Isn't this a good thing tho? They are basically terrorizing federation space, now they can have the bounty to prove it.
Crime Update Discussion
- Thread starter Sandro Sammarco
- Start date
Isn't this a good thing tho? They are basically terrorizing federation space, now they can have the bounty to prove it.
A couple of concerns:
1. Accidental friendly fire can lead to the destruction of said friendly (has happened to me a couple of times with NPC:s). Some of the more powerful weapons combined with low health friendlies could lead to unwanted criminal status that would now be harder to remove.
2. Taking for example an unshielded Sidey could be used to inflict that kind of criminal status on for example bounty hunters focusing on their targets.
1. Accidental friendly fire can lead to the destruction of said friendly (has happened to me a couple of times with NPC:s). Some of the more powerful weapons combined with low health friendlies could lead to unwanted criminal status that would now be harder to remove.
2. Taking for example an unshielded Sidey could be used to inflict that kind of criminal status on for example bounty hunters focusing on their targets.
As a bounty hunter myself, I think the proposed changes are fantastic, and in fact a little overdue. But I would like Frontier to consider taking things a little further:
-A player with a large bounty should be encouraged to dramatically change their behaviour; their actions should force them to be fugitives and outcasts from regular systems in which the faction that gave them a bounty is present. This will make anarchy systems much more interesting.
-If a player gets scanned by that faction's security or by a station whilst carrying a large bounty on their heads they should not only be fired upon, but this should update GALNET with their position (and delay it by say 15-30 minutes for balancing), allowing bounty hunters to gather more accurate intel from local law enforcement, if a wanted player makes a mistake. This will make things more interesting for both hunters and the hunted by encouraging stealthy gameplay.
- Murder should carry a much higher bounty. You could keep the current flat rate and maybe quadruple it (murder is murder no matter what ship you kill). Or you could really spice things up (Warning: Curveball incoming) by having the insurance cost of the murdered ship affect the size of the bounty. So the scum of the galaxy would be encouraged to go after bigger game; killing a sidewinder is like killing a homeless guy, whereas killing a federal corvette is like killing the President.
Just some food for thought
.
-A player with a large bounty should be encouraged to dramatically change their behaviour; their actions should force them to be fugitives and outcasts from regular systems in which the faction that gave them a bounty is present. This will make anarchy systems much more interesting.
-If a player gets scanned by that faction's security or by a station whilst carrying a large bounty on their heads they should not only be fired upon, but this should update GALNET with their position (and delay it by say 15-30 minutes for balancing), allowing bounty hunters to gather more accurate intel from local law enforcement, if a wanted player makes a mistake. This will make things more interesting for both hunters and the hunted by encouraging stealthy gameplay.
- Murder should carry a much higher bounty. You could keep the current flat rate and maybe quadruple it (murder is murder no matter what ship you kill). Or you could really spice things up (Warning: Curveball incoming) by having the insurance cost of the murdered ship affect the size of the bounty. So the scum of the galaxy would be encouraged to go after bigger game; killing a sidewinder is like killing a homeless guy, whereas killing a federal corvette is like killing the President.
Just some food for thought
.
I would like to add my voice that not every small infraction should result in a bounty. Get rid of the 200cr "Wanted" status and replace it with simple fines up to a certain limit, let's say 1000cr. At the same time, slap on a hefty bounty on player killing. 10% of total ship and cargo value would be great. This should not hurt true pirates, as they only extort cargo and do not usually kill their victims.
As in Freelancer, Pirates should have their own stations (and sometimes already do, think "Anarchy" systems) and no need to dock at major faction controlled or tight security starports. Give them hidden stations in hollow Asteroids that would fire on any player that is NOT wanted. A true pirate did not sail in Plymouth Harbor for outfitting either, but used some shady Caribbean port town.
As in Freelancer, Pirates should have their own stations (and sometimes already do, think "Anarchy" systems) and no need to dock at major faction controlled or tight security starports. Give them hidden stations in hollow Asteroids that would fire on any player that is NOT wanted. A true pirate did not sail in Plymouth Harbor for outfitting either, but used some shady Caribbean port town.
I like the idea of a cool-down period for paying of bounties - but I am a bit concerned about forgetting to pay off a silly fine resulting in a wanted status and then a cool-down. So could you use the total accrued fines and double the fines every day you don't pay until it goes over a threshold fine - then you become wanted? So then minor fines would only lead to a wanted status after a longer period, or you'd have to accrue lots of minor fines without paying them off. So for example, something along the lines of...
