Military Spec - Sidey and Eagle

[Caspar]

Two of my favourite ships ... The Sidewinder and Eagle.

Does anyone else wish there were slightly tougher military variants? Not hugely improved but hardened to a military standard. 20% more everything. Hull / shield / cap / thrust / power plant / cooling.

It would be a good way of reusing assets / adding variation. I wouldn't expect them to be cheap.

Yay? Nay?

 

[Yurisputnik]

Why not, variety being the spice of life. A bit like shoe-horning a 3 litre engine into a Hillman Imp or something akin to that. I'd buy that for a dollar

 

[Caspar]

Why not, variety being the spice of life. A bit like shoe-horning a 3 litre engine into a Hillman Imp or something akin to that. I'd buy that for a dollar

It's been a long time since I've seen an Imp on the road. We had cars with character then.

Poll showing a strong bias towards Mil spec versions of those little ships.

 

[Moriarte]

Nay. You don't do the same thing over and over and over again. You do the next thing. Plenty of ships to draw from previous games. I'd rather see them.

 

[Obtuse]

I'd prefer if they added military spec modules, like hull reinforcement, sheild generators ect. Now the ability to maybe upgrade your hardpoints up by 1 (with major power increases maybe?) would interesting too.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Nay.

First of all it's kind of immersion breaking. If an old and outdated ship like the Eagle can be respecced to be 20% more powerful, then a modern vehicle such as a Vulture could be respecced to be 50% or 60% more powerful.

Secondly it would ruin game balance. If you run into 2 or 3 Eagles you just wouldn't know what you were facing. That might be ok if you're a wing of vultures, but if you're in a Type 9 or Type 7 it's a different story. Do you deploy your hardpoints and fight or try to run?

Thirdly there is no point at all to this. If you want a more powerful ship then get a Viper, or equip a Cobra for combat. Why artificially buff beginner craft to punch above their weight?

 

[Roybe]

Nay.

First of all it's kind of immersion breaking. If an old and outdated ship like the Eagle can be respecced to be 20% more powerful, then a modern vehicle such as a Vulture could be respecced to be 50% or 60% more powerful.

Secondly it would ruin game balance. If you run into 2 or 3 Eagles you just wouldn't know what you were facing. That might be ok if you're a wing of vultures, but if you're in a Type 9 or Type 7 it's a different story. Do you deploy your hardpoints and fight or try to run?

Thirdly there is no point at all to this. If you want a more powerful ship then get a Viper, or equip a Cobra for combat. Why artificially buff beginner craft to punch above their weight?

Because there is nothing that should be considered 'beginner'. Every ship should have a purpose...and some can be multipurpose with given trade offs. You can put on military grade hardware, upgrade hull units, etc. power consumption would be a problem, in the smaller ships, but it shouldn't be a problem with proper power management. If it is, that does need to be fixed. Eagles are mil specced in conflict zones, that should be doable by the players. Pretty sure you can do these things already, but the power would probably be the shortcoming. (Probably would not be able to travel with those ships specced that way..but a respec and off they go!)

BTW, there is a commander I fly with that does fight with Sidies and Eagles in Conflict Zones....not sure how he speccs though. He was a tough little nut to crack in those areas I watched him in.

 

[Herik]

Two of my favourite ships ... The Sidewinder and Eagle.

Does anyone else wish there were slightly tougher military variants? Not hugely improved but hardened to a military standard. 20% more everything. Hull / shield / cap / thrust / power plant / cooling.

It would be a good way of reusing assets / adding variation. I wouldn't expect them to be cheap.

Yay? Nay?

Sure, 'Eve' does it;...tsk tsk.

But don't get me wrong; I voted yes.

 

[Caspar]

Nay.

Thirdly there is no point at all to this. If you want a more powerful ship then get a Viper, or equip a Cobra for combat. Why artificially buff beginner craft to punch above their weight?

Oh right. So the Eagle and Sidey fly just like a Viper or Cobra .. In fact all ships fly the same but moar moneh = moar poweh?

No.

It's about the loving ships that feel great to fly and having a variant that is just a bit tougher.

Btw, regarding 'immersion breaking' - the future history of Elite is littered with variation and upgrades. Original Sidewinders never had jump drives. I think the original Python was actually owned by a completely different company IIRRC. Does the Mini Cooper on the road today resemble anything devised by Sir Alec Issigonis? Things change.

 

[TMC]

Nay.

First of all it's kind of immersion breaking. If an old and outdated ship like the Eagle can be respecced to be 20% more powerful, then a modern vehicle such as a Vulture could be respecced to be 50% or 60% more powerful.

Secondly it would ruin game balance. If you run into 2 or 3 Eagles you just wouldn't know what you were facing. That might be ok if you're a wing of vultures, but if you're in a Type 9 or Type 7 it's a different story. Do you deploy your hardpoints and fight or try to run?

