Michael and Sandro posted the latest Dev Update tonight, which as promised by David last week was a "crime special". It turned out to be fairly complex, so (as much for my benefit as anyone else's) I've collated all the info presented by Michael, as well as all the questions by players and answers by both Michael and Sandro into a single post. If they add any more over the next few days I'll add it in here.
-----
- Fines will now take seven days before they mature into bounties, so giving you more time to clear them off.
- Active bounties are changing so that they are issued by minor factions only, even for systems owned by one of the three major factions. You won’t be able to pay these bounties for seven days. We’ll tweak the friendly fire to be a bit more forgiving and we can balance this number further if needed. We’ll also apply the friendly fire to hits on players in the same way they are for NPCs.
- Whenever you commit a new bounty offence in a jurisdiction where you already have an active bounty then the bounty value is increased and the timer reset to seven days. If you gain a fine in the same jurisdiction then the bounty value is increased, but the timer is not reset.
- An active bounty is resolved in one of the following ways: Firstly if a ship detects the bounty and destroys you then the bounty is claimed and removed. Secondly if your ship is destroyed, but the bounty is not detected then the following happens: The bounty becomes dormant and can only be detected by authority scans by agents of that jurisdiction and if detected will become an active bounty with a new seven day timer. If a dormant bounty is not detected within seven days then it is removed. If an active bounty is not claimed or made dormant within seven days then it will be cleared.
- Note that when a bounty is removed, for whatever reason, it is added as a legacy fine for the same amount and for the same jurisdiction. Legacy fines never expire and are automatically added to the rebuy cost if you restart in a station or outpost owned by that minor faction.
- We recently added caps to bounties per jurisdiction. These caps will remain although they do not apply to fines and legacy fines.
- During the Powerplay beta we’ll also trial a new crime of ramming at speed within no fire zones. If travelling at over 100 m/s and you collide with another ship within the no fire zone then it will be considered a crime. There has been some vigorous debate on this so it will be interesting to hear peoples’ thoughts on this once it’s in place.
- Something we’re looking at a bit futher down the line, but might not make the Powerplay update is the concept of interstellar bounties. These occur when fines and/or bounties for minor factions within a major faction cross a threshold then they are combined into an interstellar bounty. They work in the same way as normal bounties except that the jurisdiction is counted as the whole of the major faction. There will be legacy interstellar fines in a similar way to the legacy fines already described.
------
roza3436
Sorry I am just a little confused. When you say, "You won’t be able to pay these bounties for seven days", does that mean we won't be able to cash in the bounties for seven days or does it mean we cannot pay off our own bounties for 7 days? Thanks for the update anyhow
You can't pay off bounties for seven days, you can still claim them immediately.
Michael
Hello Commander roza3436!
If a bounty is issued against you, you will not be able to pay it off for seven days.
JeffRyan
Interesting to see how this plays out, but doesn't really address the fact that bounties and police response doesn't seem to deter a lot of people from committing crimes and harassing other players (from what I've heard).
Hello Commander JeffRyan!
I think we'll have to wait and see what kind of impact these crime changes have, as they're quite significant. Also, the idea is not to prevent attacks (there is an adversarial element to this game) but to make the consequences appropriate.
DrSpin
This one is really interesting - presumably the fine cap still applies? If so it's a bit of a shame - I like the idea of a pirate with a 1billion credit bounty getting killed, and finding out that they have a 1billion extra added to the rebuy cost... ;-) Nevertheless, it's a really nice addition I think.
They could still build up a legacy fine that would then be applied to the rebuy cost in that jurisdiction.
Michael
Hello Commander DrSpin!
The idea is that the non-expiring fine a criminal is left with after a bounty ends will not be capped, which means they could still rack up enormous bills.
Robert Maynard
It will be interesting to see how this pans out - especially if both ships were travelling in excess of 100 m/s. The explanation as to how the game determines who caused the collision will be interesting to read.
Hello Robert Maynard!
If both ships are moving faster than 100 m p/s then both will have committed the crime, and both will feel the lash of a bounty and starport broadsides.
Sandmann
Does this mean there's room for further enhancements if you don't see the results you'd like?
Hello Commander Sandmann!
With a live game like this, we have to reserve the right to tweak and change if we see something going wrong.
Schlack
the changes look very interesting, hopefully should sort out some of issues. Looking forward to testing the ramming crime in Beta!
Could you please clarify whether system security is getting some attention? The differences between low medium and high security seem to be minimal. I know its a matter of delicate balancing but it seems that system authority responses in high security systems could be beefed up to ensure that piracy/crimes in High security areas have real consequences. At the moment security can be picked off as they arrive - particularly if a wing is in operation.
Hello Commander Schlack!
With these crime changes we'll be keeping an eye on all aspects of this game play, including system response.
Poseidal
100 m/s for ramming speed seems rather low.
