The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[Zyll Goliat]

Hmm now even the hardcore fan's going into strike.....https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...ay-from-arena-commander-joystickers-on-strike
Small weak playerbase that acctually playing AC is going to be even smaller....but hey new ships arriving who cares for FM and controllers issues...way the go CIG....

 

[BOT #00001]

They have gone back and forth a lot regarding the way they build this. In the end though, I think that it will be a player, not a ship limit for the instance. If not, having the players of a couple multicrewed ships EVA out of their ship instances in the middle of a large battle would bring down the server...and thats just for starters...XD

Also, what CIG said they are trying to do is to have a physics bubble around a ship, so as to have it not share the physics rigid body calculations for the main instance. Thats very different (actually, totally different and irrelevant) from making a separate network instance.

With things like LoDs in effect, rendering was not, is not, and will never be a hard limit for the instance size in a multiplayer game. For those in the know the "graphical fidelity" limitation is backwards.

It's not just a physics bubble. It's an entirely different instance.


[video=youtube;AGr2WyQGeUw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGr2WyQGeUw&feature=youtu.be&t=29m57s[/video]

@29:57 is when he starts talking instances.

With things like LoDs in effect, rendering was not, is not, and will never be a hard limit for the instance size in a multiplayer game. For those in the know the "graphical fidelity" limitation is backwards.

That's not how game networking works, and it's not how Star Citizen works. All clients run their own simulation and notify the server about inputs, etc. This information is sanity checked (to avoid cheating) by the server and other player/NPC vector information is then retransmitted to all clients so they can then apply this data to their own simulation, extrapolating and correcting when needed due to dropped packets (which is why you sometimes see ships warping all over the place when things get laggy in Arena Commander).

What they were saying about the ships being their own instance was purely from a physics simulation point of view. Basically there will be one physics world which the ships fly in, and then another one for multi-crew ships which only affects characters and objects inside the ship. This is actually pretty straightforward to do so long as the physics engine supports more than one "world" (as they're usually called), especially as Star Citizen has gone the magic anti-grav technology route so they don't need to worry about 0g stuff inside ships for the most part.

Yes...in this case it is.

I have seen a lot of comments and threads on the forums about large scale space battles and if the servers will hold up, or how will instancing work, loading between instances, loading between servers, etc. The hard question here is not just, can we get the server to support lots of players in large environments (I am fairly sure we can), the hard question is how do we get the CLIENT to support lots of players in close draw distances (I am not an engine programmer, so I don't know).

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/4460847/#Comment_4460847

 

[Neo-ST]

Hmm now even the hardcore fan's going into strike.....https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...ay-from-arena-commander-joystickers-on-strike
Small weak playerbase that acctually playing AC is going to be even smaller....but hey new ships arriving who cares for FM and controllers issues...way the go CIG....

Excellent post, it shows the core problem with this game.
Once you get past the marketing , you'll sooner or later arrive at the same spot, especially if you're joystick user.

 

[Helfix]

Excellent post, it shows the core problem with this game.
Once you get past the marketing , you'll sooner or later arrive at the same spot, especially if you're joystick user.

The thread was already merged into something else and the discussion has died on it. Just like every other complaint to be honest.

The thing is, people have had the concern of mouse vs. joystick balance since the forums first opened up back in 2012. CIG assured people over and over that it will not be "Freelancer" style combat and that it will be a skill game, something easy to get into but really hard to master. But hey, here we are now, 2015 and the game is shaping up to be a War Thunder clone in space. Where the casuals get their quick fix and then move on the the next flavor of the month.

The controls will never be balanced as long as mouse players are playing a different game compared to joystick players. There will never be controller balance in a game where you have War Thunder/Freelancer style mouse controls. Where the only thing the mouse player has to worry about is aiming their weapons, the flying is done for them automatically.

CIG needs to:

1). Separate mouse flight from gimbal aim
or
2). AI slave gimbals.

Otherwise there will never be any balance.

CIG has gone above and beyond, and I really mean above and beyond in trying to make joysticks/gamepads work like a mouse. It's ridiculous how out of touch their controller programmers are where they do not understand the basics of what the controllers are actually doing or how they function. I mean, these are the same designers who were thinking that using HAT SWITCHES to aim gimbals would be a good idea. LOL.