1. Fines double every day you don't pay them.
2. When the total fine is over a certain threshold you become an offender. No bounty here, but it's a warning that you will be wanted soon if you don't pay your fine
3. Once the total fine goes over another threshold then you are wanted and the cool-down period is activated. You have a bounty at this point. The doubling of the fine now stops as it's a bounty.
4. Once wanted, every new crime re-sets the cool-down (or adds to it if you are feeling particularly harsh....)
5. Major crimes, murder etc would have to give you a fine large enough to take you straight to wanted with a faction as they do now.
6. Further crimes, once wanted, add to the bounty, and once over another threshold maybe you become wanted with the major faction?
And if I understand correctly you are also saying that after a commander loses their ship that the cool-down period continues and they still have to pay the bounty off - which I think will work.
1. Fines double every day you don't pay them.
2. When the total fine is over a certain threshold you become an offender. No bounty here, but it's a warning that you will be wanted soon if you don't pay your fine
3. Once the total fine goes over another threshold then you are wanted and the cool-down period is activated. You have a bounty at this point. The doubling of the fine now stops as it's a bounty.
4. Once wanted, every new crime re-sets the cool-down (or adds to it if you are feeling particularly harsh....)
5. Major crimes, murder etc would have to give you a fine large enough to take you straight to wanted with a faction as they do now.
6. Further crimes, once wanted, add to the bounty, and once over another threshold maybe you become wanted with the major faction?
And if I understand correctly you are also saying that after a commander loses their ship that the cool-down period continues and they still have to pay the bounty off - which I think will work.
Last edited:
As a bounty hunter myself, I think the proposed changes are fantastic, and in fact a little overdue. But I would like Frontier to consider taking things a little further:
-A player with a large bounty should be encouraged to dramatically change their behaviour; their actions should force them to be fugitives and outcasts from regular systems in which the faction that gave them a bounty is present. This will make anarchy systems much more interesting.
-If a player gets scanned by that faction's security or by a station whilst carrying a large bounty on their heads they should not only be fired upon, but this should update GALNET with their position (and delay it by say 15-30 minutes for balancing), allowing bounty hunters to gather more accurate intel from local law enforcement, if a wanted player makes a mistake. This will make things more interesting for both hunters and the hunted by encouraging stealthy gameplay.
- Murder should carry a much higher bounty. You could keep the current flat rate and maybe quadruple it (murder is murder no matter what ship you kill). Or you could really spice things up (Warning: Curveball incoming) by having the insurance cost of the murdered ship affect the size of the bounty. So the scum of the galaxy would be encouraged to go after bigger game; killing a sidewinder is like killing a homeless guy, whereas killing a federal corvette is like killing the President.
Just some food for thought
I like this....
As previously stated, Its a very much needed addition but it needs a baseline threshold to stop things getting silly or a rethink on what constitutes an immediate bounty vs a simple fine.
Accidentally clipping someone with laser fire should be a fine, serious damage or killing should be a bounty. Seriously I don't want to have to go on the run for a 200c bounty for a week because I clipped the wing of an npc and I cant pay it of instantly. It would make a mockery of the thing
Accidentally clipping someone with laser fire should be a fine, serious damage or killing should be a bounty. Seriously I don't want to have to go on the run for a 200c bounty for a week because I clipped the wing of an npc and I cant pay it of instantly. It would make a mockery of the thing
I think 2 days is way overkill, what's needed is a timed multiplier to paying them off, so you kill someone, or steal some of their cargo, X amount multiplier to pay it off, which decreases overtime should they not commit any further crimes or the timer is re-set on the next criminal action. This means that the period of time is in essence a state of incrimination, being that the payoff is in the 100 millions, something extremely undesirable, it also provides the victim with a period of time where by actions can be taken against a criminal before they just jump to pay it off.
As for friendly fire this should only ever be a small fine, until hull damage or constant repetitive damage is taken.
I can't tell you what I think the multipliers, crime values, timing or rate of decrease should or could be. But 2 hours would sound right, this is a small amount of time that allows criminal activity to pass, allowing for a low payoff which allows the player to resume something like trading.
In addition to this it would be nice if the bounty list information presented (last known location) by stations could be updated more frequently (every 20 mins), and didn't just list 5 pilots, but every pilot over a threshold in unpaid bounties, this allows bounty hunters to be hot on the tails of these criminals, other than the current system which is opportunistic at best.
