Has Elite been marketed wrongly?

[B33 ENN]

Glorious eye candy of glory, but is that really Elite? ...This isn't about the quality of the game or even whether you like the game. It's about whether the expectation of what the game is matches what is portrayed by FDs marketing department.

Firstly, let me say, you have to admit that video is cool compared to a lot of game marketing! Secondly, although you aren't able to have a useable external view, that does pretty much feel a lot like what I experience when I go for a spin around a RES.

I got the game I expected and I got the game I wanted. ...I got the game on the strength of the old Elite games. What about you lot?

Yup. Much the same as you, I purchased on the strength of Elite and Frontier: Elite II. ...The videos aren't representative...perhaps of a war-zone but certainly not of the game as a whole.

The same. I bought what I hoped would be a remake of the original BBC Micro/Archimedes game I played as a youth. I wasn't that taken with the gameplay of Elite II as much, but still enjoyed it.

Looking at the other three videos on that Steam Store page:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/359320

The second one seems quite reasonable in depicting in-game activities; the third just seems like a stylised advert showing the graphics fidelity with its slow motion display; and the last seems like some kind of show of how the Wings update can make co-op play fun.

All appear to use the in-game engine, except maybe the first one in places which I think does give an exaggerated impression. However, when you look at what Elite is up against, I don't think they have much choice if they are to grab the attention and get the exposure from the saturated gaming market of today where loud visuals are de rigueur.

Look at the marketing for any triple-A game these days, they are all wannabe move trailers now. Just looking at the expense the Star Citizen team go to to launch flashy advert after advert for that hype train month in month out to keep people interested, and bring in new pledgers.

Now, I understand your point, that the reality of a lot of the actual gameplay time spent in Elite is the patient planning, analysis of data, trial and error learning, and endless travelling in Supercruise from star to planet to station (something I think has not been well implemented and is responsible for the "space trucking" criticism). That's going to be unpopular with a new generation of players if they expect the entire game to play like the trailers. However, if you look at the EVE page:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/8500/

It has many videos also depicting and selling a very action packed experience, but form what I know of it, that isn't how the game is paced most of the time either.

Mate, we need to hope and pray that the Xboxers will play in a different universe or it's going to get infinitely worse. Mark my words.

My opinion is that most of them will move on fairly quickly when they realise how much "grinding" there is involved in progressing. Only those that really like the concept, and understand game mechanics like this, such as RPG/ARPG and strategy game players will stick around.

 

[Apos]

NPCs don't attack for no reason. If you get interdicted by them they scan and if you've nothing of value, move on.

I had an NPC conda find it funny to keep on trying to ram me when I was in a viper and had no chance of fighting, so I don't know, NPCs can quite as well.

 

[SCADVID]

I keep asking this, and its never answered convincingly but you get attacked and destroyed by an NPC, for 'no reason', no one bats and eye lid,

Why? NPCs aren't ats.

That's why.

PvP is full of them.

The younger generation was raised on group play, those who played video games in it's infancy (my first computer was a kit built Timex-Sinclair in '83) only had one game mode -- solo. MP would not come until over a decade later (MuDs don't count as the communities were s-e-v-e-r-e-l-y regulated; lan parties, were with friends). MP is nice if played with friends/family but public groups with moral/ethical concerns, nope. It's stranger danger stuff, and after seeing the worst the largest MMOs offer...solo play is perfect.

 

[bsnaylor]

Killing for no reason is a perfectly valid way of playing, like you said "you make YOUR OWN way". If that means senseless killing and "shoot-em-up", fine.
and as also said, you get attacked (and killed if you are unlucky) by NPCs for no reason. So what's the problem with "real" people doing it?
As for the trailer(s), they are cinematic, and quite clearly say so, as they are for pretty much every single game released.
Have you seen the trailers for WOW for example? Absolutely nothing like the point n click mmorpg that it is.

 

[ArkSeaJumper]

its a big sandbox, maybe new platforms could be started off in a far corner. Any who manage to get as far as Sol should be suitably matured

 

[syngyne]

Mate, we need to hope and pray that the Xboxers will play in a different universe or it's going to get infinitely worse. Mark my words.

I read an interview somewhere saying that the Xbox One and PC crowd would share the same background simulation but most likely not the same instances together, due to them not being able to deploy patches to both simultaneously (because of the Xbox One patch approval process). Has this changed?

 

[Branko]

The whole experience seems like a single player game with optional multiplayer tacked on.

Progression is rather grindy but on the other hand nothing is truly lost (you get your ship and modules back for 5% of the cost), which is a basically single player design honestly, not a "cutthroat galaxy" (their words) where you can strike it big - or go bust.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I think the OP has it wrong.. Elite is an open world game, you play how you want. I keep asking this, and its never answered convincingly but you get attacked and destroyed by an NPC, for 'no reason', no one bats and eye lid, the moment its another player, the world is apparently coming to an end. Seems like an illogical emotional response.

THe problem starts with the NPC attack for no reason. In Elite, that was all that happened really, other than a handful of very basic missions. Given the limitations of the technology, even that was good. But with E: D the game is big enough that the NPCs should not need to attack for no reason. They should attack for a good reason. But FD failed to introduce the mechanisms they designed for 'proper piracy', and failed to provide the tools (like a scanner in SC) that would allow a pirate to check before doing an interdiction. Then they made it easy for interdicted traders to just run away. So guess what: No NPCs and very few players do the 'proper piracy' thing (I have been inderdicted by one who did: I thought it was great), because they might as well just charge in and murder people as there are no real incentives to do anything else, and no real consequences if they do.

If they fixed that lot (much more important than much of what they have added in 1.1, 1.2 and plan to add in 1.3 from where I sit), then we might start to get away from the whining about being attacked for no good reason. Until then, it will continue, and even more people will run away to solo/Mobius to hide. Sad.

 

[NeilF]

Yesterday, en route to a community goal in the BV Pheonicis system, I got interdicted and then attacked. Not by a pirate, not by a bounty hunter, not by someone trying to prevent the goal from being met or someone looking to inquire about teaming up in a wing. This was someone who just wanted some PvP arena type combat.

This was, frankly, extremely irritating.

I've noticed around here a very large number of threads which basically ask for enhancements for PVP type combat. Many more threads demand that starter ships such as the Eagle are buffed to be able to compete with FDLs and Vultures. The common response to these threads are that this is Elite, duh, not EVE or some other arena shooter (I have said as much myself).

But why so many people who believe otherwise? A very large number of people appear to be here not to play Elite, but some other blast-a-thon game.

Those of you who have Steam installed, head on over to the Elite: Dangerous store page. They have 4 videos there to promote the game and all but one of them imply the game is basically glorious space battles of glory.

Spoiler

Look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwvjElmFCfE

Glorious eye candy of glory, but is that really Elite?

I got the game I expected and I got the game I wanted. But then I was never subjected to the marketing, I got the game on the strength of the old Elite games.

What about you lot?

NOTE: This isn't about the quality of the game or even whether you like the game. It's about whether the expectation of what the game is matches what is portrayed by FDs marketing department.

In the beta/gamma it was easy to have some PvP combat, as you knew you could go to one of the conflict zones, which were few and far between, or one or two anarchy nav beacons, and chances are there would be another CMDR there for the same reason you were.

However, now we're in the position where it's actually quite hard simply to have PvP combat (IMHO). This is one reason for my suggestion to create arenas specifically for PvP combat which are very easy to locate - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110531

There's a mirror suggestion to also have a similar method of introducing time trial races too - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110009

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I read an interview somewhere saying that the Xbox One and PC crowd would share the same background simulation but most likely not the same instances together, due to them not being able to deploy patches to both simultaneously (because of the Xbox One patch approval process). Has this changed?

No change that I have seen. There may also be networking issues, too.

 

[Apos]

Why? NPCs aren't ats.

That's why.

PvP is full of them.

The younger generation was raised on group play, those who played video games in it's infancy (my first computer was a kit built Timex-Sinclair in '83) only had one game mode -- solo. MP would not come until over a decade later (MuDs don't count as the communities were s-e-v-e-r-e-l-y regulated; lan parties, were with friends). MP is nice if played with friends/family but public groups with moral/ethical concerns, nope. It's stranger danger stuff, and after seeing the worst the largest MMOs offer...solo play is perfect.

Complaining about the bad side of a coin javing a great side is silly.

There is a lower spectrum of multiplayer and it's the bigger part, that's true. But multiplayer also brings games to new heights when they finally get to find a respectable amount of people who aren't a bunch of asses.

When I get to see like 20 star systems belonging to the alliance with democratic governments each, I'll say "we did that". And that will be much more satisfactory than "I did that" to be honest.

 

[rebelredneck]

I play solo and I am also one of the original 84's who wanted a modern version of Elite (and its sequels). Yes the OP is correct it has been marketed wrongly because of all the griefing that goes on in open world. Note the difference between griefing and piracy, I dont mind people playing as pirates, eg interdicting me to steal me goods, but as griefers just blast away for the sake off it.