I think 150 m/s is my standard 'safe' entry speed for the mailslot in my Clipper (haven't docked in a while though, being a few thousand light years away from the nearest station).
It'll be trialed in the Powerplay beta and we'll adjust if needed.
Michael
xyphic
Presumably both would be guilty of the crime. It'll at least cause players to be a little wary of entering stations at high speed -- making smuggling a bit more risky! -- but I'm not sure what effect it'll have on those currently exploiting ramming. It might also open up other exploits by making others into criminals by casually wandering in front of them when they're going slightly too quickly.
If both are speeding then both commit a crime.
Michael
Tusken
Maybe theres a misunderstanding here, shooting a target that is not scaned fully and thus not yet cleared as wanted also falls under FF to me.
Now there is 0 tollerance for that.
Will this change?
I keep it in mind but in hairy situations it still happends regularly.
If they're targeted then it's not accidental fire.
Michael
PatrickW
Hi, I have 3 questions:
[can only be detected by authority scans by agents of that jurisdiction]
A few requests have been made that dormant bounties should be detectable by a Kill Warrant Scanner and not only by police ships. Can you elaborate on why you thought this would not be a good idea?
[If an active bounty is not claimed or made dormant within seven days then it will be cleared.]
So to make sure I understand this, if you leave the system for 7 days and you are neither killed for the bounty, nor die in another way, the bounty reverts to a legacy fine?
Finally, just to be clear, the legacy fine will never turn back into a bounty? It just remains a fine forever until you pay it off or are forced to pay it off?
Hello Commander PatrickW!
Correct: when a bounty "ends" (it is claimed, ot times out) the criminal is left with a legacy fine which *never* goes away.
The primary function of the KW-scanner is to maximize profits for active bounties. The idea behind dormant bounties is to have a very soft criminal history element. It's certainly a valid suggestion to all KW-scanners to reactivate dormant bounties, but we'd want to chew over the idea, and only after we're confident the crime system changes are working as intended.
AidanPatrick
I'm glad to see that some of my post got through on the interstellar bounties bit. I'm personally not a fan of a 7 day bounty pay-off, or the automatic clearing of bounties... But it's still an improvement. I'd hope that interstellar bounties don't go away. Especially since it's the real bad ones that'll go interstellar.
Hello Commander Aidan Patrick!
The thing to remember about interstellar bounties (when they go live, which will be after 1.3), is that once they become a legacy fine, as they will after seven days of not being added to, the legacy fine will be applicable to *every* starport of the major faction. I'd suggest that this is fairly significant.
Sandmann
Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco
[Hello Commander PatrickW!
Correct: when a bounty "ends" (it is claimed, ot times out) the criminal is left with a legacy fine which *never* goes away.
The primary function of the KW-scanner is to maximize profits for active bounties. The idea behind dormant bounties is to have a very soft criminal history element. It's certainly a valid suggestion to all KW-scanners to reactivate dormant bounties, but we'd want to chew over the idea, and only after we're confident the crime system changes are working as intended.]
Hey again Sandro
If a player has a legacy fine, and then they gain another bounty does the legacy fine reactivate and/or get added to the bounty? Or does the player have an active bounty and an inactive fine?
Hello Commander Sandmann!
If you have a dormant bounty for a jurisdiction and you are scanned by the cops the dormant bounty will become active and the timer will reset to seven days.
If you are detected committing a fine offence the dormant bounty will become active, the timer will be reset to seven days and the fine will be added to its value.
If you are detected committing a bounty offence the dormant bounty will become active, the timer will be reset to seven days and the new bounty value will be added to it.
In short: if you have a dormant bounty, don't get scanned or detected committing crimes!
Sandmann
Sounds a bit confusing but makes sense after some thought. What about legacy fines? It sounds like an easy way to get rid of a legacy fine to reactivate it with a minor offence then pay off the whole lot if it becomes troublesome?
Hello Commander Sandmann!
Once you get a bounty issued against you, you will *always* end up with a legacy fine for it - there's not getting away from that.
So:
Bounty is claimed (a ship detects your bounty and destroys your ship) - bounty is removed and replaced with an equal value legacy fine (or a bigger fine if you had capped your bounty value).
Bounty is not claimed (your ship is destroyed without anyone detecting your bounty) - bounty becomes dormant.
Bounty timer expires (you survive without losing your ship for seven days) - bounty is removed and replaced by an equal value legacy fine (or a bigger fine if you had capped your bounty value).
Dormant bounty timer expires (after losing a ship with an active bounty, you then survive seven days with a dormant bounty) - bounty is removed and replaced by an equal value legacy fine (or a bigger fine if you had capped your bounty value).
The legacy fine is expressly to mitigate against exploits as well as to proved consequence.
Sandmann
Ahh ok.. and the incentive to pay the fine off is that if you die with the fine, it gets added to your re-buy cost, right? Effectively forcing you to pay it upon your death, or revert to a starter sidewinder? Coz if there's no incentive people will just fly around with enormous fines, with no reason to pay it off, and no way for bounty hunters to claim them.
What's to stop me gaining a couple of million in fines, getting into a sidewinder and getting myself dead, then not taking up the rebuy?
Hello Commander Sandmann!
You can't really "get rid" of a legacy fine - you simply pay it or avoid re-spawning at starports where it is valid. It's purely a personal fine that you may have to pay at some point.
Angus
So those people that beat the customs by forgetting stealth and just scorching in at full speed will have to be careful, right Michael?
Yes we will.
Michael
[Originally Posted by Sandmann
If you have a bounty in one part of space, and you're being a "goody" in another part and someone scans you with a KWS they will see that you have a bounty. You still won't be "wanted" in your current location so if they attack you they are then committing a crime themselves and will get a bounty... unless you're in an anarchy system where they will be able to claim your bounty (after scanning you to see that you have it) without committing a crime themselves.]
Thanks, Sandmann. That sounds about right. I take my chances that my secret past will be uncovered, and then I'll be at the mercy of my discoverer. I suppose if my bounty is big enough, it would be worthwhile for a bounty hunter to kill me an claim it even if they incur a smaller bounty themselves.
Hello Commander RobFisher!
The whole concept behind the crime system is to enable Commanders to be villains and heroes at the same time.
The KW-scanner is the bounty hunter's tool to see through this deception, but even then, it does not provide them with the right to kill a target if it is not wanted locally.
Mad Mike
I have been thinking about the 7 day thing.... and whilst I welcome it, I wonder.......... does this mean if I just stop playing for a week the bounty gets removed? IF one of the points of the bounty mechanic is to allow players to get their revenge, and to force CMDRs to run from the law for a while....
Would it not also be an idea to have a 2nd criteria which needs to be filled - to play X number of hrs in the game mode the bounty was picked up in.
So if I am in OPEN, not only would I need to tick the 7 day checkbox, but maybe also tick the "played 5hrs in OPEN" check box as well. (time docked at space station not counted )
Hello Commander Mad Mike!
You *could* stop playing for a week to avoid being hunted for a bounty, though that's a bit extreme. And regardless, you will end up with a legacy fine to worry about (or not depending on where you travel).
Poseidal
[Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco
Hello Commander Sandmann!
You can't really "get rid" of a legacy fine - you simply pay it or avoid re-spawning at starports where it is valid. It's purely a personal fine that you may have to pay at some point.]
If I pay off the legacy fine, it is wiped then, and I don't have to worry about that incidence again? The 'permanent' was kind of concerning me.
Hello Commander Poseidal!
Yes, once a legacy fine is paid it is removed. It is simply permanent *until* it is paid. Even I'm not that cruel
Silex
Mike, Sandro. Further to my previous question, am I right in understanding as players with any form of criminal record, if we go the full 7 days without it being claimed or being destroyed, we'll no longer be paying off bounties at stations, but instead be paying off legacy fines?
Hello Commander Silex!
Yes, in essence, you will no longer pay off bounties, you will always be paying fines and legacy fines)
Mephane
Yeah, but that seems weird. So I commited multiple homicides in one Federation system, but I am not considered a criminal in any other Federation system? I would have much more preferred some emphasis on anarchy systems as the places where pirate go to to sell stolen goods, get ammo/repairs/equipment etc. instead of now being able to freely land in the neighbouring Fed system. Think about it, you could be the most wanted criminal in the galaxy, but if you haven't commited a crime in the actual Sol system, you can fly to Earth and no one gives a damn about your criminal record?
What now seems like increasing the consequences for crime (7 day bounty timer, bounties always turn into legacy fines...) becomes a rather toothless beast. Imho these new and very good mechanics should be added on top of the fact that a bounty in a Fed system, is a bounty in the entire Federation.
Hello Commander Mephane!
Interstellar bounties will hopefully answer the issue of consequence across major factions: when you have annoyed enough Federal minor factions, your criminal status will be upgraded to cover the entire Federation. Only now there will be better pacing (no more insta-Federal bounties).
Aigaion
About the speed being a crime, is it issuing a bounty OR a fine ?
I refuse to get a bounty for 7 days becous a random is ramming me, voluntairly or not, a fine yes, a bounty NO !
If you weren't speeding then you wouldn't be committing a crime.
Michael
DrakeAurum
One question: You've described how bounties interact with minor and major factions. Are there circumstances when a bounty can be issued across a Power faction - perhaps for one faction member killing another?
Powers don't issue bounties, it's done at a system level by the minor factions.
Michael
------
Hello Commanders!
I haven't managed to get to the end of this thread yet, but here are a few responses to issues that have been raised:
- Ramming is a bounty offence, not a fine. If it was a fine, it would not be a real consequence to boost-ramming, as you could destroy ships then pay off the fine straight away. It's tough, though no tougher than other starport offences.
- The 100 m p/s liability limit is *may* change. Whatever limit we have, we want to ensure that it's not possible to destroy a stock sidewinder travelling under it.
- When interstellar bounties arrive - they will trigger based on a credit value threshold for all bounties and fines added together for minor factions associated with a major faction.
- We'll hopefully make the docking computer immune from the ramming crime, allowing it to retain its current speeds.
- We will be looking to make sure that turrets don't trigger crimes by attacking innocent/un-scanned vessels.
- Basic scans *should definitely* be shared among a wing, as long as both ships were present when the target was scanned. If this is not happening it is a bug and should be ticketed.
- EDProtestgoat: I'll need to check with some clever coder folk on this, but I'm hopeful that we can have this crime not squawked with "don't report crimes against me": as long as all participants use this functionality then they would be safe to race near each other - though hitting spectators would still trigger the crime.
Hope these nuggets help.
------
Hello Commander Nagual!
I have to disagree a little with your assertion that gaining a bounty issued against you is a death sentence (though that's obviously the intention of the minor faction that issues it! ).
It certainly puts you at risk within the jurisdiction that issued the bounty, but nowhere else (sure, a bounty hunter *could* come after you in a different system, but that would mean they got a bounty issued against them, so one might imagine this would only occur when your bounty was a juicy enough prospect).
After seven days, the bounty is removed and converted to a fine, which is only valid within the jurisdiction, and which no-one can attack you for.
Combat and law are pretty significant elements in Elite: Dangerous, which was never intended to be an "arcade space shooter". Actions have consequences. This change is to hopefully remedy the issue that crime often does *not* have much consequence at the moment.
For sure though, we will want to crush any issues that might crop up with say, turrets getting you into hot water, because that's not the intention of turrets. Hopefully we'll get some good feedback when the beta goes live.
Hello Commanders!
Just to let you know, the issue of zealous police instantly dropping off their target and attacking you because you hit them is something we're looking at. No ETA or promises, but we're investigating ways of making them slightly more reasonable/sensible.
However, it must be remembered that it's very difficult for the game to understand player intent: when you have a bounty issued against you in this situation, it's because you aimed and fired a deadly weapon at their craft and dealt damage above a threshold, at a point when their target was not posing as much of a threat.
Hello Commander Nyres!
Not for 1.3, but we're hoping to add interstellar bounties later, which are the Federal/Imperial/Alliance bounties.
------
beelbeebub
Is the bounty tied to just a collision above the speed limit or is there a damage threshold i.e actual hull damage or 1 shield ring etc?
Just the speed of the collision.
Michael
Mad Mike
Not sure if already suggested however about accidental collisions where no one gets seriously damaged.......
A "forgive" option would be nice for minor collisions.... a quick message you have been involved in a non fault collision, do you want to press charges y/n would do me.
Is this something the Devs would consider?
Hello Commander Mad Mike!
We don't have any plans to implement a "forgive" option at the moment. Nothing wrong with the suggestion, we'd just rather focus on looking for an automated system.
Based on game play feedback, we might consider taking damage into account when working out if a collision crime should be applied. The bottom line is that we need to test the current proposal, which is why it's included in the beta.
Jerakeen
Everyone seems to be hung up on this collision penalty thing and nobody seems to want to address this gamebreaking flaw in the system.
Any chance of an official answer to this? Everybody makes mistakes occasionally. You can be as careful as you like but sometimes everyone hits that button a second too early. Is it really intended that accidentally firing on a wanted ship before the scan is completed should banish you from the system for a week?
The friendly fire is being loosened, but it is a balancing act. We're also adding it to player's ships as it currently applies to NPCs only. At some stage a penalty needs to be applied.
Michael
XHawk87
Agreed, however our point was not about accidental friendly fire, but about firing on a wanted target before the scan is complete, thus incurring an assault charge. This shouldn't be assault, a wanted ship should have no such protection under the law. The player did screw up, and should be punished, however it should be something proportional to what they actually did, failing to maintain trigger discipline, not a 7-day exile.
As for friendly fire, I don't see why someone shouldn't get fined for merely grazing a clean ship with their weapons during a firefight. Possibly even getting a warning from local authority to be careful, or even told to retract hardpoints and leave the area. "You're being too reckless, leave this to the professionals." Now that would be immersive gameplay, keeping it believable and fun.
Until the scan is complete you are not legally allowed to fire on the ship.
Michael
Ozric
Well perhaps Michael would be kind enough to ask those that do know, if he doesn't, whether every single NPC ship in the game that scans you to see what cargo you're carrying in order to pirate you for it, is indeed wanted. Because you're certainly not prepared to take my word for it that they're not
They're not necessarily wanted - it depends whether they've been caught doing it before
Michael
------
J0ker_MDK
Yes, but receiving a bounty which leads after seven days into a permanent penalty for just hitting accidentally another (unscanned pirate/friendly) vessel is another unfair (!) story. With turrest mounted on my Python this happend pretty often to me because I have no control where and when they fire.
I believe that there have been some turret fixes for Powerplay that will help with this.
Michael
------
-----
- Fines will now take seven days before they mature into bounties, so giving you more time to clear them off.
- Active bounties are changing so that they are issued by minor factions only, even for systems owned by one of the three major factions. You won’t be able to pay these bounties for seven days. We’ll tweak the friendly fire to be a bit more forgiving and we can balance this number further if needed. We’ll also apply the friendly fire to hits on players in the same way they are for NPCs.
- Whenever you commit a new bounty offence in a jurisdiction where you already have an active bounty then the bounty value is increased and the timer reset to seven days. If you gain a fine in the same jurisdiction then the bounty value is increased, but the timer is not reset.
- An active bounty is resolved in one of the following ways: Firstly if a ship detects the bounty and destroys you then the bounty is claimed and removed. Secondly if your ship is destroyed, but the bounty is not detected then the following happens: The bounty becomes dormant and can only be detected by authority scans by agents of that jurisdiction and if detected will become an active bounty with a new seven day timer. If a dormant bounty is not detected within seven days then it is removed. If an active bounty is not claimed or made dormant within seven days then it will be cleared.
- Note that when a bounty is removed, for whatever reason, it is added as a legacy fine for the same amount and for the same jurisdiction. Legacy fines never expire and are automatically added to the rebuy cost if you restart in a station or outpost owned by that minor faction.
- We recently added caps to bounties per jurisdiction. These caps will remain although they do not apply to fines and legacy fines.
- During the Powerplay beta we’ll also trial a new crime of ramming at speed within no fire zones. If travelling at over 100 m/s and you collide with another ship within the no fire zone then it will be considered a crime. There has been some vigorous debate on this so it will be interesting to hear peoples’ thoughts on this once it’s in place.
- Something we’re looking at a bit futher down the line, but might not make the Powerplay update is the concept of interstellar bounties. These occur when fines and/or bounties for minor factions within a major faction cross a threshold then they are combined into an interstellar bounty. They work in the same way as normal bounties except that the jurisdiction is counted as the whole of the major faction. There will be legacy interstellar fines in a similar way to the legacy fines already described.
------
roza3436
Sorry I am just a little confused. When you say, "You won’t be able to pay these bounties for seven days", does that mean we won't be able to cash in the bounties for seven days or does it mean we cannot pay off our own bounties for 7 days? Thanks for the update anyhow
You can't pay off bounties for seven days, you can still claim them immediately.
Michael
Hello Commander roza3436!
If a bounty is issued against you, you will not be able to pay it off for seven days.
JeffRyan
Interesting to see how this plays out, but doesn't really address the fact that bounties and police response doesn't seem to deter a lot of people from committing crimes and harassing other players (from what I've heard).
Hello Commander JeffRyan!
I think we'll have to wait and see what kind of impact these crime changes have, as they're quite significant. Also, the idea is not to prevent attacks (there is an adversarial element to this game) but to make the consequences appropriate.
DrSpin
This one is really interesting - presumably the fine cap still applies? If so it's a bit of a shame - I like the idea of a pirate with a 1billion credit bounty getting killed, and finding out that they have a 1billion extra added to the rebuy cost... ;-) Nevertheless, it's a really nice addition I think.
They could still build up a legacy fine that would then be applied to the rebuy cost in that jurisdiction.
Michael
Hello Commander DrSpin!
The idea is that the non-expiring fine a criminal is left with after a bounty ends will not be capped, which means they could still rack up enormous bills.
Robert Maynard
It will be interesting to see how this pans out - especially if both ships were travelling in excess of 100 m/s. The explanation as to how the game determines who caused the collision will be interesting to read.
Hello Robert Maynard!
If both ships are moving faster than 100 m p/s then both will have committed the crime, and both will feel the lash of a bounty and starport broadsides.
Sandmann
Does this mean there's room for further enhancements if you don't see the results you'd like?
Hello Commander Sandmann!
With a live game like this, we have to reserve the right to tweak and change if we see something going wrong.
Schlack
the changes look very interesting, hopefully should sort out some of issues. Looking forward to testing the ramming crime in Beta!
Could you please clarify whether system security is getting some attention? The differences between low medium and high security seem to be minimal. I know its a matter of delicate balancing but it seems that system authority responses in high security systems could be beefed up to ensure that piracy/crimes in High security areas have real consequences. At the moment security can be picked off as they arrive - particularly if a wing is in operation.
Hello Commander Schlack!
With these crime changes we'll be keeping an eye on all aspects of this game play, including system response.
Poseidal
100 m/s for ramming speed seems rather low.
I think 150 m/s is my standard 'safe' entry speed for the mailslot in my Clipper (haven't docked in a while though, being a few thousand light years away from the nearest station).
It'll be trialed in the Powerplay beta and we'll adjust if needed.
Michael
xyphic
Presumably both would be guilty of the crime. It'll at least cause players to be a little wary of entering stations at high speed -- making smuggling a bit more risky! -- but I'm not sure what effect it'll have on those currently exploiting ramming. It might also open up other exploits by making others into criminals by casually wandering in front of them when they're going slightly too quickly.
If both are speeding then both commit a crime.
Michael
Tusken
Maybe theres a misunderstanding here, shooting a target that is not scaned fully and thus not yet cleared as wanted also falls under FF to me.
Now there is 0 tollerance for that.
Will this change?
I keep it in mind but in hairy situations it still happends regularly.
If they're targeted then it's not accidental fire.
Michael
PatrickW
Hi, I have 3 questions:
[can only be detected by authority scans by agents of that jurisdiction]
A few requests have been made that dormant bounties should be detectable by a Kill Warrant Scanner and not only by police ships. Can you elaborate on why you thought this would not be a good idea?
[If an active bounty is not claimed or made dormant within seven days then it will be cleared.]
So to make sure I understand this, if you leave the system for 7 days and you are neither killed for the bounty, nor die in another way, the bounty reverts to a legacy fine?
Finally, just to be clear, the legacy fine will never turn back into a bounty? It just remains a fine forever until you pay it off or are forced to pay it off?
Hello Commander PatrickW!
Correct: when a bounty "ends" (it is claimed, ot times out) the criminal is left with a legacy fine which *never* goes away.
The primary function of the KW-scanner is to maximize profits for active bounties. The idea behind dormant bounties is to have a very soft criminal history element. It's certainly a valid suggestion to all KW-scanners to reactivate dormant bounties, but we'd want to chew over the idea, and only after we're confident the crime system changes are working as intended.
AidanPatrick
I'm glad to see that some of my post got through on the interstellar bounties bit. I'm personally not a fan of a 7 day bounty pay-off, or the automatic clearing of bounties... But it's still an improvement. I'd hope that interstellar bounties don't go away. Especially since it's the real bad ones that'll go interstellar.
Hello Commander Aidan Patrick!
The thing to remember about interstellar bounties (when they go live, which will be after 1.3), is that once they become a legacy fine, as they will after seven days of not being added to, the legacy fine will be applicable to *every* starport of the major faction. I'd suggest that this is fairly significant.
Sandmann
Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco
[Hello Commander PatrickW!
Correct: when a bounty "ends" (it is claimed, ot times out) the criminal is left with a legacy fine which *never* goes away.
The primary function of the KW-scanner is to maximize profits for active bounties. The idea behind dormant bounties is to have a very soft criminal history element. It's certainly a valid suggestion to all KW-scanners to reactivate dormant bounties, but we'd want to chew over the idea, and only after we're confident the crime system changes are working as intended.]
Hey again Sandro
If a player has a legacy fine, and then they gain another bounty does the legacy fine reactivate and/or get added to the bounty? Or does the player have an active bounty and an inactive fine?
Hello Commander Sandmann!
If you have a dormant bounty for a jurisdiction and you are scanned by the cops the dormant bounty will become active and the timer will reset to seven days.
If you are detected committing a fine offence the dormant bounty will become active, the timer will be reset to seven days and the fine will be added to its value.
If you are detected committing a bounty offence the dormant bounty will become active, the timer will be reset to seven days and the new bounty value will be added to it.
In short: if you have a dormant bounty, don't get scanned or detected committing crimes!
Sandmann
Sounds a bit confusing but makes sense after some thought. What about legacy fines? It sounds like an easy way to get rid of a legacy fine to reactivate it with a minor offence then pay off the whole lot if it becomes troublesome?
Hello Commander Sandmann!
Once you get a bounty issued against you, you will *always* end up with a legacy fine for it - there's not getting away from that.
So:
Bounty is claimed (a ship detects your bounty and destroys your ship) - bounty is removed and replaced with an equal value legacy fine (or a bigger fine if you had capped your bounty value).
Bounty is not claimed (your ship is destroyed without anyone detecting your bounty) - bounty becomes dormant.
Bounty timer expires (you survive without losing your ship for seven days) - bounty is removed and replaced by an equal value legacy fine (or a bigger fine if you had capped your bounty value).
Dormant bounty timer expires (after losing a ship with an active bounty, you then survive seven days with a dormant bounty) - bounty is removed and replaced by an equal value legacy fine (or a bigger fine if you had capped your bounty value).
The legacy fine is expressly to mitigate against exploits as well as to proved consequence.
Sandmann
Ahh ok.. and the incentive to pay the fine off is that if you die with the fine, it gets added to your re-buy cost, right? Effectively forcing you to pay it upon your death, or revert to a starter sidewinder? Coz if there's no incentive people will just fly around with enormous fines, with no reason to pay it off, and no way for bounty hunters to claim them.
What's to stop me gaining a couple of million in fines, getting into a sidewinder and getting myself dead, then not taking up the rebuy?
