Why are players treated differently then NPCs?

[Joe Spivey]

My worry with the transponder off option is it will be fine for "honest" gamers but that some people and probably the very people you are trying to avoid will just analyse their network and so they will have a good idea who you are but you will be oblivious until it is too late.

I do understand Jeff's concern too. Not sure if it would be an issue but sometimes once open the box there is no going back.

I understand your own concern, even though how this is achieved is beyond me. Fortunately, I also think this will be beyond the majority of gamers who, like me, just want to play a game. As for the minority who get their jollies from doing this kind of thing, stuff 'em. If that's what it takes to 'do it' for them then I have nothing but scorn towards their ilk. I doubt, though, that their numbers are enough to seriously detract from the benefits I see from the use of transponders. I understand that there are other exploits being used in the game that utilise this tomfoolery but still the game continues.

I doubt this is a Pandora's Box scenario. If using transponders does not work out to the benefit of the game, I see no difficulty in 'putting the lid back on' and returning to the status quo.

 

[Riktar]

Have fun in Solo, stop trying to ruin the ONLY OPEN PVP EXPERIENCE AVAILABLE for those who want it. If Open gets carebeared, that limits the options for gameplay. There are plenty of PvE options in this game already. More than most MMOs.

PvP is not the issue. It's about PaP (Player attacking Player in case it needs to be spelled out) occurring in Open mode.

And before all the condescending (carebear, etc.) remarks start, let me clarify: Pirates who communicate their intention with other players are role-playing. You may not like the role they play, but it is a role.

Buttheads who just attack anything smaller than themselves are hiding behind the "psychopath" term. They are not roleplaying. They are just enjoying ruining other player's game.

And THAT is why I would like the transponder option.

- - - Updated - - -

I doubt this is a Pandora's Box scenario. If using transponders does not work out to the benefit of the game, I see no difficulty in 'putting the lid back on' and returning to the status quo.

+1 a hundred times over.

 

[Lobstris]

Funnily enough someone else, can't remember who, perhaps Robert (I'm sure he'll let me know if it wasn't him) said the opposite that having seen the game in action they've changed their minds.

I think that may have been me Jeff. Having got the heck away from the starter systems I'm lucky to have no real concept of 'griefing', 'p2p' etc. as I'm lucky to see one commander a week. Even in the core systems, you're generally lucky to pass a couple of commanders a day, and everytime I've seen someone they've been either friendly or completely indifferent to me. Hardly an advert for the need to either a) run away to solo, or b) hide a player from me. So, having seen the game in action I'm in a quandary as, whilst I like seeing the occasional player flit by, I also fundamentally hate the idea of players and NPCs being distinct entities in the simulation.
.
Therefore, I'd still like to see the transponder implemented for a period, just to see how people behave. Either that, or some kind of stealth mechanism should be brought in to allow people to be more sneaky in supercruise (tying visibility to ship speed, mass, FSD modules and scanners would be a start). Also, I'd just like to see something like the transponder implemented to mitigate the feeling that all of the hand-wringing and discussion in the DDFs wasn't completely pointless.

 

[Lobstris]

Which is the same thing as saying that they're unrepresentative and therefore of little real value.

Ah! I see you're familiar with the 'First Past the Post' electoral system we use in the UK! (Sorry, should keep politics out...)

 

[babelfisch]

I don't know what I would prefer.

Pro:
- immersion
- more options
- more people in open
- ability to hide from others without switching to solo
- less difference between NPCs and CMDRs

Contra:
- people are divided further (group with transponder on and off)
- less interaction

Have I forgot something?

 

[Armour]

Contra:
- people are divided further (group with transponder on and off)
- less interaction

People would still be in the same mode. It's not like a private transponder group would exist. And the amount of interaction would be the same. People wouldn't be aware of some of that interaction until it became obvious by their behaviour (and possibly their communications), but the interaction would still exist.

 

[oceancalm]

Cowardly wings? Wings are literally just small groups of people who fight together. By your logic, armies are all full of cowards because they cooperate and fight together. Squads are composed of 4-8 cowards, because a real fighter would be a idiot and go out on his own and get his brains blown out.