Maybe holes in this feel free to rip it apart.
As for friendly fire this should only ever be a small fine, until hull damage or constant repetitive damage is taken.
I can't tell you what I think the multipliers, crime values, timing or rate of decrease should or could be. But 2 hours would sound right, this is a small amount of time that allows criminal activity to pass, allowing for a low payoff which allows the player to resume something like trading.
In addition to this it would be nice if the bounty list information presented (last known location) by stations could be updated more frequently (every 20 mins), and didn't just list 5 pilots, but every pilot over a threshold in unpaid bounties, this allows bounty hunters to be hot on the tails of these criminals, other than the current system which is opportunistic at best.
Maybe holes in this feel free to rip it apart.
Hello Commanders!
Some more thoughts for you to chew over:
* Assuming all goes well and we can turn on friendly fire for human Commanders successfully, we'll also be looking at increasing the thresholds required to commit a crime, essentially allowing Commanders to deal more damage before a crime is registered.
Other rules will remain in place: if you commit the crime of assault (deal more damage than friendly fire allows for) then you will have a bounty issued against you. This includes firing upon a vessel without first confirming its legal status (performing a basic scan OR being struck by the vessel for damage over the allowed friendly fire amount).
We aren't going to try and arbitrate the level of crime based on factors for the simple reason that it would be inherently difficult and unclear to understand the result.
* We're not going down the route of having fines for assault - these would be exploited by groups of ships where several ships could strip the shields/deal significant hull damage without anyone able to retaliate (as they simply received fines), whilst one nominated "killer" then dives in to perform the killing strikes.
Hello Commander Demonicus!
The example you give, where you are taking damage but cannot retaliate until you've scanned is not correct (or you have discovered a bug!).
If a bunch of ships are attacking you, you cannot fire back until you have scanned them OR they have successfully hit you. At this point, they instantly become known as wanted by your vessel and you are free to respond in kind without fear of retribution.
Now, a few direct responses (again, thank you for the input):
Hello Commander LaRokka!
I understand your fears about making it too difficult to actually be a pirate. We're looking a few other things to give pirates a bit of a boost, we're just not quite ready to talk about them at the moment. We want piracy to be a dangerous occupation, but we want it to feel fun and worthwhile as well.
Hello Commander zzzornbringer!
I don't necessarily agree with you that gaining a bounty is a death sentence. In fact, I think I'd go as far as to say that as long as you are prepared to move to a new system for a while, the only folk you'll need to worry about are the bounty hunters who don't mind suffering a bounty themselves to claim yours. Furthermore, if you can last long enough for the bounty to time out, you will only be stung by the non-expiring fine if you need to re-spawn within particular jurisdictions.
However, what these changes should do, is make life harder/more exciting for villains who currently haunt the same system for a length of time, which seems reasonable, even desirable, to me.
Hello Commander PotatoOverdose!
To comment on your example that you'll drop your shields and enter my line of fire to force me to get a bounty: this kind of behaviour is going to exist to some degree regardless of the crime system used.
What I can tell you is that rather you than me flying around a vessel with its shields down, and if I thought you'd done it on purpose I'd probably attack you and be hung for a wolf as for a sheep.
On a more serious note, one thing that we will look into regarding this is to see if we can check a target's shield status. It might be possible to apply the friendly fire thresholds to hull damage if the target has their shields down. On face value, I can't see any major issues with this (other than implementation costs).
Hello Commander SushiCW!
Hopefully the most infamous scoundrels will still be able to rack up significant bounties, as each new bounty issued against you by a minor faction resets the cooldown timer, and each new fine adds directly to the bounty value. Yarr harr!
Hello Commander jonfitt!
Hey, let me try a quick overview to help explain how crimes work!
Space is divided up into different jurisdictions, each under the control of a minor faction. This is actually the important bit!
There are two types of crimes: those punishable by fines and those punishable by bounties.
Fines that are not paid in time become bounties.
You only ever commit crimes against the minor faction that controls the jurisdiction you're in. Other factions don't care at all, so when in their jurisdictions, you are classed as clean. Like say, how Russia might not be interested in crimes you committed in America, as long as you don't commit crimes in Russia (a lame example but hopefully you get my drift!)
This means if you get a bounty, it will always be for a particular faction.
Currently, you can simply dock and pay off your bounty. The proposed change will mean that you can't - you'll remain wanted in the minor faction's jurisdictions for a set amount of time.
