I actually prefer the Viper over the Vulture

[Mortifa]

Sure, on paper there are obvious differences. I find that people in larger more powerful ships tend to try the sucker shot approach more than anything though because the difference in alpha damage makes smaller ships like a viper seem like a larger version of the sidewinder. A well timed shot can strip the shields off a viper almost instantly.

The mistake many people in larger ships make though is in thinking that paper specifications will translate into nothing but win against other human players. One thing you ignored in your truthful assessment of firepower though is the relative fragility of various subsystems (which I think i something that will be fixed over time). It's much easier to defeat one subsystem on a large ship than the entire vessel, so I never try to overpower it in my viper because that would be stupid.

The sustained level of damage I can deal out with 2 beams and 2 cannons is a lot more than the scatter shots I get in return.

The other thing I see few pilots do effectively is make aggressive use of speed changes and thrusters to make the ship do things it shouldn't be able to do on paper. All of our ships want to fly more or less in straight lines and in a partially newtonian galaxy we can use inertia to our advantage. Don't let your speed get stuck in the blue zone, but consider it more like being in frameshift where your actual speed is always changing as the counter to a destination is stuck at 6 or 7 seconds.

If I put it this way it might be easier to make sense: My thrust might be at max for 4 seconds while I'm turning and using counter-thrust to pull my nose over faster, then my thrust will drop to zero or even a little reverse to counter the inertia and keep my guns pointed at an enemy ship a little longer....if he's smart he's already pulling out out my optimal targeting area and I can continue to reverse or hit afterburners, +2 pips to engines to recharge for 3 seconds, and reset my orientation depending on where he is on my map. If he manages to get behind me, then hit the chaff, slow down for 2 seconds and use thrusters only to change my ship orientation before hitting burners.

It wasn't quite the same thing but I used to fly a lot like that in Freespace 2 where dogfights could end up in neverending loops until I showed my clan how to draw figure-8's in 3 dimensions so the enemy players never knew where the outside of the 8 was going to be.

The bottom line is a lot of people get stuck on shooting and forget to use most of the other controls...

And that is when the Viper dances...

 

[Rankaze]

I'd argue it takes considerably more skill to do well in the Viper than the Vulture, and that a majority of Vulture pilots fall somewhat short of "good".

Agreed.

I prefer the Vulture for its superior shields, superior firepower (especially against bigger ships), and more options in terms of utility and internal mounts (as well as not being quite so mass-constrained as the Viper due to the crazy optimal mass of its thrusters), but the Viper definitely takes more skill to fly. A Vulture can simply out-turn most enemies; a Viper doesn't have that option and has to wield a broader array of skills to succeed.

Of course, a pilot who learns to master the Viper can still use most of those skills in a Vulture, and he'll be very, very lethal if he does.

 

[obliterator]

Seriously, thats your answer to a blatant lack of experience with the matchup? We all theorycrafting instead of using combat experience as a basis? Common man.

I'm not answering to a blatant lack of experience with the machup, because I don't have a blatant lack of experience with the matchup. I said that I have the experience to back up my theories, then you said I admitted that I was theorycrafting, to wich I responded that we are all thechnically just theorycrafting here. Stop trying to twist the meaning of my words.

http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=60N,5TE5TE01Q01Q0-80-8,2-6Q8S6Q5K7_6u5A,7iW7RA7dq

Full shield recovery, at twice the amount available to the Viper.

You're using a class 5 scb with a class 4 generator. Of course shield cells are more effective if you have bad shields.

That IS the combat top speed. Do you even own the ship, and have it maxed out? I dont think you do.

I had a maxed out vulture before (now flying a FDL). Top speed 392 with lightweight alloy: http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=60N,4zg7Px01Q,2-6Q7_6Q5K7_6u5A,7Sk7go7dg
And you don't reach 400m/s with D thrusters on a 345t vulture. That's .


Edit:

The Vulture can out brawl the FDL, and even if the FDL is wise enough not to brawl, the Vulture is still nimble and tough enough to disengage.

That's when the reverse thruster tactic is actually useful.

 

[Rankaze]

It doesn't really matter. I was responding to a guy claiming that the absolute top speed of a vulture is 402, but the absolute top speed and the actual top speed of your ship are two very different things. I highly doubt that a vulture that actually reach 402 is really fit for combat.

Ah, the Vulture has class 5 thrusters. 5A thrusters have an optimal mass of 840 T. My combat loaded Vulture weighs in at 355 T.

If you're using A-rated thrusters, there is almost no way your boost speed is not maxed out in a Vulture. I've never noticed myself going 402 in mine, so I don't know if that number is accurate, but I regularly notice myself going in the high 390's so I don't doubt it.

The Vulture is only slow when not boosting.

Plus, I find that in my Vulture I can frequently allocate more power to ENG than I was able to do in my Viper and still be able to fire whenever I need it.

 

[obliterator]

Ah, the Vulture has class 5 thrusters. 5A thrusters have an optimal mass of 840 T. My combat loaded Vulture weighs in at 355 T.

If you're using A-rated thrusters, there is almost no way your boost speed is not maxed out in a Vulture. I've never noticed myself going 402 in mine, so I don't know if that number is accurate, but I regularly notice myself going in the high 390's so I don't doubt it.

The Vulture is only slow when not boosting.

Plus, I find that in my Vulture I can frequently allocate more power to ENG than I was able to do in my Viper and still be able to fire whenever I need it.

390 is still a lot slower than +- 410. Also, how often do you boost when you're dogfighting? Personally when I was in my vulture I was always trying to orbit my target, or at least to stay locked on it as much as possible. You can't do that when you boost.

 

[Rankaze]

390 is still a lot slower than +- 410. Also, how often do you boost when you're dogfighting? Personally when I was in my vulture I was always trying to orbit my target, or at least to stay locked on it as much as possible. You can't do that when you boost.

Boosting increases your turn rate as well as your speed. It definitely has its uses in dogfighting.

The only time I find that I miss the Viper's speed is when my target is trying to flee... and even then, I find the Vulture's superior firepower can take care of that target before it escapes.

Really, if the Vulture has a flaw, it's not the speed... it's that the hardpoints are too far apart for subsystem targeting with fixed weapons at close to mid range, which is why most Vulture builds I've seen go for gimbals.

 

[nosleepdemon]

I think some of you fellas are a bit in denial. I've been jumped by player Vipers and honestly, I just feel sorry for them Their shields simply disintegrate and there is no way they are able to out turn the Vulture. Top speed doesn't matter in a dog fight unless you are trying to run away - in this, the Viper excels. A skilled Viper pilot has a chance of escaping a Vulture with most of their ship intact, but then again, a skilled Viper pilot won't engage a Vulture since they will get owned very quickly. The argument here is similar to the Eagle vs Viper discussion, except in this case the Viper is more agile at a cost of speed. The Vulture is a space superiority fighter - anything that wonders near it gets smashed.

 

[BlackLegionnaire]

I'd argue it takes considerably more skill to do well in the Viper than the Vulture, and that a majority of Vulture pilots fall somewhat short of "good".

+1, yeah, the "weaker" the ship the more careful and adept you have to be. That's why I fly an Eagle. I want a challenge.

THIS is such a super juicy topic, now I have both, Viper and Vulture....love em both.
After reading all 5 pages, not one CMDR has mentioned dogfighting WITHOUT Flight assist and if that makes a difference in this awesome duel of two kickass ships!
also, what impact does the fact that large weapons have a bonus (not sure how many percent) against small ship?

Continue....... I love this topic!

 

[Phoenix366]

The only thing a viper can do against a vulture is run away faster.

Vultures are more equipped to kill things, class 3 beam laser and class 3 cannon. Anything that stands in my way is dismantled in fiery explosions.

Hit up a conflict zone. The viper just doesnt have the muscle to take out pythons and above with any sense of speed and if youre using kinetics thats a lot of reload trips

 

[Morbad]

Ah, the Vulture has class 5 thrusters. 5A thrusters have an optimal mass of 840 T. My combat loaded Vulture weighs in at 355 T.

If you're using A-rated thrusters, there is almost no way your boost speed is not maxed out in a Vulture. I've never noticed myself going 402 in mine, so I don't know if that number is accurate, but I regularly notice myself going in the high 390's so I don't doubt it.

The velocity cap can be reached if your total mass is half of your thruster optimal mass or below. However, too much below and peak straight line speed begins to suffer slightly.

I don't think the cap on the Vulture is quite as high as 402...I'm pretty sure it's 396, but I'd have to test it again to be certain. Hitting 393-394 was a regular occurrence in my combat Vulture (also well below half optimal mass with an A5 thruster module).

Of course, a pilot who learns to master the Viper can still use most of those skills in a Vulture, and he'll be very, very lethal if he does.

By the time the Vulture was released, I had over 300 hours and nearly 200 victories vs. CMDRs in the Viper.

Viper is still my favorite ship, but I rarely use it in serious conflicts any longer. There are simply more efficient tools for most jobs, if you can afford them. That said, the Viper still excels at fighting smaller ships, and my TTK against anything Viper size or smaller is almost the same if I'm in a Viper, Vulture, or FDL.

 

[aRtFuL]

After reading all 5 pages, not one CMDR has mentioned dogfighting WITHOUT Flight assist and if that makes a difference in this awesome duel of two kickass ships!

That's because Vulture, like Eagle, really doesn't need to use FA off to out-turn other ships.

Viper you need to be pretty handy at using FA off to be good at it (even if you don't use it all them time, you need to know how to FA off turn).

 

[Morbad]

Viper you need to be pretty handy at using FA off to be good at it (even if you don't use it all them time, you need to know how to FA off turn).

I specifically looked for a video where I never turned FA off:
[video=youtube;yD9jnw080fE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD9jnw080fE[/video]

I only see two turns where I may have been better off had I flipped FA off and I would have had to have been careful not to overcompensate or mistime things, or I may have wound up worse off.

 

[aRtFuL]

I specifically looked for a video where I never turned FA off:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD9jnw080fE

I only see two turns where I may have been better off had I flipped FA off and I would have had to have been careful not to overcompensate or mistime things, or I may have wound up worse off.

I think these sort of opinion is a bit qualitative to be definitive, as it kinda depends on the opponents as well. I won't use videos to disprove it.

It is actually saying you can stick a turn faster without drifting - it could be true, but it also depends on the situation and the track. However regards whether it is situational or not it is a good skill to have, just like FA off is a good skill to have on a Viper, which was my point.

 

[Morbad]

FA off is a good skill to have on a Viper, which was my point.

FA off is a good skill to have on any ship...thrusters tend to act up if they get shot or you melt them.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

I too agree with Morbad. It does not take much skills to pilot a Vulture. It does take some for the Viper. And this is *not* to the Viper's advantage, you know.

Also, those theories about shield cell banks are rounds in the water. The vulture's shield is way ahead of the Viper's. Adding boosters and cell banks to both will only increase that difference even more.

I'm out in the deep, so I can't PvP right now. I will as soon as I'm back, but why don't you guys just do that and post the resulting vids? Theories will only take us so far. Why talk when we have a nice game to play in?

 

[Arubeto]

thats the aspect i absolutely love about this game, (nearly) everyship has its purpose and own ups and downs!

I want to second that! I really like that people stick to different ships and don't all fly the same!