Hello Commander Sandmann!
You can't really "get rid" of a legacy fine - you simply pay it or avoid re-spawning at starports where it is valid. It's purely a personal fine that you may have to pay at some point.
Angus
So those people that beat the customs by forgetting stealth and just scorching in at full speed will have to be careful, right Michael?
Yes we will.
Michael
[Originally Posted by Sandmann
If you have a bounty in one part of space, and you're being a "goody" in another part and someone scans you with a KWS they will see that you have a bounty. You still won't be "wanted" in your current location so if they attack you they are then committing a crime themselves and will get a bounty... unless you're in an anarchy system where they will be able to claim your bounty (after scanning you to see that you have it) without committing a crime themselves.]
Thanks, Sandmann. That sounds about right. I take my chances that my secret past will be uncovered, and then I'll be at the mercy of my discoverer. I suppose if my bounty is big enough, it would be worthwhile for a bounty hunter to kill me an claim it even if they incur a smaller bounty themselves.
Hello Commander RobFisher!
The whole concept behind the crime system is to enable Commanders to be villains and heroes at the same time.
The KW-scanner is the bounty hunter's tool to see through this deception, but even then, it does not provide them with the right to kill a target if it is not wanted locally.
Mad Mike
I have been thinking about the 7 day thing.... and whilst I welcome it, I wonder.......... does this mean if I just stop playing for a week the bounty gets removed? IF one of the points of the bounty mechanic is to allow players to get their revenge, and to force CMDRs to run from the law for a while....
Would it not also be an idea to have a 2nd criteria which needs to be filled - to play X number of hrs in the game mode the bounty was picked up in.
So if I am in OPEN, not only would I need to tick the 7 day checkbox, but maybe also tick the "played 5hrs in OPEN" check box as well. (time docked at space station not counted )
Hello Commander Mad Mike!
You *could* stop playing for a week to avoid being hunted for a bounty, though that's a bit extreme. And regardless, you will end up with a legacy fine to worry about (or not depending on where you travel).
Poseidal
[Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco
Hello Commander Sandmann!
You can't really "get rid" of a legacy fine - you simply pay it or avoid re-spawning at starports where it is valid. It's purely a personal fine that you may have to pay at some point.]
If I pay off the legacy fine, it is wiped then, and I don't have to worry about that incidence again? The 'permanent' was kind of concerning me.
Hello Commander Poseidal!
Yes, once a legacy fine is paid it is removed. It is simply permanent *until* it is paid. Even I'm not that cruel
Silex
Mike, Sandro. Further to my previous question, am I right in understanding as players with any form of criminal record, if we go the full 7 days without it being claimed or being destroyed, we'll no longer be paying off bounties at stations, but instead be paying off legacy fines?
Hello Commander Silex!
Yes, in essence, you will no longer pay off bounties, you will always be paying fines and legacy fines)
Mephane
Yeah, but that seems weird. So I commited multiple homicides in one Federation system, but I am not considered a criminal in any other Federation system? I would have much more preferred some emphasis on anarchy systems as the places where pirate go to to sell stolen goods, get ammo/repairs/equipment etc. instead of now being able to freely land in the neighbouring Fed system. Think about it, you could be the most wanted criminal in the galaxy, but if you haven't commited a crime in the actual Sol system, you can fly to Earth and no one gives a damn about your criminal record?
What now seems like increasing the consequences for crime (7 day bounty timer, bounties always turn into legacy fines...) becomes a rather toothless beast. Imho these new and very good mechanics should be added on top of the fact that a bounty in a Fed system, is a bounty in the entire Federation.
Hello Commander Mephane!
Interstellar bounties will hopefully answer the issue of consequence across major factions: when you have annoyed enough Federal minor factions, your criminal status will be upgraded to cover the entire Federation. Only now there will be better pacing (no more insta-Federal bounties).
Aigaion
About the speed being a crime, is it issuing a bounty OR a fine ?
I refuse to get a bounty for 7 days becous a random is ramming me, voluntairly or not, a fine yes, a bounty NO !
If you weren't speeding then you wouldn't be committing a crime.
Michael
DrakeAurum
One question: You've described how bounties interact with minor and major factions. Are there circumstances when a bounty can be issued across a Power faction - perhaps for one faction member killing another?
Powers don't issue bounties, it's done at a system level by the minor factions.
Michael
------
Hello Commanders!
I haven't managed to get to the end of this thread yet, but here are a few responses to issues that have been raised:
- Ramming is a bounty offence, not a fine. If it was a fine, it would not be a real consequence to boost-ramming, as you could destroy ships then pay off the fine straight away. It's tough, though no tougher than other starport offences.
- The 100 m p/s liability limit is *may* change. Whatever limit we have, we want to ensure that it's not possible to destroy a stock sidewinder travelling under it.