Surviving this time, or being killed by someone who knows about your bounty will clear your wanted status and turn the bounty into a one off bill you'll have to pay if you ever re-spawn in the jurisdiction.
A bounty becomes dormant when you die without it being detected (so no-one can claim it). Only the police can scan and detect dormant bounties, which makes them become live again, though committing a crime in the jurisdiction will do the same thing.
Hope this helps!
Hello Commander Dmstubbs!
I'm afraid we're going to disagree about fines. You might think they are not important, but I actually do - they mean that you've broken the law. The amount of time you get to pay off fines might be extended though.
The reason that we give players who had bounties bills to pay off even after they were killed is to mitigate the very simple exploit of racking up huge bounties then allowing a friend to claim them with no costs other than a potentially very cheap ship re-buy cost. The proposed change won't eliminate this, but should discourage it.
Some more thoughts for you to chew over:
* Assuming all goes well and we can turn on friendly fire for human Commanders successfully, we'll also be looking at increasing the thresholds required to commit a crime, essentially allowing Commanders to deal more damage before a crime is registered.
Other rules will remain in place: if you commit the crime of assault (deal more damage than friendly fire allows for) then you will have a bounty issued against you. This includes firing upon a vessel without first confirming its legal status (performing a basic scan OR being struck by the vessel for damage over the allowed friendly fire amount).
We aren't going to try and arbitrate the level of crime based on factors for the simple reason that it would be inherently difficult and unclear to understand the result.
* We're not going down the route of having fines for assault - these would be exploited by groups of ships where several ships could strip the shields/deal significant hull damage without anyone able to retaliate (as they simply received fines), whilst one nominated "killer" then dives in to perform the killing strikes.
Hello Commander Demonicus!
The example you give, where you are taking damage but cannot retaliate until you've scanned is not correct (or you have discovered a bug!
).If a bunch of ships are attacking you, you cannot fire back until you have scanned them OR they have successfully hit you. At this point, they instantly become known as wanted by your vessel and you are free to respond in kind without fear of retribution.
Now, a few direct responses (again, thank you for the input):
Hello Commander LaRokka!
I understand your fears about making it too difficult to actually be a pirate. We're looking a few other things to give pirates a bit of a boost, we're just not quite ready to talk about them at the moment. We want piracy to be a dangerous occupation, but we want it to feel fun and worthwhile as well.
Hello Commander zzzornbringer!
I don't necessarily agree with you that gaining a bounty is a death sentence. In fact, I think I'd go as far as to say that as long as you are prepared to move to a new system for a while, the only folk you'll need to worry about are the bounty hunters who don't mind suffering a bounty themselves to claim yours. Furthermore, if you can last long enough for the bounty to time out, you will only be stung by the non-expiring fine if you need to re-spawn within particular jurisdictions.
However, what these changes should do, is make life harder/more exciting for villains who currently haunt the same system for a length of time, which seems reasonable, even desirable, to me.
Hello Commander PotatoOverdose!
To comment on your example that you'll drop your shields and enter my line of fire to force me to get a bounty: this kind of behaviour is going to exist to some degree regardless of the crime system used.
What I can tell you is that rather you than me flying around a vessel with its shields down, and if I thought you'd done it on purpose I'd probably attack you and be hung for a wolf as for a sheep
. On a more serious note, one thing that we will look into regarding this is to see if we can check a target's shield status. It might be possible to apply the friendly fire thresholds to hull damage if the target has their shields down. On face value, I can't see any major issues with this (other than implementation costs).
Hello Commander SushiCW!
Hopefully the most infamous scoundrels will still be able to rack up significant bounties, as each new bounty issued against you by a minor faction resets the cooldown timer, and each new fine adds directly to the bounty value. Yarr harr!
Hello Commander jonfitt!
Hey, let me try a quick overview to help explain how crimes work!
Space is divided up into different jurisdictions, each under the control of a minor faction. This is actually the important bit!
There are two types of crimes: those punishable by fines and those punishable by bounties.
Fines that are not paid in time become bounties.
You only ever commit crimes against the minor faction that controls the jurisdiction you're in. Other factions don't care at all, so when in their jurisdictions, you are classed as clean. Like say, how Russia might not be interested in crimes you committed in America, as long as you don't commit crimes in Russia (a lame example but hopefully you get my drift!)
This means if you get a bounty, it will always be for a particular faction.
Currently, you can simply dock and pay off your bounty. The proposed change will mean that you can't - you'll remain wanted in the minor faction's jurisdictions for a set amount of time.
