We need to increase speed and acceleration for EAGLE

[Defacto]

If you have money IRL- your cars and other equipment get better. Quality costs- and its the price of EARNING to achieve. The concept of ACHIEVING and a meritocracy may be hard for some to understand when they advocate communism- but think of it as- the person who EARNED the more powerful ship worked hard to get there and deserves it - rather than 'we all deserve to have better ships'.

Do you know what the most valuable resource in the game is? It's not credits. Getting credits is ridiclously easy. Some methods of getting credits are almost completely safe, and when you get your first credits, you will also quickly gain ways to earn credits even faster. Getting an expensive ships is not an achievment - it is the result of putting time in the money machine. There are hardly any set backs, unless you challenge yourself (which is completely unnecessary and suboptimal if you want to earn as much money as you can). If the ships are balanced so that you ''achieve'' win-machines by spending time on earning money, this would be a significant loss for the game.

No one says that the Eagle should be better or even nearly as good as the large, expensive combat ships, but it should have something, something to go for it. Increasing the speed to what was suggested in the OP would give it something. Personally, I would still always choose the Viper, even with these changes, but there might actually be some situations where an Eagle could have a place to shine in. I think that this is something that fighter deserves.
If you have money IRL - your cars and other equipment get better, and that should happen in the game too, but just like IRL - the more expensive something gets, the more specialized and optimised it should get. A Mig-21 would defeat a F-117 Nighthawk in a dogfight, because the Nighthawk isn't a dogfighter, despite being a military aircraft. A mig-21 is also a lot faster, and it can even do ground attack like the Nighthawk, but it also has weaknesses compared to the nighthawk.

What is the most valuable resource? It's other people, who work with you. Getting people to help you, aid you, defend you, that is a real achievment, and not just a function of the time you've spent in the game. The game rewards us for that, and that is great.

It's like the T-72. Most powerful vehicle on the battlefield across large swaths of Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia...but totally outclassed by modern MBTs.

No. T-72 to T-90 in ED would be: Viper DC to Viper Mk.III, or Cobra Mk.I to Cobra mk.III

More accurate comparison for Eagle to Viper III: BMP-2 to T-90.

 

[Jorlin]

The Eagle is described as a phased out ship that is no longer manufactured, though still used by a lot of navies. It is working as intended.

Todays Jetfighters stay in service for a long time, being constantly upgraded up to a point where it isn't possible anymore or just to expensive.

That's why it might be an idea to put in a buyable, ship specific upgrade pack (one time, non configurable). This would make it a more expensive but slightly better ship.

 

[BEKTOP 3APEMOB]

Ok, so you don't like how the results of your own poll have gone so you're now going to, on the strength of a personal anecdote about who you run into, claim that this is based on a PvP and PvE perspective. Ok, you're completely wrong (for a start there are many systems, for a second thing you don't necessarily play at the same time as others, and for a third many people use a different name here and in game), but let's just make the outrageous assumption that you're correct....

The game of Elite is, and always has been, PvE. This is a game with a dynamic universe where you can, for the first time, interact with other people playing. It isn't World of Tanks or Warthunder or one of those games. If your principle idea in playing is to hop into a ship on day 1 and take on all comers (even if you don't expect to defeat them) in an arena style contest then you're quite simply playing the wrong game.

Please come back to reality. You deny Elite the right to have an interesting PvP aspect, based on some ridiculous notion of legacy and how the game should stick to it. Deal with it - Braben decided to add multiplayer into this game and there are all kinds of PvP action going on there already. And multiplayer part is what I wanted when I was playing Elite: Frontier and First Encounters - I think many others dreamt about it back then and now it's here, which is great.
I didn't suggest something that would brake PvE for you, I only want to improve PvP part (that you shouldn't care about with your way of thinking anyway).
Another thing about my preference - I didn't know I would like the combat/piloting simulation by Frontier this much. But they made it the best in history of space-sims. And yes I would love to have places in-game where I could come and fight other players - maybe somewhat like Colosseums in Empire space.

As for my little observation - I'm not sure in it - I said "may be" - but I think a lot of people who likes PvP this side of the pond were in Lugh at one point and I had a chance to fight them.

 

[Cmdr Kurnek]

It's like the T-72. Most powerful vehicle on the battlefield across large swaths of Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia...but totally outclassed by modern MBTs.

see this is the best counter arguement/metapor I've come across in this discussion, and to be honest I think it provides the 'fair' alternative choice to what is suggested. leave the eagle as is, because it fits the background. it IS a stepping stone in the background....

But...

currently, unless someone cuts themselves off from all hope of EVER flying the more expensive ships, there is no way to stay, or replay through that class of ship, and still feel like your income is worthwhile. you COULD wipe your save file, but then you will never save to fly a fdl or whatever. you COULD pretend your bank account wasnt 7 or 8 digits long, but I've never found that quite satisfactory personally, I will always know the money is there.

I think this is a reason for multiple commander slots. you could keep one character permanently low tier, wiping him and starting again if you want a challenge. meanwhile continuing to play your main character, and experience the other side of the game.

Currently I think FD is missing a trick, vast swathes of those who play are cut off from alternative ways to play the game, because there is only one slot...

 

[Gold Member]

It's always useless. I don't see your point. The Eagle as it is currently doesn't seem to be designed to have any useful combat role at all. It isn't even good at fleeing, and that combined with its crappy jumprange makes it useless as a courier, too.
You're also right in that it's pretty hard to get a useful A-fitted Eagle, and the price for that is even closer to the price of an A-fitted Viper than the purchase prices of the ships themselves. Yet another nail in the coffin for the Eagle.



Could you make a video? I've seen lots of players that appear skilled at fighter combat struggle at even damaging the shields of player Pythons when they fly Vipers, so I would really like to see how you handle your ship to get an upper hand against these opponents when flying an Eagle.

I'll make sure I turn on Shadow Play the next time.

 

[hanks01]

A well flown Vulture can't sit behind Anacondas and Ferdelances? A well-flown vulture can't deal out vastly more damage per second while also being extremely survivable compared to the Eagle?
An Eagle would never have a chance to win a fight against an Anaconda or Python. Even if you completely outmanuever the Python/Anaconda, and this Python/Anaconda has no comrades at all to help, they can still jump out at will, and this is not a victory for the Eagle, this is a loss, because Eagles can only fight, while Anacondas and Pythons can do all kinds of useful stuff.

3 Commander flown Eagles would present a major problem? Compared to 3 player flown Vipers, not really. Compared to 3 player flown Vultures, not at all. 3 player flown Eagles, against one ferdelance? If the Eagles are competent, then maybe they can make the ferdelance run out of their range. Nothing else.

Would anyone in an Eagle expect to destroy a large ship that had the option to jump? If you're playing against other Commanders they'll always err on the side of caution, seeing them off is victory enough. NPCs are less likely to jump (although some will) so they could still get blown up. Also, what the Vulture can and can't do is really irrelevant to the pilot who can only afford an Eagle.

So anyway, let's buff the Eagle. This still leaves us with a few problems. Firstly, we need to buff the Sidewinder, it doesn't really do anything better than other ships do. We should probably make it faster, give it stronger shields and allow it to carry about 32 tons of cargo space. That should make it more of a viable ship and see more people in not Sidewinders.

Next up, we should take a look at some of the trade ships. The Hauler and Type 6 for a start. Neither are better than a Type 7 or Type 9. Do we really want all traders flying a Type 9 in a few months? It'll completely ruin the game and there'll be no point in playing or trading.

 

[BEKTOP 3APEMOB]

With all this Tanks discussion. I want to quote myself ) )

The main point is - when you change your old toyota corolla for bugatti veyron - you get the car about the same size but it's much faster, more powerful and maneuverable.
But when you change you corolla to this

it sure can take 20 buggaties crashing into it and carry more people than 20 buggatied , but it shouldn't be able to outrun and outmaneuver them.

And we don't have veyrons for eagles in-game. All we have is big tanks and lorries

Currently we can only spend our money on bigger, bulker, heavy ships. Why can't we upgrade in quality, not just size. I want a fast race car, not the best destroyer.

 

[Quineloe]

the eagle is fine as-is. If you're hitting above your belt in one then stick with a wing, otherwise it's perfectly capable at fulfilling it's role as intended.

What is its role?

 

[hanks01]

What is its role?

Pirate of the Hauler, scourge of the Sidewinder, gaargh!

 

[Cmdr Basskicker]

I just want to add, as someone who is still new to the game, that I didn't even consider getting an Eagle when I first started out. I looked at the Eagle's top speed vs other ships and thought, what is the point of being able to out manouver any ship out there if you can't also out run them? So I skipped the Eagle and went straight to the Viper.

Is giving the Eagle a speed buff really going to break the game(I would have bought one had I thought I was getting something other than a Sidewinder with an extra small hardpoint)? The thing still has paper shields and paper armor. Which still makes it the weakest, pure combat ship out there.

 

[Defacto]

Would anyone in an Eagle expect to destroy a large ship that had the option to jump? If you're playing against other Commanders they'll always err on the side of caution, seeing them off is victory enough. NPCs are less likely to jump (although some will) so they could still get blown up. Also, what the Vulture can and can't do is really irrelevant to the pilot who can only afford an Eagle.

So anyway, let's buff the Eagle. This still leaves us with a few problems. Firstly, we need to buff the Sidewinder, it doesn't really do anything better than other ships do. We should probably make it faster, give it stronger shields and allow it to carry about 32 tons of cargo space. That should make it more of a viable ship and see more people in not Sidewinders.

Next up, we should take a look at some of the trade ships. The Hauler and Type 6 for a start. Neither are better than a Type 7 or Type 9. Do we really want all traders flying a Type 9 in a few months? It'll completely ruin the game and there'll be no point in playing or trading.

Make the Sidewinder stealthy. It's a small ship, with weak engines and weak power plant, so it makes sense for it to have low emissions. It started out as a naval scout ship. It could be a sneaky and inconspicious ship.

Same for the Hauler. Make it a great little smuggling van, extremely low emissions, really inconspicious. It has the cargo space that the Sidewidner doesn't, although the Sidewinder has speed and some combat capability.

For the Type 6/7 versus the Type 9, I think that the Type 6 and Type 7 could have a bit longer jump range, or maybe be allowed to fit better FSD's. Also, more inconspicious and lower emissions than Type 9. I picture the Lakon 9 as something built for trade in the core worlds, while the Type 6 and 7 is more built for also being capable of trading in the less civilized systems, where you might want to have a long jump range to skip the nastier systems, and a long fuel range since the distance between your trading stops are longer.

Also, the Type 6 can land at outposts. That's a great boon in less well-developed systems.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

Todays Jetfighters stay in service for a long time, being constantly upgraded up to a point where it isn't possible anymore or just to expensive.

That's why it might be an idea to put in a buyable, ship specific upgrade pack (one time, non configurable). This would make it a more expensive but slightly better ship.

The Eagle - in lore - received exactly this kind of treatment up to a point where it needed to be phased out and replaced. Just like the Mig 21, for instance, which is still used in some airforces but cannot compete with an F-22 Raptor.

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Make the Sidewinder stealthy. It's a small ship, with weak engines and weak power plant, so it makes sense for it to have low emissions. It started out as a naval scout ship. It could be a sneaky and inconspicious ship.

Same for the Hauler. Make it a great little smuggling van, extremely low emissions, really inconspicious. It has the cargo space that the Sidewidner doesn't, although the Sidewinder has speed and some combat capability.

They are already doing that in one of the next major updates.

 

[Defacto]

The Eagle - in lore - received exactly this kind of treatment up to a point where it needed to be phased out and replaced. Just like the Mig 21, for instance, which is still used in some airforces but cannot compete with an F-22 Raptor.

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They are already doing that in one of the next major updates.

But there's lots of modern aircraft, military, even that the Mig-21 can defeat and/or outrun. Should the Eagle not recieve the same treatment, then?
You say that it can not compete with an F-22 Raptor. I think that would be similar to an Eagle vs. Vulture dogfight. Is anyone saying that the Eagle should be better than the Vulture in a dogfight?

Now, in real life, a Mig-21 is slower than a F-22 raptor, but then, it's not like the Raptor is armored and shielded either. I guess comparisons like these can only go so far.

So, if they're giving those ships that treatment in the coming updates, would you not agree, that it would be suitable for the Eagle to recieve a speed increase like the one suggested in the OP?
Alternativelly, I guess the Eagle could also find a niche as a really stealthy fighter. That would be interesting, because we really do not have any ships like that right now.

 

[FuzzySpider]

What is its role?

A ship you buy for a few thousand creds and buff enough for basic combat for a few tens or hundreds of thousands of creds.

Please come back to reality. You deny Elite the right to have an interesting PvP aspect, based on some ridiculous notion of legacy and how the game should stick to it. Deal with it - Braben decided to add multiplayer into this game and there are all kinds of PvP action going on there already. And multiplayer part is what I wanted when I was playing Elite: Frontier and First Encounters - I think many others dreamt about it back then and now it's here, which is great.

Yes, it has an interesting PvP aspect though. There is piracy, wings, bountyhunting, community goals like the one at Lugh, and indeed there are scraps breaking out in space between people who find each other.

What there is not, and what was never promised, was a generic "pew pew pew" mechanic where anyone in any old ship would be able to take on anyone else in any other ship. This is Elite, not Wing Commander or Colony Wars.

I didn't suggest something that would brake PvE for you, I only want to improve PvP part (that you shouldn't care about with your way of thinking anyway).

For me PvP isn't all that different to PvE. The other players are part of the Elite universe when I encounter them, and my first instinct isn't to go all LEEROOOY JENKIIIINS!!! or challenge them to a duel. Making Eagles capable of taking on FDLs would indeed break PvP and PvE for me.

Another thing about my preference - I didn't know I would like the combat/piloting simulation by Frontier this much. But they made it the best in history of space-sims. And yes I would love to have places in-game where I could come and fight other players - maybe somewhat like Colosseums in Empire space.

I'm well aware of that and as I said, I really hope that you find the game you're looking for. But I think you're looking in the wrong place.

 

[Mephane]

A viper is triple the price isn't it? It's something you do have to put some effort in to get if you've just started out. Also a class A viper can set you back a good few million. While you can manage to blow that much on an Eagle you'd leave it so uttely underpowered it would be useless. The Eagle isn't designed to run any big weapons or use particularly powerful shields.

The price difference between an A-grade Eagle and Viper is about 1 million. I have one of each, the Eagle is worth ~1.7m and the Viper 2.7m. That price difference may be big percentage-wise, but as soon as you compare that with a Vulture (30m) or FDL (80m) in order to prove that the Eagle is so much cheaper than the Viper... then it actually isn't.

Would anyone in an Eagle expect to destroy a large ship that had the option to jump? If you're playing against other Commanders they'll always err on the side of caution, seeing them off is victory enough. NPCs are less likely to jump (although some will) so they could still get blown up. Also, what the Vulture can and can't do is really irrelevant to the pilot who can only afford an Eagle.

So anyway, let's buff the Eagle. This still leaves us with a few problems. Firstly, we need to buff the Sidewinder, it doesn't really do anything better than other ships do. We should probably make it faster, give it stronger shields and allow it to carry about 32 tons of cargo space. That should make it more of a viable ship and see more people in not Sidewinders.

Next up, we should take a look at some of the trade ships. The Hauler and Type 6 for a start. Neither are better than a Type 7 or Type 9. Do we really want all traders flying a Type 9 in a few months? It'll completely ruin the game and there'll be no point in playing or trading.

- Giving the Eagle more speed doesn't magically turn it into the bane of Anacondas; that spot will remain reserved for Vultures and FDLs. But it will make the Eagle very decent at what it is made for: dogfighting against other fighters.
- Despite how you ridicule the idea, I believe the Sidewinder should also a buff. In my opinion, some speed (to current Eagle speed) and I might imagine as a speciality a big buff to its cooling systems, so that it remains at a lower heat signature, which has effects such as longer silent running times, and more leniency when using equipment that produces a lot of heat (rail guns, beams).
- Regarding traders, it is my opinion that the smaller traders should gain some speed, too, and probably jump range; these ships could excel at rares trading similarly to the Asp (before anyonse says why take the more expensive Asp then - it still has the advantage of stronger shields and firepower than a Cobra).

 

[Defacto]

A ship you buy for a few thousand creds and buff enough for basic combat for a few tens or hundreds of thousands of creds.



Yes, it has an interesting PvP aspect though. There is piracy, wings, bountyhunting, community goals like the one at Lugh, and indeed there are scraps breaking out in space between people who find each other.

What there is not, and what was never promised, was a generic "pew pew pew" mechanic where anyone in any old ship would be able to take on anyone else in any other ship. This is Elite, not Wing Commander or Colony Wars.



For me PvP isn't all that different to PvE. The other players are part of the Elite universe when I encounter them, and my first instinct isn't to go all LEEROOOY JENKIIIINS!!! or challenge them to a duel. Making Eagles capable of taking on FDLs would indeed break PvP and PvE for me.



I'm well aware of that and as I said, I really hope that you find the game you're looking for. But I think you're looking in the wrong place.

Hang on here - as said multiple times: Doing this will not make the Eagle a stronger combat ship than the Viper, Vulture or ferdelance. It almost sounds like you think we're suggesting to replace the hardpoints of the eagle with heavies, or triple the shielding or something like that. The eagle is still fragile, the eagle still has 3 small hardpoints. The only thing suggested is an increase in top speed. Note, that even with this increase, the Eagle would only be marginally faster than a ferdelance.

I do not see how giving the Eagle a useful combat niche (and a cheap throwaway ship or ''noob'' ship is not a useful combat niche) would make it more ''pew pew'' so please drop that. If anything, more variation, with more ships that vary in strengths and weaknesses would make the combat in ED more varied and deep.

The price difference between an A-grade Eagle and Viper is about 1 million. I have one of each, the Eagle is worth ~1.7m and the Viper 2.7m. That price difference may be big percentage-wise, but as soon as you compare that with a Vulture (30m) or FDL (80m) in order to prove that the Eagle is so much cheaper than the Viper... then it actually isn't.

Especially when you consider how earning credits speeds up as you can afford more and more expensive equipment, and also, how earning money is easy.

 

[hanks01]

Yes, it has an interesting PvP aspect though. There is piracy, wings, bountyhunting, community goals like the one at Lugh, and indeed there are scraps breaking out in space between people who find each other.

I second this and will also add that when I went to the Military plan goal in Lugh my FDL get jumped and destroyed by an FDL and two Vultures. I could have made a couple of jumps and got in my Cobra but instead I bought a new Eagle, went back in and scooped up any plans that others had missed and weren't going to get... essentially being a Vulture (oh the irony.) It certainly had its place in that combat zone, too small to be a threat to federal forces that, outside of one encounter with an aggressive Vulture, meant I was free to do as I pleased.

Whilst there are some that will trade grind for the biggest ships, for a lot of us the price of the big ships means it takes a lot of time to afford the rebuy and/or fully kit them, so jumping into cheap small target ships in combat intensive scenarios is a great option, and using the Eagle for that is a lot of fun. For me fun is much more important than credits per hour.

 

[BEKTOP 3APEMOB]

I'm well aware of that and as I said, I really hope that you find the game you're looking for. But I think you're looking in the wrong place.

I prefer to see you go somewhere instead This is actually your main argument in this whole thread. You just masked it better before.

 

[Defacto]

I second this and will also add that when I went to the Military plan goal in Lugh my FDL get jumped and destroyed by an FDL and two Vultures. I could have made a couple of jumps and got in my Cobra but instead I bought a new Eagle, went back in and scooped up any plans that others had missed and weren't going to get... essentially being a Vulture (oh the irony.) It certainly had its place in that combat zone, too small to be a threat to federal forces that, outside of one encounter with an aggressive Vulture, meant I was free to do as I pleased.

Whilst there are some that will trade grind for the biggest ships, for a lot of us the price of the big ships means it takes a lot of time to afford the rebuy and/or fully kit them, so jumping into cheap small target ships in combat intensive scenarios is a great option, and using the Eagle for that is a lot of fun. For me fun is much more important than credits per hour.

I don't see why you would pick an Eagle for that. A Vulture has more potential cargo space, more survivability and more mass to escape if something goes bad.
I don't understand the rebuy argument, why does it even matter when you can just escape with strong ships? In the Lugh war, 8 federalis in Anacondas and ferdelances attacked my Cobra at the beacon. First they went for my wingmate in an Eagle, he got completely obliterated because why wouldn't he? He's actually slower than them despite he being in a fighter, and being an actual player, he still commands much more attention than most ships.

I could escape at 50% hull in my cobra. Reparation cost was a few thousand credits, a lot cheaper than what my friend in the Eagle had to pay.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Hang on here - as said multiple times: Doing this will not make the Eagle a stronger combat ship than the Viper, Vulture or ferdelance. It almost sounds like you think we're suggesting to replace the hardpoints of the eagle with heavies, or triple the shielding or something like that. The eagle is still fragile, the eagle still has 3 small hardpoints. The only thing suggested is an increase in top speed. Note, that even with this increase, the Eagle would only be marginally faster than a ferdelance.

Right...

No one is saying ''Make the Eagle as good of a combat ship as the Vulture/Fdl!'', but I do think that the Eagle should be comparable to them.

So comparable how? This is a combat dedicated ship. Do you not want it comparable to those in combat?

I do not see how giving the Eagle a useful combat niche (and a cheap throwaway ship or ''noob'' ship is not a useful combat niche) would make it more ''pew pew'' so please drop that. If anything, more variation, with more ships that vary in strengths and weaknesses would make the combat in ED more varied and deep.

Being a cheap throwaway ship is a superb combat niche when you consider that being destroyed costs creds. This game has a ship that new players can buy, modestly upgrade, and take out to fight other ships without worrying about going bankrupt almost instantly. If the Eagle didn't fill this role you'd need to get another ship to do just that.

The price difference between an A-grade Eagle and Viper is about 1 million. I have one of each, the Eagle is worth ~1.7m and the Viper 2.7m. That price difference may be big percentage-wise, but as soon as you compare that with a Vulture (30m) or FDL (80m) in order to prove that the Eagle is so much cheaper than the Viper... then it actually isn't.

It isn't cheaper when you're running cobras, asps, or whatever else parked in stations because you can afford multiple ships. It's a lot cheaper when you're starting out and just trying to find your way in the Elite universe. That is basically what the Eagle is designed for in game. It was the starting ship in Frontier and was the starting ship for those of us who were playing this in beta.

An small increase in Eagle performance wouldn't bork the game at all. But if it was increased to the point where it could take on a FDL or vulture with a view to destroying them it would. A modest increase in performance would merely reduce the value of vipers, cobras, and adders. We'd get people asking for those to be buffed then, and power creep would enter.