Instead of being a whiney about an EXTREMELY SMALL MECHANIC that allows for some semblance of teaming, a part of EVERY SINGLE MMO, why don't you just wing with other people?

I will never understand the people who buy this game to play it alone and then have the gall to yell at other people for not wanting to play this game like an RPG. It's marketted as an MMO and it has both gameplay styles, why can't you just live and let live? I'm not calling you a pathetic, weak player incapable of defending himself, mad cuz bad. You can play how you want and I will play how I want.

Don't most mmo's have combat areas and safe areas to prevent griefing in the main hub of the game?

I just really fail to see the point in playing an MMO where you can't see anyone. And others can't see you.

As for why PvPers would hunt with their transponders off, well... they don't want players who are playing with transponders on to see them.

There's also ways around knowing how many people are in your instance via network traffic, which will give 'big-time' PvPers, particularly those who want to kill people, a big advantage. They can 'see you' but most people won't be able to 'see them'.

Third party tools will spring up to monitor network traffic and those will mainly be used by people looking to PvP.

You can still see people, they just don't have a big neon sign saying "Hi I'm a PF" , their network monitoring tools will let them know if there are PF in their instance not who they are they'd still have to work it out, as to the other side, they'd be taking the assumption any craft approaching is PF rather than oh its NPF.

 

[popuptoaster]

Many MMO games have separate servers where you can "interact" but PvP is not allowed, when you generate your toon you decide if you want to be on a PvP or PvE server.

There are posters in this thread who are worried that transponders or separate open modes will limit their targets that much is clear, if you want to PvP that's fine but why all the panic about those who don't want to having the right to turn off a transponder?

It should make NO difference to a PvP player unless they PLAN on killing other players whether that player wishes to participate or not.

You wont be reducing the numbers of player targets who want to PvP, you'll only be reducing the numbers of players targets who don't want to fight you anyway and of course you wouldn't force YOUR game style on those players now would you?????

 

[babelfisch]

People would still be in the same mode. It's not like a private transponder group would exist. And the amount of interaction would be the same. People wouldn't be aware of some of that interaction until it became obvious by their behaviour (and possibly their communications), but the interaction would still exist.

Maybe if you are at a RES, conflict zone or station entrance. But I don't think that you could tell a NPC from a CMDR in SC making interaction with him pure luck.

 

[GimpstersGhost]

When I started this thread I did not even know about the previous discussions or the concept of player PvP transponders. Nor was my concern or objective to find ways for players to avoid PvP, it was an idea to not have players unduly stand out. It should always be possible to distinguish a player from an NPC, I just don't think it needs to be something that is instantly known. It is no different then a police officer approaching a person on the street, they do not know the background of the person until they take to the person or look them up in their system. They can make assumptions or deductions based on what they see but there are always some unknowns.

Why is that a bad thing in games such as these?

 

[JeffRyan]

When I started this thread I did not even know about the previous discussions or the concept of player PvP transponders. Nor was my concern or objective to find ways for players to avoid PvP, it was an idea to not have players unduly stand out. It should always be possible to distinguish a player from an NPC, I just don't think it needs to be something that is instantly known. It is no different then a police officer approaching a person on the street, they do not know the background of the person until they take to the person or look them up in their system. They can make assumptions or deductions based on what they see but there are always some unknowns.

Why is that a bad thing in games such as these?

I have no problem with something like a scan or even targetting to be necessary. I have a problem with the pro-choice group saying that people who want to avoid interaction with players spoil up the only pure 'open' slice of the game that's left.

1. I don't want to interact with anyone: Solo
2. I want to interact only with friends: Groups
3. I want to interact with everyone: Open

Some people since time immemorial haven't been happy with 1 and 2 being available for those want some restricted interaction and also have wanted to weaken even 3.

So 3 will become:
3a Transponder On, You can see only other people with Transponder On, but you won't be able to see a lot of people with Transponder Off.
3b Transponder Off, You can't see any other players, effectively making the game indistinguishable from 1 unless by chance something happens that lets you know that someone else is a player.

I just find it abhorrent that some people just aren't happy no matter what and want to weaken the Open experience. It's complicated for no good reason.