The PvP angle could be settled so easily in open world by having a PvP button attached like WoW has which when switched on allows you to be attacked by other human players, when switched off prevents you being attacked by other human players. This would not only help repopulate open player with players like me who play solo, hence making the universe a better place. Griefers would only have npc's (and any other PvPer's willing to take them on) to shoot at, they would soon get bored and move on. This works well in WoW as I walk round with my PvP off and dont ever get bothered by stupid duals or other such PvP nonsense.

But until then I am sticking to solo especially when the console blasters come online.

 

[CMDRKNac]

I think the OP has it wrong.. Elite is an open world game, you play how you want. I keep asking this, and its never answered convincingly but you get attacked and destroyed by an NPC, for 'no reason', no one bats and eye lid, the moment its another player, the world is apparently coming to an end. Seems like an illogical emotional response.

Should look at players as interesting content, fighting them shouldn't be viewed soley as the 'dreaded PVP' And the thing is the Elite games always had combat as a core element of it. Its why I don't understand people who just want to be a trader etc.. You'll find me fighting, trading, exploring (and even mining when PP hits) because I understand its all part of the game. Thats Elite.

This.

And also, people suggesting 'arena modes', get out please. This is an open world game, not an arena shooter. Get used to """griefers""" or get out of open. What would be reasonably is to ask for a real crime & punishment system (something is coming 'soon'), instead of asking for "arena modes"; and I hope the NPC's get more aggressive and get good soon too, maybe if they get 'griefed' by NPC's they will stop complaining.

 

[CMDR Harada]

I can't say it's been marketed 'wrong', but maybe that some of the features have been 'enhanced for marketing purposes'. It sure looks good, doesn't it ? I've been playing for over a month now and have yet to receive my 'emergency transmission' for help. And, BTW, you won't be doing that in your base model Sidewinder 15 minutes after your first launch.

I also don't think the xbox crowd will wreck things. They'll play a few days, realize they won't get a top shelf ship outfitted in a weekend, and rage-quit. They won't have the staying power.

I never played the original Elite, so maybe my take is a bit different. I see this game as the graphic enhanced big brother to the ancient BBS game "Galactic Empire". Almost exactly the same : Massive universe, no story driven plot, start out with the equivalent of a space Yugo and $100 in your pocket. You could trade, fight, or explore ( and claim planets ). It took weeks to get the credits to afford a top of the line ship, and even more to outfit it plus fuel/ammo. And people lied, back-stabbed, and generally killed on sight anyone who wasn't a friend ( and even those changed ). There were griefers, noobs, and white knghts. The only difference between the games is that in GE, you could bankroll a new person. Thats an improvement to Elite, I think.

Back then, we had a LOT of folks jump in and try the game for a few days, but unless they were willing to LEARN the game, they usually left after a few hours/days/weeks. I'll posit the same thing happens here. People will jump in, play for a while, then realize it takes weeks of real work to acquire enough capital to purchase the ship of thier dreams before quietly wandering off to play something else. In the end, we'll be keep the people who want to play the game, and not just blow s**t up.

 

[NeilF]

I play solo and I am also one of the original 84's who wanted a modern version of Elite (and its sequels). Yes the OP is correct it has been marketed wrongly because of all the griefing that goes on in open world. Note the difference between griefing and piracy, I dont mind people playing as pirates, eg interdicting me to steal me goods, but as griefers just blast away for the sake off it.

The PvP angle could be settled so easily in open world by having a PvP button attached like WoW has which when switched on allows you to be attacked by other human players, when switched off prevents you being attacked by other human players. This would not only help repopulate open player with players like me who play solo, hence making the universe a better place. Griefers would only have npc's (and any other PvPer's willing to take them on) to shoot at, they would soon get bored and move on. This works well in WoW as I walk round with my PvP off and dont ever get bothered by stupid duals or other such PvP nonsense.

But until then I am sticking to solo especially when the console blasters come online.

...or simply have easy to reach arenas/combat zones so anyone wishing to partake in PvP has a very easy time meeting anyone else wanting the same - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110531

At the moment it's very hard to simply have a PvP encounter....

If these arenas offered organised combat zones it could prove very popular. ie: One geared solely for Viper vs Viper. Or anything vs anything etc etc.


Would it remove trolls? No... But it might given them a better alternative/vent

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

This.

And also, people suggesting 'arena modes', get out please. This is an open world game, not an arena shooter. Get used to """griefers""" or get out of open. What would be reasonably is to ask for a real crime & punishment system (something is coming 'soon'), instead of asking for "arena modes"; and I hope the NPC's get more aggressive and get good soon too, maybe if they get 'griefed' by NPC's they will stop complaining.

We know Sarah Jane is working on better AI. We don't know how good they will be. What we need is for the solo mode to be as hard as open (if they cannot yet write an AI that passes the Turing test so they fly as well as the best CMDRs, they can easily introduce more of them or more frequently), and preferably where the difficulty is not only based on things like government type (not done anything like well enough as it is) but also informed by what is happening in open: a system which has a pile of pirates in open, should also have a pile of AI pilots in solo. If they make solo just as hard, there will still be people who must (due to bandwidth) play in solo, or dislike the jerks so much that they insist on avoiding them. But those that hide there because it is easy, will not need to any more.

 

[Cosmos]

As I've got such a player here let me ask you. How much of the marketing for this game influenced your decision to buy it? What sort of thing did you expect from the game when you purchased it?

Well I was a KS backer and played the previous games and a dynamic galaxy and background sim was always going to be a part of it - thats something Braben explicitly went through for the plans for the game (should be a vid somewhere). So Frontier released the game without that fully embellished and I see PP as delivering more upon that. I also think what it is trying to achieve is making player adversity, trying not to use the pvp word, more meaningful.

So it was always meant to be the case you could influence the background sim as a player, but you don't have to engage with PP either, and there is still solo and private group.. So, long story short, I think this is an excellent move forward in the development of the game and I am somewhat relieved to see it coming because in order for the game to be successful and so on it needs to sell loads more units

And I think this in combination with Wings is beginning to nail it.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I play solo and I am also one of the original 84's who wanted a modern version of Elite (and its sequels). Yes the OP is correct it has been marketed wrongly because of all the griefing that goes on in open world. Note the difference between griefing and piracy, I dont mind people playing as pirates, eg interdicting me to steal me goods, but as griefers just blast away for the sake off it.

Griefing has been happening since the alpha. It is nothing to do with marketing. It is more, IMHO, to do with FD failing to put the promised consequences in place.

 

[I and I Redeye]

This was someone who just wanted some PvP arena type combat.

This was, frankly, extremely irritating.

But why so many people who believe otherwise? A very large number of people appear to be here not to play Elite, but some other blast-a-thon game.

It is a blast a thon game. It is marketed correctly. I know why you cry (for want of a better expression). It's ok. I say this respectfully.

This is not a space sim or space truckers sim. It's a space sim mmo. It's bringing all the things an MMO should have in a modern game.
With powerplay coming it's starting to look like the product I was expecting at launch. I was so dissapointed with what they released.
I haven't read between the lines yet. Makes no difference now, it arrives tomorrow so we will see how good it is. If it's as good as they say then I say this game will become an epic and massive.
It has the ingredients for powerful players to excel.

It is set in 3301, major factions are competing for galatic dominance. Trade or fight in a persistant dangerous galaxy. All driven by players.

Traders have tools to escape jerks but many don't want to use them. Your meant to get interdicted on your travels, npc's do it.
You meant to decide your actions. Do I drop cargo or escape? Is he a criminal or pirate? Can I outwit this one? Decisions that have to be made under pressure in a split second.
He is meant to chase you across systems if you try escape. It's meant to be cat and mouse, cops and robbers. You are meant to do your best to escape. You have lots of tools available.
Criminality is a real role in this game. So is pirate. Both are different. Both behave different and have different consequences on the system.


The game is exactly as they've described it and how I envisioned it (now that powerplay is here).

BTW: I am an 84'er. Best game I ever played was original Elite. It still is. Amazing what impact that game had on a small child imagination. 2 years ago I was telling my friend about a game I played and I couldn't name it but could describe what little I could remember. Told him it was best game I ever played. He told me to check this game out. ( he didn't know I was talking about Elite nor did I). He was a kickstarter but I couldn't afford it that year. I was sold on it's return after realising it was same guy making this Elite. Then very dissapointed on release but now my faith is restored. I feel this game is moving in the direction it has to go and should go. That it's going to be the game that Braben really dreamed of in '84.

 

[NeilF]

This.

And also, people suggesting 'arena modes', get out please. This is an open world game, not an arena shooter. Get used to """griefers""" or get out of open. What would be reasonably is to ask for a real crime & punishment system (something is coming 'soon'), instead of asking for "arena modes"; and I hope the NPC's get more aggressive and get good soon too, maybe if they get 'griefed' by NPC's they will stop complaining.

"Arena modes" aside.... What's wrong this arenas themselves? ie: A mechanic to simply allow CMDRs to meet up easily and fight each other... I mean something needs to provide "sport" to televise in the 33rd century?

So if I had 20mins to kill one Saturday afternoon, and fancied having a fight in my Vulture, what would the harm be to have a very easy method of meeting up with other similar minded CMDRs?

The problem at the moment is it's nigh on impossible to do this? - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110531