Surviving this time, or being killed by someone who knows about your bounty will clear your wanted status and turn the bounty into a one off bill you'll have to pay if you ever re-spawn in the jurisdiction.
A bounty becomes dormant when you die without it being detected (so no-one can claim it). Only the police can scan and detect dormant bounties, which makes them become live again, though committing a crime in the jurisdiction will do the same thing.
Hope this helps!
Hello Commander Dmstubbs!
I'm afraid we're going to disagree about fines. You might think they are not important, but I actually do - they mean that you've broken the law. The amount of time you get to pay off fines might be extended though.
The reason that we give players who had bounties bills to pay off even after they were killed is to mitigate the very simple exploit of racking up huge bounties then allowing a friend to claim them with no costs other than a potentially very cheap ship re-buy cost. The proposed change won't eliminate this, but should discourage it.
Jon474
Banned
Excellent plans. Thank you
The main thrust needs to be that a player cannot destroy my ship, in the process costing me, let's say, Cr700k, and only suffer a Cr20k fine which he/she can then pay off at the nearest station and become CLEAN within ten minutes. I need that fine to be expensive and the WANTED status to hang around for some time.
It's all good.
Flying happy.
Jon
The main thrust needs to be that a player cannot destroy my ship, in the process costing me, let's say, Cr700k, and only suffer a Cr20k fine which he/she can then pay off at the nearest station and become CLEAN within ten minutes. I need that fine to be expensive and the WANTED status to hang around for some time.
It's all good.
Flying happy.
Jon
Great idea, someone please rep this poster.
Think of the added game play as factions mount offensives against these lairs.
This really would beg for stations friendly to criminals and hostile towards square commanders. In my humble opinion, of course
I agree. Pirate havens!
A place where nobody cares if you show up with stolen goods and a bloodstained hand.
It would be super cool if they didn't appear on system maps. After all, a capital ship would clear out a pirate haven pretty quickly. Good opportunity there for some community goals, too.
Last edited:
THIS +1. Imho, *No* AI flying a combat-oriented ship should appear without shields, especially as part of a 'pirate' faction or in a CZ. In nearly 3 months of play I haven't seen a single Cmdr combat ship without shields, so why would ai ships do this? The only time it makes any sense is for freighters occasionally, for extra capacity reasons and even then only in secure systems.
Don't you think that converting bounties into non-expiring fines is somewhat making things easier for the criminals? They should *keep* their WANTED status even after the cooldown period, so that bounty hunters can detect their bounty!
imagine current criminals with dozens of millions Cr bounties go skiing for the weekend and when they come back their bounty is just a fine and they lost their wanted status.
Killed thousands of people... walks happy unsuspectable.
imagine current criminals with dozens of millions Cr bounties go skiing for the weekend and when they come back their bounty is just a fine and they lost their wanted status.
Killed thousands of people... walks happy unsuspectable.
Like this idea too but if they didn't show on the map how would you find them - GalNet post giving cryptic clue perhaps?
Murder (no matter the case, except combat zones) of a clean commander should result in a bounty equal to the total credit value (including any carried legal goods) of the victim, be permanent (until new slot) and be payable only to the victim of said murder with 10% interest premium in order to "buy" your way out.
There should be criminal stations/outposts that are friendly to criminals and hostile to clean commanders and these structures should offer higher values for stolen cargo and offer "banned" goods. Basically a mirror of clean structures.
Also, while I'm at it and mostly unrelated, commanders should be forced to choose a "side" in order to benefit from "allied" status from one of the big three. For example, if I have reached the require rep with the Feds and choose to ally myself with them, I would become hostile to the other two.
IMO.
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Supposedly FD said pirate asteroid bases were coming a long time ago, if I remember correctly.
Make them "permit required" systems and you'll need the be a "bad guy" to access them?
There should be criminal stations/outposts that are friendly to criminals and hostile to clean commanders and these structures should offer higher values for stolen cargo and offer "banned" goods. Basically a mirror of clean structures.
Also, while I'm at it and mostly unrelated, commanders should be forced to choose a "side" in order to benefit from "allied" status from one of the big three. For example, if I have reached the require rep with the Feds and choose to ally myself with them, I would become hostile to the other two.
IMO.
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Supposedly FD said pirate asteroid bases were coming a long time ago, if I remember correctly.
Make them "permit required" systems and you'll need the be a "bad guy" to access them?
Last edited: