holy crap.. just got a warthog...

[Magic Man]

The only trouble is that TM no longer makes a rudder and TARGET does not support non-TM devices. So, I went so far to write my own USB firmware so my rudder can work with TARGET and I can apply a running average filter on the noisy signal.

Ahhhhh, Hempstead from the SimHQ forums! You know, I was doing a search a little while back about getting non TM rudder pedals to work in TARGET and came across Hempstick. Didn't twig until some time after that it was to do with the same guy who was querying the same issue on SimHQ - even sent you a PM there

I've switched over to Slaw pedals and have no issues at all but would really like to bring them under the umbrella of TARGET - you have to go to the extreme of a new firmware then (as hinted in your Hempstick stuff) to "impersonate" a TM device? Did actually query the possibility of this with Slaw himself.

No way at all it can be fooled by careful registry editing I don't suppose? or does TARGET look directly at the hardware (rather than what the registry tells it is there...) ?

 

[janmb]

I actually prefer the X-55, because it has universal switches and buttons that aren't marked specifically for the A-10C.
I do play DCS A-10C with it and it works great. I can actually map more functions to the X-55 because it has more switches and knobs then the Warthog does.

True for the throttle, not so much for the stick.

The button layout on the warthog stick is decades better than the x55.

 

[Khyber GT]

well you can always run x55 throttle and warthog stick if someone wanted too. I wouldn't because I like twist (even knowing i have sim racing pedals)

 

[Maxwellou]

WHY OH GOD WHY DID I LOOKED AT THIS THREAD !

Didn't get a warthog because of the yaw not being there but now... I'm almost convinced to buy a set of pedals in addition.
But, what will I do with my X-52 ?
Need to find a buyer... Need warthog...
Next month perhaps...

Just a question, is it trully better than the X-52 ? As anyone made the jump to confirm that the difference is visible ?

EDIT: Found a buyer and the pedals I want...
I'm waiting a little now before buying these beauty

 

[Hempstead]

Ahhhhh, Hempstead from the SimHQ forums! You know, I was doing a search a little while back about getting non TM rudder pedals to work in TARGET and came across Hempstick. Didn't twig until some time after that it was to do with the same guy who was querying the same issue on SimHQ - even sent you a PM there

I've switched over to Slaw pedals and have no issues at all but would really like to bring them under the umbrella of TARGET - you have to go to the extreme of a new firmware then (as hinted in your Hempstick stuff) to "impersonate" a TM device? Did actually query the possibility of this with Slaw himself.

No way at all it can be fooled by careful registry editing I don't suppose? or does TARGET look directly at the hardware (rather than what the registry tells it is there...) ?

I don't think it's possible to fool it with registry editing... and people on SimHQ had already tried and failed when Warthog just came out. Kernel hacking would be possible... ;-) But that's going way too far, IMHO.

As to telling people how to do it... I am worried about DMCA. I live in the Land of the Free To Be Sued ---- not exactly wise to test DMCA. It's a very simple thing to do if you have access to the source code of the firmware (and with Hempstick, you do have the source code. I did it in a weekend on a hunch inspired by folx on SimHQ's failed attempts, including assembling parts of my pre-Hempstick old code, trying out the idea and testing whether the idea works). But if you have a firmware source code already, it's a 10 second change to get it to work (depending on your code though). Like with Hempstick, it can be done in 10 second if you know what to do (two lines of declaration changes, press the "Run" button and done; you figure out what to do, and you do it. I have nothing to do with it. I only provide an OpenSource code base with which that capability is legitimate for other purposes. In fact, every USB device library I know has such capability.... it just have to have that capability otherwise the device library is pretty much useless. Can't fault me on that one. ;-).


But if you "sell" your product, it would NOT be advisable to do so as you might get sued (disclaimer, I am not a lawyer).

I might support MFG Crosswind's sensor, MLX90363, in Hempstick (in fact, I got it half working... but haven't done much about it for a year since). But with the sensor Slaw uses.... no way in hell would I ever support that.

To be honest, almost all newer games/sims can do multiple USB controllers, including E : D. So, having the rudder under control of TARGET is not exactly essential. The only reason I have my rudder under TARGET control is for the ability to curve the response. Because I have way too much resolution to waste, so I allocate more to the center region where I need more resolution for fine aiming. Other than that, there is really not a good reason to have rudder under TARGET.

 

[Rankaze]

The only downside to my Warthog is it makes my Saitek Pro Combat pedals feel extremely cheap.

Of course, that'sounds because they are. In three months of light usage, they'be already broken once (I took them apart and fixed them myself). I really need to get better pedals. I know about the Crosswinds, but what are these Slaw pedals I keep hearing about?

 

[Archvillain]

So, having the rudder under control of TARGET is not exactly essential.

I can't speak for Magic Man, but while Yaw works fine without Target, each pedal also has an axis, and it would be nice to be able to use those for lateral thrust (eg depress right pedal for lateral right thrust, left pedal for left thrust). You can't do that in Elite because the lateral thrust assume both directions are one axis, joystick-style, or buttons that are either full on or full off. Target might be useful for getting the most out of the extra pedal features, but yeah, not needed for yaw (other than response curves).

Out of curiosity, what is it about the sensors that Slaw uses that means you would never support them?

 

[Magic Man]

Yep, as above, I would like to take advantage of axis curves and other progeamming TARGET offers really.
...and, what is wrong with the Slaw sensor? Read the back and fore bit on SimHQ a while ago before Milan switched his sensor but I thought the concensus was that even though I think it was basically a matter of the adc chain, end result was that they were both far more sensitive and accurate than a human (rather than a trace) would ever notice.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I know about the Crosswinds, but what are these Slaw pedals I keep hearing about?

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131112

 

[Hempstead]

I can't speak for Magic Man, but while Yaw works fine without Target, each pedal also has an axis, and it would be nice to be able to use those for lateral thrust (eg depress right pedal for lateral right thrust, left pedal for left thrust). You can't do that in Elite because the lateral thrust assume both directions are one axis, joystick-style, or buttons that are either full on or full off. Target might be useful for getting the most out of the extra pedal features, but yeah, not needed for yaw (other than response curves).

Out of curiosity, what is it about the sensors that Slaw uses that means you would never support them?

Well.... both Milan of MFG Crosswind and I independently chose the same Melexis Hall sensors for a very good reason (Milan & I actually talked about this) -- it's integrated with a small CPU with DSP module on it. It means, Melexis, the manufacturer of the sensor processes its own signal, including amplification, DSP filtering, scaling, and even curving and then output to DAC, all in one package. It means, I don't have to process "THEIR" signal. After all, "they" know the characteristics of their own signal better than I do. Man, don't make me process your signal, and an analog signal at that! It's a $5 chip (in bulk, but could go up to $11 if you buy just one). I pay $5 for an integrated solution so all I have to do is program the chip and read the resulting values. That's it. And the Melexis Hall chips even has an Automatic Gain Controller on die, meaning I can be real sloppy at magnet choices/placement/alignment. I just throw in a toy grade Neo-Magnet on it, and it worked like a charm at distance of 1mm, to 2cm... whatever. Gives me a huge flexibility in designing the mechanism for holding the magnets and the sensor chip.

With Slaw's MaRS sensor... catchy name... Slaw went with a Hall chip with output of raw analog signal, and then throw in an additional DSP processor to process that signal. It's a heroic engineering effort, no less, but ultimately can be solved with a $5 chip with minimal fuzz (and if memory serves, BMW seems to agree with me on this one, as they used an MLX Hall chip on the swivel headlamp of their cars). If all that heroic engineering effort does resulted in worthy or essential improvements on the resolution and latency needed for a rudder or joystick, ya sure... but the fact is that I don't see any of the benefit. Sure, the 120MHz Atmel ARM MCUs I use in Hempstick do have DSP instructions and they are fast (and I just got my hand on a board with new an Atmel MCU that runs over 500MHz), but I would have to put in the same amount of engineering efforts as Slaw has done for his DSP processor (maybe even more), but I can avoid all that by using a $5 sensor chip.

I mean, what do I get out of throwing in such engineering efforts? Nada! Not in terms of functionality, not in terms of dollar & cents! No way, Jose!

Note that, this is not to diss Slaw's result or functionality. It's just that it makes absolutely no sense for "me" to support it.

 

[Huros]

Of course for proper immersion you might want to consider this searching for "3DOF". For a cool home built version search youtube for "Elite Dangerous DK2 3DOF" close to what i would go for but i think i would want the custom chair that there is a tread about somewhere. Guy started building it through Beta, looked awesome. Stick a warthog on it and pedals, bolt it on to a 6DOF frame with DK2 or the consumer release, and welcome to 3301....

 

[Magic Man]

@Hempstead, cheers for the reply.

 

[Archvillain]

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation!
My guess would be that Slaw went the extra mile of handling the signal processing because the Melexis all-in-one package either wasn't around back in the day when he was first developing hall-effect projects, or it wasn't reliably available in Poland at that time. (I currently live in the USA, and one of the most fantastic things about living here is the massive economy, especially now that internet commerce is dominant - simply being able to source whatever obscure component I want for any weird niche project I'm working on is an ongoing delight. Living in a smaller country years ago, things were completely different).

 

[Commander Dave]

When you have it setup DO NOT PLAY THE GAME WITH YOUR COMMANDER! Do the tutorials a few times especially the take off and landing ones. RETRAIN the muscle memory. You WILL regret it if you dive straight in.

THIS!
Do not play with your commander immediately.
Take it easy.

 

[Hempstead]

I don't know the real reasons why Slaw went with the analog Hall sensor and DSP solution, so I am guessing here.

The Melexis Hall chips are great in terms of integration and ease of use. However, they require a USD $1700 PTC-04 hardware programer to program. This is so 1990s when it was a common practice to charge an arm and a leg for development tools, like $7000 compiler, etc. However, Melexis came out with the new MLX90363, which requires no programmer. All you have to do is write your protocol stack via the SPI bus to program and operate it, and everything is digital (no DAC output). And that's what MFG Crosswind later updated the sensor to. This $1700 programmer might have been the "obstacle" for Slaw, as the small volume does not justify the expense of the hardware sensor programmer. This "expense" is really off putting, if not down right prohibitive. I had to bite the bullet... but luckily I live in the US and have the spare cash to throw into my "hobby." Even that, I was quite unhappy about it. I could have used that money for other better purposes.

With today's common practice that they charge minimal for development tools, Slaw probably didn't have to pay any dollar for the compiler or even IDE for the DSP processor. Perhaps just some small amount for a hardware programmer for the DSP. Unfortunately for Slaw, MLX90363 was released after he already did the DSP development for that analog signal Hall sensor.... he could continue with his DSP solution... nothing wrong with that. It's not like MLX90363 does any better in terms of resolution or refresh rate anyway... why put in more efforts without any gain? Unless, you start looking at the BOM and complexity of code/circuitry... But, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Unless you are a former tactical driver like me, do not just jump into using the Warthog. It's worth the money and hype, but it is also pro gear. Non-pilots may not be used to the higher than normal forces needed for the stick and triggers, as an example. Your deadzone selections are critical. Carefully walk through all the TARGET profiles, and watch your control settings like a hawk in Elite itself.

It will take you at least a month until you find a setup that is the best for your playstyle, and get used to the feel of this wonderful stick. You will never want to go back.

I would smash any yaw pedals with my linebacker's feet in days. Frontier has deliberately nerfed yaw. I just use the "A" and "D" keys. It works.

 

[Archvillain]

I would smash any yaw pedals with my linebacker's feet in days.

No, I think with good pedals you'd be fine. Presumably you can drive a car without smashing it? Then you can drive a spaceship
I have my pedals set up so they will recess further than my legs can extend - there is no stomping the pedal to the metal, no way to impart violent force. For max yaw I just fully extend the leg, as gentle or violently as I want, it makes little difference. To impart any kind of force on the pedals, I'd have to slam both legs out at the same time, which (a) is a motor-skills coordination issue that shouldn't be a problem, and (b) would simply push the pedals away from the chair, or the chair away from the pedals. (Or both)

That said, I'm sure there are also plenty of pedals that wouldn't stand up to heavy use, but hey, 80% of everything is crap.

 

[CMDR Holycow]

Now, the joystick isn't really heavy to move around as has been erronoeously slewed about in this thread.. but some of the buttons ARE! Especially the second trigger (red button) on the primary face of the joystick. I used that for my KWS for a while, but had a hard time holding it in for 10 seconds. Now I use VA for KWS exclusively.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

No, I think with good pedals you'd be fine. I have my pedals set up so they will recess further than my legs can extend - there is no stomping the pedal to the metal, no way to impart violent force. For max yaw I just fully extend the leg, as hard or gentle as I like, it makes no difference. To impart any kind of force on the pedals, I'd have to slam both legs out at the same time, which (a) is a motor-skills coordination issue that shouldn't be a problem, and (b) would simply push the pedals away from the chair, or the chair away from the pedals. (Or both)

That said, I'm sure there are also plenty of pedals that wouldn't stand up to heavy use, but hey, 80% of everything is crap.

More like 83%....

Aircraft rudder pedals on my F-16A were separated by a center console, and built out of tougher stuff than the entertainment gear used by gamers. Those rudder pedal tunnels were both a curse, and a blessing. You can imagine the curse part. But, they did allow you to separate motor control for legs and feet more efficiently than gaming gear, in my opinion. I also had kinesthetic advantages not available to PC/console gaming: literal seat of the pants flying.

I played American-rules football in my youth, and I played defense. I free-hand climbed mountains in the southwest. I'm the player character called on to kick the door in. (I also did this on orders from my Colonel. I also put people in dumpsters [bins], and swimming pools). Almost able to do the Vader Throat Lift.

Ordinary game gear does not last long for me.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Now, the joystick isn't really heavy to move around as has been erronoeously slewed about in this thread.. but some of the buttons ARE! Especially the second trigger (red button) on the primary face of the joystick. I used that for my KWS for a while, but had a hard time holding it in for 10 seconds. Now I use VA for KWS exclusively.

That button is Weapons Release. It's meant to be hard to use. And I *do* mean Weapon with a capital "W". Usually a W/B-61.

Don't have Voice Attack, as my cornpone accent causes trouble anyway. Don't have a good answer on re-mapping the KWS. TARGET, maybe? 10 seconds on my thumb with arthritis hurts, so I agree on the hassle.

 

[aRtFuL]

No, I think with good pedals you'd be fine. Presumably you can drive a car without smashing it? Then you can drive a spaceship

Pedaling for driving are quite different from flight through.

Driving acceleration and braking is generally a more gentle exercise - because you can spin out your car if you lock your brake in game just like in real life.

Flight pedaling with yaw is a far more violent action when you are in a dogfight.