I, for example, love the shiny ships, having tons of fun with my clipper, and am looking forward to owning an Orca one day and a Courier when it's released. Not for there performance, but just for there personality and atmosphere! (but the Clipper is a pretty decent ship, too. Can do everything I want with it - fighting, trading, some limited exploring, or even mining, if I want to get the shiny surface dirty )

 

[Sentience]

Lots of discussion about the stats comparison between the two ships, which wasn't my aim for this thread at all.
I choose the Viper strictly on visual/audio/feeling reasons, not because I think it's the technologically superior ship.

I think it does require more skill to use it, which means for me it's more fun and adds a challenge, something the Vulture doesn't know the meaning of.
Someone put it best; the Vulture is a very sterile but effective tool.
Doesn't mean it's interesting for me to pilot that thing. I find it boring and dull to hold down the trigger shooting only 1 type of weapon and staying still with super shields.

I went to a Nav Beacon to test it out when I got it, and I accidentally ran into an unwanted Viper flying around. I took his shields out, and his hull to 65%. When I looked at my shields, they were still 100% and bright blue.
I rammed him again and killed him with no penalty and no damage to my ship. Doesn't really seem right to me.

If I manage to kill someone in a Viper it makes the excitement all the more worthwhile because I feel the kill was earned, not handed to me on a silver platter that the Vulture is accustomed to eating from.

 

[Rankaze]

Lots of discussion about the stats comparison between the two ships, which wasn't my aim for this thread at all.
I choose the Viper strictly on visual/audio/feeling reasons, not because I think it's the technologically superior ship.

I think it does require more skill to use it, which means for me it's more fun and adds a challenge, something the Vulture doesn't know the meaning of.
Someone put it best; the Vulture is a very sterile but effective tool.
Doesn't mean it's interesting for me to pilot that thing. I find it boring and dull to hold down the trigger shooting only 1 type of weapon and staying still with super shields.

I went to a Nav Beacon to test it out when I got it, and I accidentally ran into an unwanted Viper flying around. I took his shields out, and his hull to 65%. When I looked at my shields, they were still 100% and bright blue.
I rammed him again and killed him with no penalty and no damage to my ship. Doesn't really seem right to me.

If I manage to kill someone in a Viper it makes the excitement all the more worthwhile because I feel the kill was earned, not handed to me on a silver platter that the Vulture is accustomed to eating from.

I enjoy flying both. They're very different beasts.

The Viper is highly technical, and there is a certain joy in the challenge of making it dance. I might even prefer it over the Vulture if it wasn't so disadvantaged in firepower vs. larger ships, but that limitation always bugs me when bounty hunting because it makes me inefficient.

The Vulture, like the Eagle, is best flown with reckless abandon. It will cheerfully do anything you ask of it. It's wonderfully responsive, surprisingly tough, and the C3 weapons have amazing bite. If the Vulture has a flaw, it's that it's a little too perfect... but it's a flaw i can generally live with.

 

[Morbad]

staying still with super shields.

Effective Vulture pilots aren't staying still.

I went to a Nav Beacon to test it out when I got it, and I accidentally ran into an unwanted Viper flying around. I took his shields out, and his hull to 65%. When I looked at my shields, they were still 100% and bright blue.
I rammed him again and killed him with no penalty and no damage to my ship. Doesn't really seem right to me.

Your ship had triple the mass and triple the shield strength...the Viper should have moved.

not handed to me on a silver platter that the Vulture is accustomed to eating from.

My victories in the Vulture weren't handed to me. I use the ship to do things that are not practical in a Viper.

 

[Sentience]

Effective Vulture pilots aren't staying still.



Your ship had triple the mass and triple the shield strength...the Viper should have moved.



My victories in the Vulture weren't handed to me. I use the ship to do things that are not practical in a Viper.

- but you can stay still if doing a RES in PvE, which is what I'm doing with all these different ships

- even so, my shields should have suffered just a little bit. Not even 1% was missing

- again, in PvE I can kill an Anaconda with both the Viper and the Vulture without any worry. The Vulture can soak the damage and reduces the Anaconda to dust pretty quick, but I prefer using the Viper's thrusters and avoiding return fire while pouring multicannon into that power component