But hey in the mean time, look guys we got another ship for sale!

 

[Neo-ST]

The thread was already merged into something else and the discussion has died on it. Just like every other complaint to be honest.

It's here now: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/4725700/#Comment_4725700

I mean, these are the same designers who were thinking that using HAT SWITCHES to aim gimbals would be a good idea. LOL.

Wait, what? Didn't know about that. They really meant that ?

But hey in the mean time, look guys we got another ship for sale!

But, you don't understand, it's gonna help them clear their minds and figure out how to sort the controllers/FM out.

 

[Mu77ley]

It's not just a physics bubble. It's an entirely different instance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGr2WyQGeUw&feature=youtu.be&t=29m57s

@29:57 is when he starts talking instances.

Amusingly, what he describes there is pretty much exactly how the Elite: Dangerous match-making works...

Yes...in this case it is.


https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/4460847/#Comment_4460847

I'm sorry, but this just shows that you clearly know very little about how networking and programming networked games work in general, because if you did you would not be taking what the developers are actually saying so badly out of context.

 

[BOT #00001]

I'm sorry, but this just shows that you clearly know very little about how networking and programming networked games work in general, because if you did you would not be taking what the developers are actually saying so badly out of context.

It's looking like you're the one with the reading comprehension problem, here. His comment is pretty clear. The main blocker for large numbers of players in a single instance isn't the ability to support it on the networking side, but on the clientside ability to actually render that many ships.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

Tried some free flight with a buddy it was insane fun. Doing formations and actually landing and flying around in our characters was a once in a lifetime experience. The way we were flying together was amazing can't wait for more open world stuff. Even coop singleplayer. Having a blast in just free flight is a good sign of how much fun it's going to be when more things are out.

Don't forget to get video next time. )

 

[Ripley]

More landing practice:

[video=youtube;6Af1BqakuKo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Af1BqakuKo[/video]

Practice makes perfect they say.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

Excellent post, it shows the core problem with this game.
Once you get past the marketing , you'll sooner or later arrive at the same spot, especially if you're joystick user.

Looks like it got hidden in one of the 'Cover-up' bins so I can't read what was said. Was this an Arena Commander discussion?

 

[Neo-ST]

Looks like it got hidden in one of the 'Cover-up' bins so I can't read what was said. Was this an Arena Commander discussion?

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/4725700/#Comment_4725700

It was merged into Controller vs. Controller thread.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

The thread was already merged into something else and the discussion has died on it. Just like every other complaint to be honest.

The thing is, people have had the concern of mouse vs. joystick balance since the forums first opened up back in 2012. CIG assured people over and over that it will not be "Freelancer" style combat and that it will be a skill game, something easy to get into but really hard to master. But hey, here we are now, 2015 and the game is shaping up to be a War Thunder clone in space. Where the casuals get their quick fix and then move on the the next flavor of the month.

The controls will never be balanced as long as mouse players are playing a different game compared to joystick players. There will never be controller balance in a game where you have War Thunder/Freelancer style mouse controls. Where the only thing the mouse player has to worry about is aiming their weapons, the flying is done for them automatically.

CIG needs to:

1). Separate mouse flight from gimbal aim
or
2). AI slave gimbals.

Otherwise there will never be any balance.

CIG has gone above and beyond, and I really mean above and beyond in trying to make joysticks/gamepads work like a mouse. It's ridiculous how out of touch their controller programmers are where they do not understand the basics of what the controllers are actually doing or how they function. I mean, these are the same designers who were thinking that using HAT SWITCHES to aim gimbals would be a good idea. LOL.

But hey in the mean time, look guys we got another ship for sale!

ESP will never work and neither ESP nor gimbals will ever be balanced. It is just so obvious and CIG are just wasting time trying to make that happen. They need to just give up ESP and gimbals. Everyone minus the non-virtual stick mouse players knows this. I have actually seen where a player said they should not have to fly their ship like a flightstick does. That statement alone would have brought the whole community down on that player during the first year of development when there were less than 250,000 citizens. Now that there are 850,000 it is overrun with players that are not skill minded or even pilot minded. They clearly just want to play a shooter.

