What is up with the mentality that piracy and PvP of any form is griefing?

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The fact that traders (Im deflecting a little here as Im being empathic rather than whining about my experiences of it) have to jump to another system to avoid being 'griefed' is grief enough. If being pirated thats a different story altogether its for a reason. To steal loot and sell it on. Just popping ships is the kid at the party who pops the balloons while laughing as the girl whose party it is cries in the corner. Its bad form.
 
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The fact that traders (Im deflecting a little here as Im being empathic rather than whining about my experiences of it) have to jump to another system to avoid being 'griefed' is grief enough. If being pirated thats a different story altogether its for a reason. To steal loot and sell it on. Just popping ships is the kud at the party who pops the balloons while laughing as the girl whose party it is cries in the corner. Its bad form.

lol

That's the thing "definition of grief". If a trader thinks being made to jump to another system is grief then they're playing the wrong game entirely as you use the exact same option in solo play to avoid an npc.

Whilst in open mode all tactics are valid except using bugs or exploits to gain an advantage. Using bugs and exploits are the only real griefing. It's really that simple.

Whether it's honourable or not doesn't count and isn't conductive to discussion.
 
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Ok its a definition thing. We are arguing about names for things. I'll just call them heads from now on so that we don't get confused by some other meaning. Anyway all I'm saying is heads should have some mechanic that makes then think twice about doing it so that its a hard choice to play as one. I suspect its a choice they play in real life too. Lol.
 
You seem to stand up for pvp gameplay not being griefing in this thread but not in the other thread I linked to in my above reply to Father Cool.

The instance in the thread you linked was an example of a sociopath, but on it's own I wouldn't class it as griefing. However, when you consider that incident in conjunction with other incidents involving that certain "group" of players, then I would consider them as griefers in general.

The same group has admitted to waiting out of sight - outside of stations - then ramming unsuspecting players as they undock, usually killing them in the process. They were doing it in a Clipper, so anything Asp sized or smaller was usually destroyed in the process. That right there is griefing, as they are player killing whilst avoiding consequences and repercussions that would normally be associated with deliberately killing another player.
 
Ok its a definition thing. We are arguing about names for things. I'll just call them heads from now on so that we don't get confused by some other meaning. Anyway all I'm saying is heads should have some mechanic that makes then think twice about doing it so that its a hard choice to play as one. I suspect its a choice they play in real life too. Lol.

Lol that's the problem the majority of pirates and pkers have been crying out themselves for an overhaul to the consequence system since beta :)

The flip side of the coin is FD doing something to fix the mechanics from being able to escape interdiction so easily and combat logging as these are the main reasons why pirates are more likely to shoot on sight rather than pull over and haggle. If you're promised piracy as a valid profession and find that it's pretty much impossible to actually pirate something without extreme violence then it's understandable why we have the current situation.

Everyone agrees it needs fixing the only thing people argue about is the definition of griefing :p

btw you should edit the term you used as a mod might class it as swearing and give you an infraction :)
 
The fact that traders (Im deflecting a little here as Im being empathic rather than whining about my experiences of it) have to jump to another system to avoid being 'griefed' is grief enough.

That's just a normal aspect of choosing to trade in Open, surely?
 
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The instance in the thread you linked was an example of a sociopath, but on it's own I wouldn't class it as griefing. However, when you consider that incident in conjunction with other incidents involving that certain "group" of players, then I would consider them as griefers in general.

The same group has admitted to waiting out of sight - outside of stations - then ramming unsuspecting players as they undock, usually killing them in the process. They were doing it in a Clipper, so anything Asp sized or smaller was usually destroyed in the process. That right there is griefing, as they are player killing whilst avoiding consequences and repercussions that would normally be associated with deliberately killing another player.

The problem is in that thread we were discussing the video and you have to take it on a case by case basis. I know about the group and their other exploits as as I've said in my previous posts I agree that behaviour is griefing :)
 
The problem is in that thread we were discussing the video and you have to take it on a case by case basis. I know about the group and their other exploits as as I've said in my previous posts I agree that behaviour is griefing :)

Nah I know m8, the guy in that video is a scumbag imho, but he's done nothing outside of normal playing mechanics that could actually be construed as griefing. It's just what they do in general as a group that I can't abide... they remind me of Goonswarm from EvE, except they aren't that good... and that's saying something!
 
Nah I know m8, the guy in that video is a scumbag imho, but he's done nothing outside of normal playing mechanics that could actually be construed as griefing. It's just what they do in general as a group that I can't abide... they remind me of Goonswarm from EvE, except they aren't that good... and that's saying something!

I don't agree with dishonourable play myself but I'll defend people's rights to play like that aslong as it's not exploiting.

I have no direct experience of the group myself but I disagree with mass ramming at stations. Most of the ram griefing I hear about is from traders laughing about taking sideys out in their T9's which is kind of ironic :)
 
I don't agree with dishonourable play myself but I'll defend people's rights to play like that aslong as it's not exploiting.

I have no direct experience of the group myself but I disagree with mass ramming at stations. Most of the ram griefing I hear about is from traders laughing about taking sideys out in their T9's which is kind of ironic :)

Indeed. I've accidentally popped a Sidey when undocking before during an uncommon trade run in my T7... it was pretty funny and it did give me a laugh, but I made sure to message the guy and dropped him 4 units of Palla for his troubles. I'm all for people playing in whichever way they choose, provided they aren't deliberately abusing flawed game mechanics to ruin peoples days. A fortnights suspension to solo would soon knock it on the head.
 
Indeed. I've accidentally popped a Sidey when undocking before during an uncommon trade run in my T7... it was pretty funny and it did give me a laugh, but I made sure to message the guy and dropped him 4 units of Palla for his troubles. I'm all for people playing in whichever way they choose, provided they aren't deliberately abusing flawed game mechanics to ruin peoples days. A fortnights suspension to solo would soon knock it on the head.

FD need to get heavy handed with exploiters but since they only ban hackers to solo I don't see it happening anytime soon. The most frustrating thing about that is some of the solo hackers (who are still hacking and sharing their hacks) are using the jump distance hack to like 3000lyrs (no joke) so it's not really fair on the exploration side of the community if they spend weeks to get somewhere and some hacker (who should have been banned outright) has already claimed all the systems they were heading for. That's really for another thread though so I'll leave it :)
 
Thing is those PvE'ers did need others they needed us to to protect them so they could earn billions and never helped us once. i'm sorry but if you aint willing to fight for something in EvE you simply don't deserve it.

This mentality being widespread across current players and developers both is likely the reason EVE has issues with player retention.

You weren't wrong, given how that game is built and the kind of player and gameplay it attempts to attract. Just don't be surprised when acting like that leads to players doing whatever is needed to never meet you, up to and including leaving the game altogether. I play games to have fun, not to butt heads with overly competitive players that think everyone is against them, and I don't think I'm alone.

(It's why I laugh inside whenever I see CCP's plans for increasing player retention. They tend to start from the point of view that, if the player can only be convinced to give low-sec or null-sec a try and be taught how to be efficient there, the player will like it enough to remain; they are iffed that only about one in ten players that purchase EVE even experience its PvP aspect. What they seem to ignore is that, for many of the players attracted to EVE — such as me, in the past — the risk of PvP from low-sec and null-sec can never be enjoyable.)

Honestly you say you don't want to be forced to play with others and you put people on ignore lists if they demand help, seriously why are playing MMO's since for you by the sound things simple multi player would suffice.

Demand is different from ask. If someone attempts to dictate how I play, in any shape or way, I will do whatever it takes to not play with that person again. Part of why I will never, ever, engage in PvP that is not consensual as long as I live. It's similar to how I'm in guilds; I will do my best to help in any way I can, be as friendly as possible, but as soon as anyone with actual power in the guild demands that I do something, I will /gquit and never look back.

I already have people in the real world, people that can actually dictate what I must do, demanding things from me; I don't need, nor will ever accept, this kind of abuse in the games I play.

And by the way EvE does well because of the way it is if they tried to implement a PvE server 1st the economy would go comepletely pear shaped and to be fair it would be dead in a month.

Not so sure. EVE is hanging on, surely, and I attribute this in part to a zero tolerance towards griefing newbies (AFAIK one of the few bannable offenses is griefing in the newbie systems) and in part to making sure there is a fair amount of space available where PvP is rare and (if non-consensual) costly to the attacker. In a way, EVE is far more PvE-friendly than most of the other open PvP games out there. Plus, it isn't shy about telling potential purchasers about how hostile the game universe can be.

At the same time, similar games that implemented PvE servers, or the equivalent, typically saw a higher than expected uptake of those servers. The classic example is Ultima Online where, after adding Trammel, Felucca became mostly a ghost town, despite making the rewards for PvE activity in Felucca much higher than in Trammel in an attempt to attract enough players there to keep the PvPers happy. It's not the only one; Xsyon saw a large surge in demand when it created a PvE server. Even WoW — a game where the idea of dividing the player base into two factions permanently at war, instigating PvP, was at the core of its concept —, in a way, fits here; it saw far more activity in the PvE servers than the devs expected (interviews before launch made it clear that the devs thought the PvP servers as the "correct" way to play the game, and the PvE ones were almost an afterthought for what they expected to be a minority of players that refused to engage in PvP).
 
Open is PvP. In the way real life is and thats whats great about the game. Open is not PvP un-consentual deathmatch however. Go and run around in halo or call of duty multiplayer maps if thats your bag. Come here if you want your actions to mean something both to the society living in it and to yourself.

Huh, actually CoD and Halo are pretty much consensual PvP only. You log into the match specifically to play PvP, so there is no way to ever consider it non-consensual.

And not everyone sees PvP activity meaning something to the game as something valuable, or even positive. I very much only play PvP when it specifically won't affect the game as a whole, because I see PvP influencing the PvE content as a very quick way to completely ruin the whole thing.




lol

That's the thing "definition of grief". If a trader thinks being made to jump to another system is grief then they're playing the wrong game entirely as you use the exact same option in solo play to avoid an npc.

Whilst in open mode all tactics are valid except using bugs or exploits to gain an advantage. Using bugs and exploits are the only real griefing. It's really that simple.

Whether it's honourable or not doesn't count and isn't conductive to discussion.

AFAIK, the most universal definition of griefing is when someone does something to another with the objective of causing grief. It has nothing to do with whether it's legal or not, whether an exploit was involved, whatever. It depends merely on the motivation.

So, pirating can be griefing, and can not be griefing. The same for killing without warning, for combat logging, and for about everything people say is griefing.

And this is the whole issue with identifying griefing; it's based on the motivation, something that is impossible to directly prove. The closest to a prove one can get is when no other motivation for the action is possible, when there is no possible benefit to the attacker and he should be aware that the attacked player might not enjoy the fight.

In that light, BTW, combat logging almost never is griefing. Not only the combat logger often isn't the one that started the interaction, the player has a clear benefit from doing it; he is avoiding a loss of in-game items and credits. Unless someone is either interdicting or posing as a target to get interdicted with the intent to annoy the other player by combat logging, then this might be griefing.

There are other definitions of griefing. I tend to go with "knowingly forcing anyone else into a situation he might not enjoy without first getting consent", and will use that when deciding who I want to interact with in the game and who I will put on ignore. I also find highly amusing one I've seen a developer use once, that a griefer is someone that gives less money than the potential revenue lost from those he has driven away (it was worded like that to convince the bigwigs that spending money fighting griefing would ultimately have a positive effect on the bottom line).
 

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Seriously. What the hell? When i dreamt of space sims as a child the excitement was a world filled with pirates/bounty hunters and dangerous pilots.

Why do i see so many posts where people actually hate pirates in an out of character way? Why do so many people feel entitled to trade through space with zero possibility of a loss? Why are so many people actually encouraging combat logging?

Man. We're playing a space sim. Totally don't recall Han Solo calling Boba Fett a griefer.

i love elite dangerous. love it. What i don't love are these creepy attitudes that unless you're playing as a goody-two-shoes trader you're somehow a griefer?

Have you looked at the avg mindset of the players in this game (on the forums). Spend some time looking at various threads here. People seem to think that slave trade in this game some how is evil and is just threatening their real way of life... Yet, they seem to have no problem with Murder, Smuggling, etc.. etc...



The sad part is the people who are all "I want this game to be the best game", or "This game is totally owning Star Citizen ( even though its not released yet.... )", "I want noting but Mind breaking boredom exercises in my game" are the same ones that don't realize if they get what they are asking for, you effectively drive this game into a niche group, that will cause it to be underfunded for future content, and ultimately lead to the games demise.

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Creepy? If you annoy someone else in the game, they are likely going to block/ban/firewall/AltF4/laugh at you.

The only creepy thing is someone who feels the need to act like a mindless pew-pew in the first place.
How do you firewall someone, or alt-F4 someone? Just sounds like these sorts are sore losers, and should just play in solo.
 
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No, I hate to break it to you but it really is creepy when people play a multiplayer game with open PvP mechanics and then get sociopathic about it.

What's creepy is when people forget this is a game, and think peoples actions in this game reflects on them in real life.....

This is a game, this is not real life. Quit trying to rope the two together. Solo mode was made for those who don't want to be exposed to open pvp.
 
Sorry I wasnt referring to COD etc as unconsentual just as deathmatch for people to duke it out. I was referring to the murderous attacks in elite being unconsentual and I strongly suspect cowardly otherwise they would target more challenging opposition. I believe and its my opinion of course that the elite universe should run as though a real immersed environment where actions taken have meaning and consequence. Players who just want pvp dogfights for the sake of it should be in a consentual manner otherwise there should be some in game reason to engage a target. I cant see any reason except that the attacker is rping a complete idiot/psychopath to attack and kill an inarmed trader, its not even fun as the trader cant fight back. Of course the new powerplay missions to disrupt trade routes and such will add reason to the attacks but how many of these will be genuine mission causes? As mention previously its the punishment that doesnt fit the crime at the mo and Im not sure how that can be corrected for those who just enjoy spoiling someones day for lols.
 

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People will play this game any way they see fit. I just have to wonder about the psyche of someone who thinks killing an unarmed trader carrying no cargo (or the pirate doesn't even ask or has room for the cargo) Sure its within the game rules and mechanics but whichever way you look at it someone who gets a kick out of ruining other peoples game is just a damn sociopath in my eyes. No empathy. Yeah you can do it....but why would you want to?


Ruining your game lol..... Come on their is this thing called Solo, what is so hard to understand about that. Go to solo and no 'mindless pew pew' will effect you.

Ruining your game would be me somehow deleting your account and smashing your computer up with a sledge hammer, not taking shots at you in open space, when I am a bandit. Hell did any of you watch Firefly, What about the reavers, maybe I just want to RP a reaver, and mindlessly slaughter everyone that isn't also a reaver.
 
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Oh and I am nearly 40 and cant think of anything worse than trading in the safety of solo. Ive never played solo in this game yet. Im also pretty sure that my reactions are around 90 to 95% of what they were in my 20s so Im ok with PvP cheers. Just not so keen on idiots rocking up and starting on people like a drunk in the pub.

I am all for PvP, no issues here, but for all you defending types who seem to gloss over the mindless, no reason trader attacks and turn it into an anti PvP argument when thats notbthe point being made just answer this question - If all your after is PvP why do you attack defenceless traders for it?
 
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