Nobody has really answered Why though. The only pro I can see is people might not play in Solo or a Group but join Open but since you can't actually tell this. The overall effect will be their will be MORE players in Open, but less interaction because after you scan a few NPCs and see they're NPCs or spend twenty minutes trying to figure out if Bob is Cmdr Bob or NPC Bob you'll tire of trying to figure it out. Most people I predict will fly with Transponder Off thinking most people with Transponder On will be PvPers.

 

[AlexRyder]

I'd be very happy if players were indistinguishable from npcs on the scanner, it would completely do away with complaints about random interdictions and combat since that's how the NPCs behave anyway.

 

[Megameatloaf]

Pretty much this and what SteveLaw says.

Why hobble the interactive side of the game just because of the OP's misapprehension that the game is mostly full of random PKers. All the random chats I've had with people would now no longer be viable and one of the most interesting aspects of playing in Open would disappear. I'd sooner that they showed a 3rd icon for those that don't want the risk or chance of combat in open with a cotton wool icon and essentially make them ghosts that have no physical existence for other players in open.

Honestly, this kind of sums it up for me. I began at LHS 1337 and had a very lonely experience starting out. By the time they updated the matchmaking server to better group people together I had already made my way up to Alliance space. It has been fairly quiet up here to, in a pleasant way. In recent weeks I have seen traffic start to increase exponentially, whether its because more people are making there way up here or because the game in general is growing population I'm not sure. But I have NEVER been fired upon, interdicted or even griefed by a player. So much so that everytime I see somebody pop into the system I get excited, wondering if I am going to finally experience my first bit of PvP.

I think the 'Jimmy Rustlers' (the people whose only interest is to you off, usually in a very immersion breaking way) tend to be exclusive to places where there is a good flow of CMDR traffic, such as rare good stations or stations near community goals. I have spent very little to no time around this places, though not exactly by choice, and have yet to have a single bad experience. I have never played in solo.


The moral? Move to Alliance space. Not much happens on the galnet, but its full of nice people that are always happy to have a chat or group up. Im sure once the 1.3 drops and assuming there is an Alliance faction, or at least an independent faction based in Alliance space, we will see more people and more action up here. The hard life and lack of convienances means that the only CMDR's up here are the quality ones happy to put in the extra effort to support a good cause.

 

[jabokai]

Whatever JeffRyan has said in this thread I will no doubt agree wholeheartedly with, as I did all the other times this topic has come up.

Personally I think that FD have realised that the way it is will make for the better experience in the long run and have abandoned the transponder idea. I might be wrong, but with the game having come this far without that, with people growing into the game as it is, with criminality issues being addressed, with solo and group (and Mobius PvE) being options, I really don't think they'd introduce such a game changer at this stage - it'd cause much more hassle than leaving things as they are, particularly with the multiplayer focused patches we've had.

In short, I'm glad it is the way it is and sincerely think it will stay that way, thankfully.

 

[Billy Guiguips]

My thoughts on this subject, as I have posted previously in another similar thread, is this: When I first started playing I did not know how to tell the difference between PC and NPC, and fully enjoyed the POSSIBILITY that every ship I came across COULD BE a real human player. So regardless if there was really only 0.001 percent PCs, it seemed like a lot more and was really fun. Once I found out how to tell the difference, by the CMDR name and the hollow blips, the excitement was lost. Now I KNEW that this ship playing a game of chicken with me was an NPC, not a human. Not as much fun as thinking it may be human, so treat it like one and enjoy the interaction.

This is exatcly my feeling here. Dats the only reason why i can't agree more with the idea of not be able to recognise. this difference kind of thing is an immersion breaking for me. When i didnt know how to tell the difference and i was intercept in SC i was like " oh oh " now i am more like " sight, lets do it quicly, i got better things to do"...

I think another way to resolve the pinata game ( wings of 4cmdrs vs 1 cmdr) will be the NPC Wings: once we have that, it will be more secure.