Thirdly there is no point at all to this. If you want a more powerful ship then get a Viper, or equip a Cobra for combat. Why artificially buff beginner craft to punch above their weight?

I think the answer to your third question/statement can be found in your second one. By buffing the beginner craft, they could fool unsuspecting PCs and catch them off guard. But then again, it could just be because he said its his favorite ships, maybe because they are cheap, small, and agile, and does not want larger ships.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Because there is nothing that should be considered 'beginner'. Every ship should have a purpose...

Yes indeed. And the purpose of the Eagle and Sidewinder is to introduce new players to the game. Two ships with which new players can smash and destroy to learn about insurance before they get an Asp and a fatal collision really hurts. Two ships that teach new players the intricacies of outfitting, without costing an absolute fortune to modestly upgrade. One ship that has a purpose in being the beginner vehicle when you're aimless, penniless, and harmless, and one ship that you can buy pretty quickly after 2 or 3 missions from a faction, so you learn a bit about shipyards and what a new ship entails.

They have a purpose, a very important purpose. Let's not ruin that purpose and start wrecking ship balance. Launch Python notwithstanding Elite has a pretty superb balance of ships at the moment.

I think the answer to your third question/statement can be found in your second one. By buffing the beginner craft, they could fool unsuspecting PCs and catch them off guard.

So every time I am taking my Type 9 on a hauling trip I have to worry about running into ships the size of bugs because they've possibly been upgraded with some magic tech (that doesn't seem to be available to more advanced ships)? That'll make the feel of the game a bit ridiculous, to see Sidewinders taking on and smashing allcomers with ease.

Furthermore, the Eagle doesn't actually need a buff.

[video=youtube;riR3A5PrI3A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riR3A5PrI3A[/video]

It just needs skilled hands.

 

[Caspar]

That'll make the feel of the game a bit ridiculous, to see Sidewinders taking on and smashing allcomers with ease.

You're blowing the concept WAY out of proportion here. Don't get carried away now. Based on my spec, I've boosted most useful attributes by 20% but not buffed weapons or hard points in the slightest. As they're the lightest ships, they'll never mass lock a target. How, all of a sudden, are they suddenly slaying every player in the game?

 

[DidierDrbois]

Furthermore, the Eagle doesn't actually need a buff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riR3A5PrI3A

It just needs skilled hands.

Indeed it doesn't! I use the same guns, what's your internals? I am definitely fetching my Eagle tomorrow!

OP, going to have to be a nay from me, sorry. With 'special' modules coming soon (TM), just don't see the point.

 

[FuzzySpider]

You're blowing the concept WAY out of proportion here. Don't get carried away now. Based on my spec, I've boosted most useful attributes by 20% but not buffed weapons or hard points in the slightest. As they're the lightest ships, they'll never mass lock a target. How, all of a sudden, are they suddenly slaying every player in the game?

The threats to trading ships would be increased massively, particularly if you're talking about a 20% increase in pricepoint for these ships as well as everything else. A 20% increase in all attributes is quite a huge buff.

Also, it isn't necessary for the game. By your own admission this is merely because those are your favorite ships. That's fair enough. But let's flip this and apply the exact same logic to the top end of the ship parade. Loads of people look at the Anaconda, Python and FDL and say "I really want that beast! But I just can't grind enough cash to afford it". So why don't we create a "no frills" low specced version of each? Maybe just a 20% drop in hull, shields, power, etc. Then people would get the ship they want. That's the exact same logic you're using here.

But think about what happens then. Actual ship balance is being erroded. What makes a ship, what makes an Eagle an Eagle and an Anaconda an Anaconda, is starting to ebb away. If you run into one of these ships you've no idea at all if it is going to be some standard or some hybrid thing. Now where are we? You pick the ship you want, because it looks cool/sounds cool/is your favorite, and you get the version you want that suits how you play. Ships aren't so much ships as they are simply avatars. You don't pick a ship because that ship does the role you want to perform, but you pick a ship because you like it and summon up some MacGuffin to say it does the job you want it to do.

Indeed it doesn't! I use the same guns, what's your internals? I am definitely fetching my Eagle tomorrow!

OP, going to have to be a nay from me, sorry. With 'special' modules coming soon (TM), just don't see the point.

I'm not that pilot. I wish I could fly an Eagle like that, but nope, my Eagle skills are a bit lacking. I'm more of a heavies person. I love flying the thing though.

 

[Philip Foster]

An Eagle with one of it's hardpoints upgraded to a class 2, upgraded shields, armour and a second utility point for about the price of an Adder would be cool.

 

[Tarman]

If the milspec versions had different requirements and restrictions than civilian versions, it would add quite a bit to the game, while also being a slick re-use of ship assets codewise.