- When interstellar bounties arrive - they will trigger based on a credit value threshold for all bounties and fines added together for minor factions associated with a major faction.
- We'll hopefully make the docking computer immune from the ramming crime, allowing it to retain its current speeds.
- We will be looking to make sure that turrets don't trigger crimes by attacking innocent/un-scanned vessels.
- Basic scans *should definitely* be shared among a wing, as long as both ships were present when the target was scanned. If this is not happening it is a bug and should be ticketed.
- EDProtestgoat: I'll need to check with some clever coder folk on this, but I'm hopeful that we can have this crime not squawked with "don't report crimes against me": as long as all participants use this functionality then they would be safe to race near each other - though hitting spectators would still trigger the crime.
Hope these nuggets help.
------
Hello Commander Nagual!
I have to disagree a little with your assertion that gaining a bounty issued against you is a death sentence (though that's obviously the intention of the minor faction that issues it! ).
It certainly puts you at risk within the jurisdiction that issued the bounty, but nowhere else (sure, a bounty hunter *could* come after you in a different system, but that would mean they got a bounty issued against them, so one might imagine this would only occur when your bounty was a juicy enough prospect).
After seven days, the bounty is removed and converted to a fine, which is only valid within the jurisdiction, and which no-one can attack you for.
Combat and law are pretty significant elements in Elite: Dangerous, which was never intended to be an "arcade space shooter". Actions have consequences. This change is to hopefully remedy the issue that crime often does *not* have much consequence at the moment.
For sure though, we will want to crush any issues that might crop up with say, turrets getting you into hot water, because that's not the intention of turrets. Hopefully we'll get some good feedback when the beta goes live.
Hello Commanders!
Just to let you know, the issue of zealous police instantly dropping off their target and attacking you because you hit them is something we're looking at. No ETA or promises, but we're investigating ways of making them slightly more reasonable/sensible.
However, it must be remembered that it's very difficult for the game to understand player intent: when you have a bounty issued against you in this situation, it's because you aimed and fired a deadly weapon at their craft and dealt damage above a threshold, at a point when their target was not posing as much of a threat.
Hello Commander Nyres!
Not for 1.3, but we're hoping to add interstellar bounties later, which are the Federal/Imperial/Alliance bounties.
------
beelbeebub
Is the bounty tied to just a collision above the speed limit or is there a damage threshold i.e actual hull damage or 1 shield ring etc?
Just the speed of the collision.
Michael
Mad Mike
Not sure if already suggested however about accidental collisions where no one gets seriously damaged.......
A "forgive" option would be nice for minor collisions.... a quick message you have been involved in a non fault collision, do you want to press charges y/n would do me.
Is this something the Devs would consider?
Hello Commander Mad Mike!
We don't have any plans to implement a "forgive" option at the moment. Nothing wrong with the suggestion, we'd just rather focus on looking for an automated system.
Based on game play feedback, we might consider taking damage into account when working out if a collision crime should be applied. The bottom line is that we need to test the current proposal, which is why it's included in the beta.
Jerakeen
Everyone seems to be hung up on this collision penalty thing and nobody seems to want to address this gamebreaking flaw in the system.
Any chance of an official answer to this? Everybody makes mistakes occasionally. You can be as careful as you like but sometimes everyone hits that button a second too early. Is it really intended that accidentally firing on a wanted ship before the scan is completed should banish you from the system for a week?
The friendly fire is being loosened, but it is a balancing act. We're also adding it to player's ships as it currently applies to NPCs only. At some stage a penalty needs to be applied.
Michael
XHawk87
Agreed, however our point was not about accidental friendly fire, but about firing on a wanted target before the scan is complete, thus incurring an assault charge. This shouldn't be assault, a wanted ship should have no such protection under the law. The player did screw up, and should be punished, however it should be something proportional to what they actually did, failing to maintain trigger discipline, not a 7-day exile.
As for friendly fire, I don't see why someone shouldn't get fined for merely grazing a clean ship with their weapons during a firefight. Possibly even getting a warning from local authority to be careful, or even told to retract hardpoints and leave the area. "You're being too reckless, leave this to the professionals." Now that would be immersive gameplay, keeping it believable and fun.
Until the scan is complete you are not legally allowed to fire on the ship.
Michael
Ozric
Well perhaps Michael would be kind enough to ask those that do know, if he doesn't, whether every single NPC ship in the game that scans you to see what cargo you're carrying in order to pirate you for it, is indeed wanted. Because you're certainly not prepared to take my word for it that they're not
They're not necessarily wanted - it depends whether they've been caught doing it before
Michael
------
J0ker_MDK
Yes, but receiving a bounty which leads after seven days into a permanent penalty for just hitting accidentally another (unscanned pirate/friendly) vessel is another unfair (!) story. With turrest mounted on my Python this happend pretty often to me because I have no control where and when they fire.
I believe that there have been some turret fixes for Powerplay that will help with this.
Michael
------
Last edited:
