Crime Update Discussion

[Mephane]

Feel free to post your concerns and suggestions in this thread (with my ever-present caveat: be polite and friendly), I'd love to hear your thoughts!

My concerns are:

a) Friendly fire threshold does not apply when the ship hit has no shields (not equipped or currently down), something over which you have even less control about than them suddenly crossing your line of fire.
b) First-time assault being treated as harshly as murder (wanted, police attacks, and new: you stay wanted for a long time). The game should distinguish between repeat offenders and once-in-a-while accidental occurrences. Here is my idea how that would work:

• When you pay off a single assault bounty, it gets cleared immediately.
• As soon as there is two or more assault bounties, or a single murder bounty, the new harsh rules apply.
• The above limit applies per jurisdiction.
• Attacking a clean ship now does not yield just one assault bounty, but after gaining an assault bounty for a given ship, there is a 2 second window to cease fire (and to disregard any bullets already in flight at the start of the window), after which any further attack yields another, and this time bigger assault bounty. At this point the option to immediately clear yourself is already forfeited. The second assault bounty comes with its own 2 second window, and so on, so you accumulate escalating assault bounties as you keep firing at a clean ship, and then a hefty murder bounty of course if you destroy it.
• I would also like to see murder bounties significantly increased, doubled at least, preferrably much more (5000cr is ludicrous for potentially causing millions of credits of property damage).
• Bonus idea: Make the time you need to wait before paying off your bounty scale with the height of the bounty. For example, anything under 1000cr (500cr is single assault, isn't it?) immediately, then 1 hour for every 1000cr you begin (i.e. 1000-1999cr: 1 hour. 2000-2999cr: 2hours. 3000-3999cr: 3hours). The numbers may are just an example and certainly would need tweaking, but you get the idea.

 

[jabokai]

For clarity; friendly fire allows ships to deal a reasonably small amount of damage to a target's shields without a crime being generated. The actual rules are a little more complex, but this is the gist.

The idea here is that it's a little more forgiving when determining whether crime is being committed against Commanders, with a more significant response when this is the case.

Don't know if this has been mentioned as I have only read the OP, but there needs to be some really clear indicator to the person who has been hit as to when the attacker has stepped over the line from "accident" to "deliberate". If he doesn't know, or it isn't clear, it could be too easy to retaliate and end up as the criminal, rather than the victim.

The other issue here is that people will probably "dab" other players quite a lot either to try and goad them into something, or just for the lulz. That's not as big an issue as the first point.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I kinda like it, I always said we should have a system like this.

Just throwing out some numbers, An assault bounty should go away after 20 minutes, that's just enough time to drive someone from an instance and force them to hide for a little while. A murder bounty should go away after 2 days (assuming no new ones were committed).

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Ok, and that doesn't turn into a bounty after some time of course. Nice.

sorry... What happens if you don't pay the fine?

Well if you die and re spawn in that jurisdiction you'll have to pay it to get a new ship. That's how fines and bounties work now.

 

[JackDeadman]

So basically, when you get a bounty, you don't have the option to pay it off?
After a time, your bounty stops being a bounty, and becomes a fine??

I could well be wrong, but it could mean you still have a bounty on your head, but after a certain period you have the option to pay it off as a non-expiring fine? And if you never pay it off, you remain wanted for the relevant bounty?

 

[Trinity Star]

I have picked up a 400cr wanted status on a few occasions from accidental mishaps such as security ships crossing infront of my firing line, it would be good as somebody has already mentioned in having a 1000cr threshold so 'innocent' commanders do not get punished and their game essentially ruined.

 

[huwthomas]

A possible way of allowing accidental/occasional offenders to pay their fines immediately/quickly would be to have driving-licence-style endorsements that expire with time, and that determine the cool-off period on being allowed to pay off the crime. Someone with no endorsements would be allowed to pay immediately, but would receive an endorsement. Someone with lots of endorsements would have to wait.

 

[Defacto]

I could well be wrong, but it could mean you still have a bounty on your head, but after a certain period you have the option to pay it off as a non-expiring fine? And if you never pay it off, you remain wanted for the relevant bounty?

I guess so, but then, how does it do anything to change the situation with the exploits?

 

[Ydiss]

I think the only way this will become an issue is if the current 200cr fine for assault remains as a bounty. So long as "finesse" means avoiding this scenario, I'm happy. So it should be a fine under a certain value and become a bounty only once you exceed that value (I imagine that should be whatever the penalty is for murder).

This would also remove the irritating mechanic of needing to dock every time you incur an accidental 200cr fine. You can simply pay it off when you dock next time.

 

[Lord Tareq]

Those seem like good changes, basically anything that makes crime a bit more realistic with more lasting consequences is good in my book!

 

[Mephane]

I think the only way this will become an issue is if the current 200cr fine for assault remains as a bounty. So long as "finesse" means avoiding this scenario, I'm happy. So it should be a fine under a certain value and become a bounty only once you exceed that value (I imagine that should be whatever the penalty is for murder).

This would also remove the irritating mechanic of needing to dock every time you incur an accidental 200cr fine. You can simply pay it off when you dock next time.

Well it needs to be a bounty, otherwise it would be illegal for the victim to shoot back immediately. But there must be some threshold, be it simply a credit value, a number of individual bounties, or something else, to make sure that one accidental bounty won't bite you if you behave as upstanding citizen and immediately go and pay the bill.

Also, Sandro, please consider the current turret mechanics when enabling friendly fire between players (which I am in principle in favour of!). I can already imagine an exploit here - shoot another play only once with a weak weapon, if they have turrets to fire at will, turrets retaliate and make them immediately wanted. This must be prevented, for example by separating "fire at will" into two separate modes "fire at will - all enemies" and "fire at will - wanted ships only" (the first mode would be useful in anarchies or conflict zones, in other places you'd fly with the second mode).

 

[Sanguisaevum]

Hello Commanders!

For clarity; friendly fire allows ships to deal a reasonably small amount of damage to a target's shields without a crime being generated. The actual rules are a little more complex, but this is the gist.

I like the idea of not being able to pay bounties of immediately, however... this statement concerns me the most.

The accidental damage system, still does not work very well. It take a fraction of a second for a C3 beam laser to turn a friendly NPC hostile. You simply do not have time to stop firing if an AI crosses your path. It needs serious tweaks before this change goes on, please.

Otherwise, good change.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

Wow, thanks for the responses, a lot to go through. I will take a more thorough look this evening, but a few immediate thoughts:

* We're lowering the amount of ships that fly with no shields. They will still exist, but will be much less frequent.

* The issue with ships breaking off their attack when suffering accidental damage is likely an issue of our aggro system. A good example would be an authority ship that attacks a criminal. The criminal may not fire back immediately (there may be other targets for example). When a Commander comes in and scores some hits it will generate aggro that will be unopposed, making it much more likely that the Commander will become the new target. We're going to look at ways to address this.

* Non-expiring fines from bounties will trigger if you ever need to re-spawn at a starport in the jurisdiction of the aggrieved minor faction that issued the bounty (note that minor factions can be present in more than one system).

* The plan, at the moment, is to have bounties become dormant if you lose your ship without the bounty being detected (for example, if you pancake into an asteroid like I have done on occasion). If your ship is lost to an aggressor that detected the bounty or if the bounty timer expires the bounty turns into a non-expiring fine.

That's all for now. Hope this helps clarify a few things.

Thanks again for the feedback, I'll be back a little later to spend some more time here.

 

[ape808]

the bounty will become a non-expiring fine for the system

Am I right to assume that when bounty turns to a fine, the player is no longer Wanted in that system?

What downside does having a fine have for the player? Could they simply ignore them?

 

[Carmaki]

Like many other commanders, I likewise have to express my concerns about accidental friendly fire. I can't tell ya' how many times someone has flown in front of my lasers and has gotten hit, and then I'm forced to run do to a 200 credit bounty on my head as every single System Authority Vessel has decided that I'm now the biggest threat in the area... If there is a time period I have to wait to pay off these little mishaps, it's going to really drag down my game, since I'm not going to be able to fly until I can pay it off.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Am I right to assume that when bounty turns to a fine, the player is no longer Wanted in that system?

What downside does having a fine have for the player? Could they simply ignore them?

How it works for fines now is, if you die and re spawn in a system where you have a bounty or fine, you have to pay them back before you get a new ship. It's added into your insurance costs.

 

[Quineloe]

The main issue I see right now is that with the upcoming cargo fine reductions, pirate players will not get high bounties. They rarely murder players, especially if they target type 7s, 9s, as those will often comply.

High bounties however are what is required if players are to bounty hunt pirate players. For the 50k a player will obtain over a week of piracy just from interdiction fines and attempted murder and maybe a few murders on top of that isn't enough to justify hunting a player who is not interested in fighting you and will try to get away from you.

Another thing is fines. If someone already has a bounty, there should not be fines anymore for interdiction. It should straight increase the bounty.


Expanding friendly fire to include players is a good change, and is basically mandatory with your vision of NPCs being treated like CMDRs.

 

[Dustand]

I think an underlying problem with in game crime is the absence of human interaction. Player v. AI crime isn't worth attention, but Player v. Player crime is troubling. Why be humane if communication message construction equals death in a mugging? Sure, many players treat others well, but on the whole, player populated systems are death traps, and unexpected interactions with other players are negative.

E.D. might be better off if player kills outside of defined situations results in penalties. The most obvious would be an inexorable increase in insurance rates as unsanctioned PvP kills mounted. Mirrors real life insurance practices in a way. But I also rather like the notion that firing could be delayed (by more and more time determined by number of PvP kills outside combat areas) just by keeping a comm channel open or by buying a faction password from a black market contact.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

High bounties however are what is required if players are to bounty hunt pirate players. For the 50k a player will obtain over a week of piracy just from interdiction fines and attempted murder and maybe a few murders on top of that isn't enough to justify hunting a player who is not interested in fighting you and will try to get away from you.

The bounties are already high when you take into account pirates make squat compared to other roles. If the bounties and fines were raised by a lot pirates will struggle to pay them off.

 

[rudidev08]

I'm really liking this - bounties should be things of consequence, not something where paying will remove bounty immediately, especially for piracy and griefing. For repeat offenders, would be interesting if chance of getting intercepted by authorities increases as bounty fine increases. That way wanted ships should need to leave juristriction of system / faction for some time to "cool off".

Plus as mostly pacifist explorer, i personally like the idea that if i get interdicted and attacked attacker won't be just able to pay bounty off in few seconds like nothing happened.

My only concern is that i've got (small) bounties for... i forgot what it was exactly, accidental shot, or something like that, but essentially things that shouldn't result in bounty. usually 200 or 600 credits. But i think you're aware of those, so as long as this new update scales not to punish small accidental things, i'd be great!

Ironically, it would even interest me in trying to be outlaw in some evil independent system vs NPCs! It's much more fun when i can't just pay to make bounty go away asap.

 

[SushiCW]

* Non-expiring fines from bounties will trigger if you ever need to re-spawn at a starport in the jurisdiction of the aggrieved minor faction that issued the bounty (note that minor factions can be present in more than one system).

So let's say I murder a bunch of ships and rack up 100k in bounties. When the bounty turns into a "non-expiring fine," am I no longer wanted at all? What happens if, after my bounty has expired, I then kill some more ships? Does my wanted bounty start from zero, or the 100k where I left off?

Will it be impossible for players to rack up large bounties anymore? And thus impossible for bounty hunters to have huge bounty targets to try to collect?