 

[Neo-ST]

That statement alone would have brought the whole community down on that player during the first year of development when there were less than 250,000 citizens. Now that there are 850,000 it is overrun with players that are not skill minded or even pilot minded. They clearly just want to play a shooter.

True, but it's CIG's fault, not the people's.
If they stayed true to their original claims (which they, btw., used to lure us into the game) and built a serious flight model first, then it would either a) repel casual players or b) make them adapt, both of which are better options than what we have now.
But I guess it was too much of a gamble for CIG, they know where safe money lies and original player base will suffocate in voices of pleased casual majority anyway.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

True, but it's CIG's fault, not the people's.
If they stayed true to their original claims (which they, btw., used to lure us into the game) and built a serious flight model first, then it would either a) repel casual players or b) make them adapt, both of which are better options than what we have now.
But I guess it was too much of a gamble for CIG, they know where safe money lies and original player base will suffocate in voices of pleased casual majority anyway.

Glad to see someone else sees that CIG lured the serious pilot types in and then flipped the script on them. That was obvious to the point of being nauseating. I said a long time ago that fighter pilots who put in the work should become fighter pilots and anyone that doesn't have the skill for fighter combat had other pilot level opportunities. Back then most of the pilots agreed because of the numbers. If you weren't meant to fly fighters there were still other role types of ship you could fit in. Freighters, merchant ships, tankers, etc. Or you could be a gunner, sensor operator, or engineer. Instead CIG have chosen to just dumb down the game so that it fits what they can do easily, point and click a cursor on target.

 

[BOT #00001]

True, but it's CIG's fault, not the people's.
If they stayed true to their original claims (which they, btw., used to lure us into the game) and built a serious flight model first, then it would either a) repel casual players or b) make them adapt, both of which are better options than what we have now.
But I guess it was too much of a gamble for CIG, they know where safe money lies and original player base will suffocate in voices of pleased casual majority anyway.

Glad to see someone else sees that CIG lured the serious pilot types in and then flipped the script on them. That was obvious to the point of being nauseating. I said a long time ago that fighter pilots who put in the work should become fighter pilots and anyone that doesn't have the skill for fighter combat had other pilot level opportunities. Back then most of the pilots agreed because of the numbers. If you weren't meant to fly fighters there were still other role types of ship you could fit in. Freighters, merchant ships, tankers, etc. Or you could be a gunner, sensor operator, or engineer. Instead CIG have chosen to just dumb down the game so that it fits what they can do easily, point and click a cursor on target.

Yeah...it's all part of an evil plot by CIG to lure poor joystick players in! Because that makes total sense.

So why would they be in the works on a Star Citizen branded HOTAS then? Wouldn't that be counter-productive to their "evil plot"?

Or could it be, perhaps, that it just isn't balanced to where they want it? You know, with this being pre-alpha and all.

 

[Viking]

The main blocker for large numbers of players in a single instance isn't the ability to support it on the networking side, but on the clientside ability to actually render that many ships.

That is correct. Although it's also the thing that's most easily fixed. Optimizations in the game code has been mentioned, and when that's not enough the player can upgrade his hardware to compensate for the final bit. Network bandwidth at the client side is not something CIG, or often not even the player, can fix. We're all at the mercy of what the network providers offer in the area where we live.

 

[Helfix]

Yeah...it's all part of an evil plot by CIG to lure poor joystick players in! Because that makes total sense.

So why would they be in the works on a Star Citizen branded HOTAS then? Wouldn't that be counter-productive to their "evil plot"?

Or could it be, perhaps, that it just isn't balanced to where they want it? You know, with this being pre-alpha and all.

First off, there is no such thing as Pre-Alpha. Pre-Alpha is internal test building, where anything barely functions and its used by the developers. What you are playing now is the Alpha version of the Arena Commander module. CIG themselves have stated that it was Alpha, the only reason they use pre-alpha is to hide from criticism.