Milspec frames to me would need milspec fuel and drives at the very least, and probably be more restricted to specific kit in Outfitting; less access to cargo bay modules, for example, or advanced exploration scanners. The smuggling bonus for the original ships wouldn't apply to milspecs of them; let's say that milspec engine kicks up your sensor sig enough to negate that smuggling boost. They should be different to kit and care for than the civilian frame, not merely the same ship upgunned. And while a military Sidey would probably never outgun a Viper, it'd be a nice upgrade ship for a booming-yet-small local police force. We can't forget the NPC market here.

Finally I'd lock them behind a faction rep wall, so that you'd need to earn access to a milspec frame, in the same vein as the Clipper and Dropship currently. Repwall would keep them out of the hands of everybody and their space gramma unless they put in the time to earn them in the first place.

 

[Dim Reaper]

The re-using of models for something like this sounds like a good idea.

I wouldn't like to see it for other ships, but for these two it would give a few more options to more experienced pilots. A slight name change such as Sidewinder-M would allow other pilots to see that they were up against a stronger ship. Perhaps have a ranking requirement to buy one, as we have with the dropship and clipper. I'd also suggest a hefty price increase over standard - around the 500k to 1 mill area would fill the gap after the cobra.

 

[Vasious]

Arent they already Military ships that have been surplused
Eagle Long Range Fighter
&
Sidewinder Naval Scout

Presumably you can re-mil spec them by fitting them with Military composite armour and All "B" Rated modules

*edit*

I enjoy taking the Sidewinder to conflict zones or RES

 

[Caspar]

The threats to trading ships would be increased massively, particularly if you're talking about a 20% increase in pricepoint for these ships as well as everything else. A 20% increase in all attributes is quite a huge buff.

Who said anything about price? You're letting your imagination run wild here. If you read the very first post - I clearly say that these ships wouldn't be cheap. I'd imagine that it's a small luxury for an inflated price. If your logic dictates that a Viper is better value for money, then fine. Buy a Viper. etc

Also, it isn't necessary for the game. By your own admission this is merely because those are your favorite ships. That's fair enough. But let's flip this and apply the exact same logic to the top end of the ship parade. Loads of people look at the Anaconda, Python and FDL and say "I really want that beast! But I just can't grind enough cash to afford it". So why don't we create a "no frills" low specced version of each? Maybe just a 20% drop in hull, shields, power, etc. Then people would get the ship they want. That's the exact same logic you're using here.

Yes, that's a natural thing for people to do. They take the ideas that they like and then discuss them in forums to see haat the vibe is like. The poll is showing favour in this regard. I've stated that they are two of my favourite ships .. not that they are the sum total of my ED gaming nirvana. I also like the Dropship and the Python. Big chunks of space sexiness that are not featured in this thread - because right now I'm rallying against the principle that you're championing; The Eagle and Sidewinder should be 'starter' ships. I completely disagree that they should be consigned to a single variant only used to move new players along a shipyard escalator. Adding a milspec variant delivers another dynamic - one that stops you looking at a Siewinder and simply thinking 'n00b'.

It's also clear what I'm suggesting - a hardened version of a standard ship. My logic is clearly flowing in one direction here. If others want to argue for 'ship lite' then sobeit. In fact - you could get direct feedback on this by starting a poll.

But think about what happens then. Actual ship balance is being erroded. What makes a ship, what makes an Eagle an Eagle and an Anaconda an Anaconda, is starting to ebb away. If you run into one of these ships you've no idea at all if it is going to be some standard or some hybrid thing. Now where are we? You pick the ship you want, because it looks cool/sounds cool/is your favorite, and you get the version you want that suits how you play. Ships aren't so much ships as they are simply avatars. You don't pick a ship because that ship does the role you want to perform, but you pick a ship because you like it and summon up some MacGuffin to say it does the job you want it to do.

You're going off on a tangent here. Again - I've been specific but this is speculation gone a bit wild. So let me put it to you another way. If FD crafted two new ship models called something completely different - but they happened to have the same characteristics (agility / power / slots / mount points etc) and set them at a higher price - say a couple of mil just for arguments sake - would you object to them?

 

[Caspar]

If the milspec versions had different requirements and restrictions than civilian versions, it would add quite a bit to the game, while also being a slick re-use of ship assets codewise.

Milspec frames to me would need milspec fuel and drives at the very least, and probably be more restricted to specific kit in Outfitting; less access to cargo bay modules, for example, or advanced exploration scanners. The smuggling bonus for the original ships wouldn't apply to milspecs of them; let's say that milspec engine kicks up your sensor sig enough to negate that smuggling boost. They should be different to kit and care for than the civilian frame, not merely the same ship upgunned. And while a military Sidey would probably never outgun a Viper, it'd be a nice upgrade ship for a booming-yet-small local police force. We can't forget the NPC market here.

Finally I'd lock them behind a faction rep wall, so that you'd need to earn access to a milspec frame, in the same vein as the Clipper and Dropship currently. Repwall would keep them out of the hands of everybody and their space gramma unless they put in the time to earn them in the first place.

Next time I have one of these ideas - I'm going to fence it through you - so you can add all the quality and detail