Sex, Gender, and (Imperial) Titles

[JughedJones]

No, replacing them with gender neutral versions. A title and a gender should be too entirely unrelated things - a title is something you earn, while your gender is simply something you are born with.

You're confusing sex and gender.

But, whatever. I'm gonna get outta here before I get in trouble.

 

[Hellhawk666]

Yeah, it's a valid point, but almost certainly it's just something the devs have left on the back burner for now, in anticipation of much more customisation coming in at a later time.

Patience, m'lady. It will happen.

 

[Shanaeri]

It's not gender bias, just the use of language like his and her, he and she. Now you could argue in 3300 that's gone away, but Galnet still uses those terms of addressing people, so I don't think it's lore related.

It's another one of those small things that needs tidying up at some point in time, like adding in a 'Right On Commander!' for when you rank up.

PS I don't think the imperial rank of prince is in the game yet, I thought Earl was as high as it went?

 

[Joe Spivey]

By the way, why is the word for mammaries filtered out by this forum? Since when are they taboo objects? I despair of the sexual immaturity of British culture sometimes.

Two reasons. Firstly, these forums are accessible by anyone who uses the Frontier site. Frontier produces games aimed at much younger audiences than ED so young children may be reading and those young children have parents who spend money on Frontier games. Some of those parents do not want their children exposed to common vernacular hence Frontier are respectful of their customer's wishes. Secondly. It's their damn site and they can have whatever rules they like.

 

[Crank Larson]

You're confusing sex and gender.

How so? In the context of my statement, sex is irrelevant...

 

[Daeron]

No, replacing them with gender neutral versions. A title and a gender should be too entirely unrelated things - a title is something you earn, while your gender is simply something you are born with.

Unless you're born a highborn, then your get both!

 

[DrakeAurum]

I think this is a sad oversight on the devs' part, and it would be nice if they could fix it - my vote would be to simply replace all Imperial ranks with gender-neutral terms for now.

In the longer term, once our characters are able to walk around and interact with each other, character gender and identity will presumably be more thoroughly defined, and that will be the best time to establish longer-term fixes.

 

[JughedJones]

How so? In the context of my statement, sex is irrelevant...

Well, sex is something you're born with. It's your anatomy and physical makeup, so I'm not sure how it would ever be 'irrelevant.' Gender is a construct that determines what roles we either choose or are forced to act out because of our sex.

You are not born with a gender, it is either something you choose or is foisted on you by way of social/cultural hegemony.

So. There's that.

 

[Ydiss]

No, replacing them with gender neutral versions. A title and a gender should be two entirely unrelated things - a title is something you earn, while your gender is simply something you are born with.

The suggestion was the use of Baron or Lord as titles for female pilots, in ed, is by design because, in the future, civilisation abolished gender bias and made titles non- gender specific.

Firstly, this is a huge assumption and is baseless in fact.

Secondly, if it were true, the titles would have been abolished and replaced. Abolishing only the female versions of titles would be an enormous step towards gender bias, not a step away from it.

Thirdly, it takes quite a large dose of ignorance to equality rights to assume the above is true in favour of the most likely reason: it's an over sight by FD.

There's such a thing as defending FD a little too blindly. There's nothing wrong with an oversight. But coming up with wildly nonsensical "solutions" that totally absolve FD of any "wrong doing" by suggesting ideas that male dominance is the preference is taking it way too far. And seems much more like someone feeling the need to have a pop at asserting their own outdated views on gender neutrality.

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I think this is a sad oversight on the devs' part, and it would be nice if they could fix it - my vote would be to simply replace all Imperial ranks with gender-neutral terms for now.

In the longer term, once our characters are able to walk around and interact with each other, character gender and identity will presumably be more thoroughly defined, and that will be the best time to establish longer-term fixes.

No need to replace them with gender neutral titles. All of the titles that are gender specific have female versions.

 

[Star-Hunter]

Well, sex is something you're born with. It's your anatomy and physical makeup, so I'm not sure how it would ever be 'irrelevant.' Gender is a construct that determines what roles we either choose or are forced to act out because of our sex.

You are not born with a gender, it is either something you choose or is foisted on you by way of social/cultural hegemony.

So. There's that.

pls, give us an example for both so we can understand the difference better.

 

[Armchair]

Sex and gender are synonymous. Only sjws think otherwise.

 

[Crank Larson]

Well, sex is something you're born with. It's your anatomy and physical makeup, so I'm not sure how it would ever be 'irrelevant.' Gender is a construct that determines what roles we either choose or are forced to act out because of our sex.

You are not born with a gender, it is either something you choose or is foisted on you by way of social/cultural hegemony.

So. There's that.

But that *is* my point. In 3300 gender is irrelevant, it is no longer "foisted on you". Other than that, it's just semantics.

 

[JughedJones]

pls, give us an example for both so we can understand the difference better.

Help me help you.

How can I be any more clear?

Sex = */Prostate/Testicles or Vagina/Ovaries/Uterus

Gender = Whatever society you live in has different rules/values/mores that you either choose or are forced to abide by determined by your sex.

Simple.

 

[Zap T. Rowsdower]

PS I don't think the imperial rank of prince is in the game yet, I thought Earl was as high as it went?

Yes and it's just over the count rank. And if there were female imperial titles they would realize that they have an Earl rank and a Count rank and that the female equivalent title for both is Countess. Because see a Earl is just an anglosaxon title for a count. Why? Because when the Normand showed up in England they didn't like the laughs the more germanic language oriented saxons were having, generally after saying "Hey guys! That guy is calling himself a CoUNT!". Of course the female title for the wife of an earl is still countess to this day. So if there were female version of the titles, the last two female ranks for the empire career atm would be Countess followed by Countess. Marquis/Marquess would make more sense really.

 

[JughedJones]

But that *is* my point. In 3300 gender is irrelevant, it is no longer "foisted on you". Other than that, it's just semantics.

why would this be a step forward?

why couldn't a woman embrace her sexuality and embrace the title if she chooses? why would she be forced to adopt the male version instead?

doesn't seem right to me. Ydiss already said that more eloquently than I though.

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Sex and gender are synonymous. Only sjws think otherwise.

interesting that they're two different words with different definitions.

but... I'll happily accept the moniker of 'social justice warrior' when you consider what the opposite must be.

 

[Crank Larson]

The suggestion was the use of Baron or Lord as titles for female pilots, in ed, is by design because, in the future, civilisation abolished gender bias and made titles non- gender specific.

Firstly, this is a huge assumption and is baseless in fact.

Secondly, if it were true, the titles would have been abolished and replaced. Abolishing only the female versions of titles would be an enormous step towards gender bias, not a step away from it.

Thirdly, it takes quite a large dose of ignorance to equality rights to assume the above is true in favour of the most likely reason: it's an over sight by FD.

There's such a thing as defending FD a little too blindly. There's nothing wrong with an oversight. But coming up with wildly nonsensical "solutions" that totally absolve FD of any "wrong doing" by suggesting ideas that male dominance is the preference is taking it way too far. And seems much more like someone feeling the need to have a pop at asserting their own outdated views on gender neutrality.

1. Sorry, didn't realise the Elite universe was based in fact.
2. If only a title exists, there is no gender bias. Where it came from isn't relevant if the same title applies to all for a given situation. Title and gender should *not* be related.
3. I'm sure it is an oversight. I didn't realise I was going to be taken so seriously...

Tell you what, why not take half male titles, and half female titles. Happy now?

 

[Myrogia]

The suggestion was the use of Baron or Lord as titles for female pilots, in ed, is by design because, in the future, civilisation abolished gender bias and made titles non- gender specific.

Firstly, this is a huge assumption and is baseless in fact.

Secondly, if it were true, the titles would have been abolished and replaced. Abolishing only the female versions of titles would be an enormous step towards gender bias, not a step away from it.

Thirdly, it takes quite a large dose of ignorance to equality rights to assume the above is true in favour of the most likely reason: it's an over sight by FD.

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No need to replace them with gender neutral titles. All of the titles that are gender specific have female versions.

This is not a huge assumption, and is certainly not baseless in fact. Something I'm sure you would realize had you read my previous post and actually cared for the truth over mindless rabble-rousing. I'll give the same example I gave previously.

Senator / Senatrix. One word is still in use, the other is not.

I'm sure that's an oversight by FD though, there's no way that a society might naturally remove a useless word from its lexicon.

Also, titles like "baron" are not male specific, it's simply a class of nobility, similar to how "private" is a rank in the military. "Baroness" would be the gender specific term.

 

[Crank Larson]

why couldn't a woman embrace her sexuality and embrace the title if she chooses? why would she be forced to adopt the male version instead?

She can. My point being that with only one title, there is no "male" version. It isn't me that can't let go of the gender associations.

 

[Ydiss]

1. Sorry, didn't realise the Elite universe was based in fact.
2. If only a title exists, there is no gender bias. Where it came from isn't relevant if the same title applies to all for a given situation. Title and gender should *not* be related.
3. I'm sure it is an oversight. I didn't realise I was going to be taken so seriously...

Tell you what, why not take half male titles, and half female titles. Happy now?

This is not a huge assumption, and is certainly not baseless in fact. Something I'm sure you would realize had you read my previous post and actually cared for the truth over mindless rabble-rousing. I'll give the same example I gave previously.

Senator / Senatrix. One word is still in use, the other is not.

I'm sure that's an oversight by FD though, there's no way that a society might naturally remove a useless word from its lexicon.

Also, titles like "baron" are not male specific, it's simply a class of nobility, similar to how "private" is a rank in the military. "Baroness" would be the gender specific term.

Fact: FD assumed male gender titles for females because of an abolishment of gender bias.

That's your assertion. You don't know it to be true any more than I know it to be false. But let's keep pushing your idea over the one that suggests FD actually missed something.

Senator is now used instead of Senatrix because the world moved away from gender bias?

Yeh, OK then... I'm sure sexual equality was all over that one in the history books. Senatrix was lost due to there rarely being female senators.

Keep fighting male power, guys

 

[JughedJones]

She can. My point being that with only one title, there is no "male" version. It isn't me that can't let go of the gender associations.

I don't find this to make any sense. Your point is: if there's only one title then there's no other? OK. I suppose you're right.

However, my intention wasn't to come off as obsessed, I merely wanted to point out what was clearly a misrepresentation of sex vs. gender. Too often during these conversations, the two become conflated
and the entire point is lost.