Secondly, if CIG really cared about "balance" and creating a game that actually takes skill, they would not have the current mouse controls from Freelancer/War Thunder. There is no balancing to be had when the only thing a pilot has to do is aim their gimbals and the flying is done for them automatically. Time will tell if CIG rectifies the situation and actually balances the different controlers or if they sell out and cater to the casuals like every other developer once they see money. That's fine as well, but the problem was they are here because they promised something else and it is the reason they got funded in the first place. It's another matter to change course after they got funded to cater to potential "casuals" who only seek flavor of the month games.

As for making a HOTAS, why would they not? It will sell like hot cakes because its SC branded, just like every other ship sale and accessory they sold and they will get a cut of the profits from those HOTAS purchases.

The last "official" CIG poll done back in Jan/Feb of 2015 had 45% of the player base as HOTAS/Joystick users and 42% as Mouse Keyboard. Statistically speaking, that could potentially mean they have 450,000 players to "sell" hotas to.

 

[1500]

Yeah...it's all part of an evil plot by CIG to lure poor joystick players in! Because that makes total sense.

So why would they be in the works on a Star Citizen branded HOTAS then? Wouldn't that be counter-productive to their "evil plot"?

Or could it be, perhaps, that it just isn't balanced to where they want it? You know, with this being pre-alpha and all.

"in the works" Does not mean it will really happen.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

Yeah...it's all part of an evil plot by CIG to lure poor joystick players in! Because that makes total sense.

So why would they be in the works on a Star Citizen branded HOTAS then? Wouldn't that be counter-productive to their "evil plot"?

Or could it be, perhaps, that it just isn't balanced to where they want it? You know, with this being pre-alpha and all.

There is no way that HOTAS deal is going to work out for CIG unless they cancel all continued ESP development and either further restrict gimbals through significantly reduced yaw/pitch and movement rates, or just remove gimbals completely. A 60% reduction to gimbals across the board would show real promise but they won't go that route so it is safe to say that CIG will claim later that the HOTAS deal just did not work out the way they had hoped and as such they have cancelled further work on the deal.

What's really sad is CIG fail to realize that removal of gimbals is not going to cause mouse players to rage quit. One thing that is a common fact about casual gamers and mouse players in general is that they were developed on a game's good looks. If it looks good they will come regardless of having to use their mouse to fly their ships. Looks are King! That is how it has been for 15 years and that is how it will continue to be.

 

[Dante80]

Some feedback.

Secondly, if CIG really cared about "balance" and creating a game that actually takes skill, they would not have the current mouse controls from Freelancer/War Thunder.

The controls are not like Freelancer, although I understand why many people would say that they are. Essentially, both mouse modes function like a Vjoy. The difference is that one of them has a very big deadzone, and gives you the opportunity to train/aim gimbaled weapons manually off bore without having the ship change rapidly course.

This makes it "feel" like you are playing Freelancer or WT arcade mode, since the player puts his marker on the enemy ship and moves it closer to the deadzone as his ship turns to compensate. If you keep the marker on the same position though, the ship will keep turning forever (which is the opposite of what happens in Freelancer for example).

Or could it be, perhaps, that it just isn't balanced to where they want it? You know, with this being pre-alpha and all.

AC has not been "pre-alpha" since 1.00. Also, you have to understand that we have been testing for 10 consecutive months now (its not like its new and unpolished), and there are still a number of aspects of the FM that we do not really know what CIG wants to do with them. One of the main problems that I can identify right now is that CIG did not have a firm idea on what the intended player experience would be at the end off the road, so the agile process they use is a test and re-assess iteration cycle in this part of the feature set.

As we move forward, another problem that might emerge stems from the fact that community pressure fortifies a certain testing decision in the early testing process, and using the agile process to evolve it is very difficult, and actually counterproductive to the alpha testing process. For example, no-one really has any problem with CIG changing the way the damage states work on the hulls, but trying to balance and change things like the ship stats or what ordnance a certain ship carries is nightmare. Same goes for parts of the aiming feature set in the FM, or the way boosters work, or (more importantly) what thruster output and throttle management will be in the game.

Said community pressure (relying on past dev quotes and todays status quo) is really difficult to overcome, and sometimes forces the developer to stay silent regarding changes on the status quo, or even fail to be brave and iterate/evolve it as the agile process dictates.

Hope that helps, cheers..C: