfs we are talking about 3 distinct proposals of wich 2 are referred by the orginal thread:
- bookmarks on star-systems and/or stations - i support
- notes on star-systems and/or notes - i support
---
- the ability to find out prices at least system-wide w/o having to visit each and every station ( i'm also supporting this to be extended to a sector ).

The principles of why i am supporting this are in the comments above. I don't have the answer of what should take place instead of that as spending the time ( which currently is mostly stale time - nothing really interesting happens there ) but my suggestion is to expand and make the existing mechanics more complex. As to various other suggestions i suggest looking up another thread i made ( wont link it here - would just be a shameless plug but it's easy to find and i'm actually welcoming feedback ).

As i see it profit = (time * 1/skill) + time constant; as skill goes up the variable time decreases. the time constant acts as limiting the progression. But the time constant shouldn't be long waiting stale times just to 'travel'. But rather creep up in small amounts for various operations. The exact implementation of this - that's something that i'm also waiting for the devs to find out. I'm not minimizing the work they need to do but that wont stop me from criticizing a system that i deem as inappropriate. It does not have to happen now or today or in the exact next patch. But something they are aware that should be improved.

 

[pharon]

I think you have the wrong idea about price checking and trading in general. When I'm planning my trade route, I use the existing crowd-sourced market data (realistic method considering that we do that in real life) but I have to spot check the crowd-sourced data since it can be out of date. So, before I commit to 100LY round trip, it is useful to spot check the prices for the commodities that I'll be trading. Whack-a-mole for price alone implies that you don't spend any time thinking about the route. For me, there are several factors that affect my trade decisions, not just price. I have to consider the risk of going through specific systems, availability of fuel at the stations (some don't have fuel), distance between the station and the star (long time in supercruise means more interdictions). I often plan a route that offers lower profit/ton because the profit/ton/hr is better and/or the risk is significantly lower because of less time in supercruise.

I'm not really aware of the EULA implications of using such 'croud-sourced' route planners. I'm not saying that it is correct or not to use it. I'm just saying that well-that means that the mechanics that the game provide are insufficient for a 'fun' experience. Croudsourcing the data inside the game is from my point of view another viable solution. but the game should provide such tools and make it easy and clear for players to use it.

It is true that there will always be various helper tools for any existing game but if i have to use a tool just to remove the grind out of a game activity well maybe the concept is flawed and/or might be improved right ?

 

[ocflyer]

Until bookmarks are available, would it be cheaper to simply sign up for a long timeout mission at the stations of interest? Then you would see the Mission icons. When the mission times out, you might take a minor hit to rep.

 

[Gold Member]

I'm not really aware of the EULA implications of using such 'croud-sourced' route planners. I'm not saying that it is correct or not to use it. I'm just saying that well-that means that the mechanics that the game provide are insufficient for a 'fun' experience. Croudsourcing the data inside the game is from my point of view another viable solution. but the game should provide such tools and make it easy and clear for players to use it.

It is true that there will always be various helper tools for any existing game but if i have to use a tool just to remove the grind out of a game activity well maybe the concept is flawed and/or might be improved right ?

I promise this isn't an EVE is better response...just an observation that that game has been quite successful for a long long time and has quite a stable of player-developed apps - most of which rely on players voluntarily registering their API with said app so it can track all kinds of useful data. Most players I knew used more than one monitor (including me) to track system ownership, kill boards, to plan routes through safe and not-so-safe space, check prices, put things up for sale...all these things done outside the game while the game is being played. It creates a community buy-in that, frankly, the developers couldn't achieve on their own because then there is a sense that the game really is affected by players.

Being able to bookmark within the game is only the first step, as compiled data (which may or may not be up to date) is gathered on user-generated sites. Hopefully Frontier will see this as a viable way to continue development of the game as the menial tasks end up being done by the players themselves - they take the grind off the developers plate and put the effort to make the game itself less grindy in some ways in the players laps. Development of the game can continue easily and the nitpicky details of incorporating more details into the user interface can be partially avoided if the players are allowed and even encouraged to develop their own ways of gathering data. EVE has a very intimidating UI for some people where thousands of data points can be called with a few clicks. I don't want ED to become that, but allowing real access to locally stored file data, such as systems visited and details like politics, commodities, factions, etc. would certainly avoid any UI clutter creep.

 

[pharon]

I promise this isn't an EVE is better response...just an observation that that game has been quite successful for a long long time and has quite a stable of player-developed apps - most of which rely on players voluntarily registering their API with said app so it can track all kinds of useful data. Most players I knew used more than one monitor (including me) to track system ownership, kill boards, to plan routes through safe and not-so-safe space, check prices, put things up for sale...all these things done outside the game while the game is being played. It creates a community buy-in that, frankly, the developers couldn't achieve on their own because then there is a sense that the game really is affected by players.

Being able to bookmark within the game is only the first step, as compiled data (which may or may not be up to date) is gathered on user-generated sites. Hopefully Frontier will see this as a viable way to continue development of the game as the menial tasks end up being done by the players themselves - they take the grind off the developers plate and put the effort to make the game itself less grindy in some ways in the players laps. Development of the game can continue easily and the nitpicky details of incorporating more details into the user interface can be partially avoided if the players are allowed and even encouraged to develop their own ways of gathering data. EVE has a very intimidating UI for some people where thousands of data points can be called with a few clicks. I don't want ED to become that, but allowing real access to locally stored file data, such as systems visited and details like politics, commodities, factions, etc. would certainly avoid any UI clutter creep.

I've played EVE ( Excel in space ) for more than 5 years so i'm pretty familiar with it But any additional functionality built by players is done on top of some very useful base features. And the game gives that API to start with. ( just as a note beside being able to see a sector at a time of markets and even place remote orders afaik the markets allow you to export the data in a CSV )

But the point here is ( in regard to developer / players attitude ) :
good attitude : we will allow you to see (at least ) system data at some point or offer functionality to easily export it
bad attitude : having to visit each station is a 'feature' and a 'design decision' and that's how the game should be played because it adds to the 'immersion' and 'fun'.

( you can see that in the second case the apps are built AROUND that mechanic and not complementary to it - and such the EULA reference. ).

 

[nist]

I also do this, but lately I have switched to Cobra's. Because the cool kids do.

Also I wish I could transfer tonnage to the stored ships cargo hold ;p

 

[GJ51]

I'm totally opposed to any such notion...

I absolutely dread the thought of having to fly all over the place just to sell my Sidewinder collection...

 

[Tryst]

I also do this, but lately I have switched to Cobra's. Because the cool kids do.

Also I wish I could transfer tonnage to the stored ships cargo hold ;p

Have some rep. I've been wanting cargo transfer for a while now. But not necessarily to store it, just so I can store a ship with cargo and transfer the cargo to the ship I want to use if it has room for it all.

It would also be nice if we could go to other systems and pick up equipment for another ship. Use a Cobra to go and pick up a A5 FSD for your T7 or something. Return and fit it as you would normally. This helps enormously if you don't have the range in the ship you want to upgrade to get it to where it can be upgraded. I had to strip my T7 down to it's barest minimum to get it out of the system I bought it in because it didn't have the range to even get to the next system with a standard fit and there was nowhere in the system I bought it to upgrade it at all.

 

[nist]

Have some rep. I've been wanting cargo transfer for a while now. But not necessarily to store it, just so I can store a ship with cargo and transfer the cargo to the ship I want to use if it has room for it all.

It would also be nice if we could go to other systems and pick up equipment for another ship. Use a Cobra to go and pick up a A5 FSD for your T7 or something. Return and fit it as you would normally. This helps enormously if you don't have the range in the ship you want to upgrade to get it to where it can be upgraded. I had to strip my T7 down to it's barest minimum to get it out of the system I bought it in because it didn't have the range to even get to the next system with a standard fit and there was nowhere in the system I bought it to upgrade it at all.

It is true all this.
Just allow me to buy equipment for my ship, without having to sell the component already installed. I'd love long time.
Galaxy and System waypoints would also be awesomes, but I fear it resembles the unmentionable too much ;-\

 

[Tendaris]

I disagree with any sort of price check feature, except for perhaps an average price in system/sector. Light speed communication etc should not matter at least realistically, even in a technological society. If you want to know how well it would work, try this at home, pick several common items, ranging in price now sit down pick up a phone and start calling around your town/state attempting to get a price for each item. Wish you luck with that. Online same thing, either store not online, outdated information, or item your asking for not there. In a market sense locally produced products are generally cheaper then stuff that has to be imported and most traders avoid the stations too far out and merchants would realize this so your joy at calling up a system and finding a great deal might feel not so great when its 100000ls out from star.