 

[GimpstersGhost]

I honestly think the underlying issue is TTR (Time To Recovery). In games focused on PvP the TTR is rather low. Games like Freespace, SC Arena Commander, etc. Once your ship is blown up you either get right back in the action after a respawn or at the end of a short session. PvP is the focus and expected and ship destruction is trivial. Other games which are not focused on PvP but in which it is also highly likely or death vs NPC are very common like most MMORPGs, also have a fairly low TTR. You generally have a corpse run, minimal XP or item durability loss and that's it. The thing these games all have in common is a large player base and the games put fun in front of realism/plausibility.

Now games like Elite, EVE and the upcoming SC Persistent Universe have taken a different approach. We are playing in a game space, not focused on PvP but highly focused on simulating a plausible living open world sandbox. The one thing these games have in common is a rather high TTR when compared to other games. As a generality TTR in Elite and EVE is measured in Hours while FPS and MMORPGs have a TTL measures in Minutes.

It tends to put a large damper on the fun factor of the group of players not focused on PvP as they more often then not become the victims of those who are focused on PvP in games like Elite. The threat of ship destruction in and of itself adds a lot to the fun factor, so long as one of two things are true. If the probability of ship destruction is high, then the TTR needs to be low or if the probability of ship destruction is low and thus easy to avoid or escape then the TTR can be fairly high.

Currently in Elite and similar games the probability of ship destruction in the Open play option is fairly high when faced with PvP focused players and is combined with a rather High TTR for ship destruction, which increases with ship value, which is itself a rather steeply rising curve.

Is this something we can all agree on or is my understanding of the situation incorrect?

If my logic is not flawed, then any solutions we may find need to address the fundamental balance between Chance of Loss verses Time to Recover.

 

[Joe Spivey]

Some people since time immemorial haven't been happy with 1 and 2 being available for those want some restricted interaction and also have wanted to weaken even 3.

So 3 will become:
3a Transponder On, You can see only other people with Transponder On, but you won't be able to see a lot of people with Transponder Off.
3b Transponder Off, You can't see any other players, effectively making the game indistinguishable from 1 unless by chance something happens that lets you know that someone else is a player.

I just find it abhorrent that some people just aren't happy no matter what and want to weaken the Open experience. It's complicated for no good reason.

Nobody has really answered Why though. The only pro I can see is people might not play in Solo or a Group but join Open but since you can't actually tell this. The overall effect will be their will be MORE players in Open, but less interaction because after you scan a few NPCs and see they're NPCs or spend twenty minutes trying to figure out if Bob is Cmdr Bob or NPC Bob you'll tire of trying to figure it out. Most people I predict will fly with Transponder Off thinking most people with Transponder On will be PvPers.

You're being a bit of a Negative Nancy here. With transponder off you can still see other players, you may just have to look harder... you know... like realistically. This could actually add to the gameplay by a) Making it more exciting for both parties as a game of cat and mouse and b) It gives those who want to interact/chat with other players the chance to do so while giving them more chance of not having to interact/PvP by avoiding it in a more realistic fashion.

And you cannot just assert that there will be less interaction or that most players will fly with transponder off for fear of PvPers because you have no way of knowing that. Really, the only players that may have any serious objection will be those who just want to find easy prey. Why don't we do a Beta? Play with transponders for a month or so and see what actually happens?

 

[JeffRyan]

You're being a bit of a Negative Nancy here.

I'm being negative? Heheh... yeah....

Let's leave it alone then if we're going to be positive

I think I'm done in this thread, I've made my point, I'm not going to change, I argued the hell out of this the last couple of times it came up, my views are out there. The people I'm arguing with now ain't going to change either, we'll just go round and round.

 

[GimpstersGhost]

I have to agree with JeffRyan in that PvP flagging in a sandbox universe game is not viable. The threat of attack needs to exist, it ads with the excitement and emersion, it just needs to have a better RoP vs TTR.

 

[Goilveig]

It would tone down positive interactions much more heavily than negative ones. Anyone actually trying to hunt and kill players can very easily tell the difference between a player and an AI. Anyone trying to have positive interactions (chatting, grouping, etc.) is unlikely to invest the extra effort to do so.

This idea, or the transponder idea, would make the interactions on the game much, much worse, by keeping the negatives and removing the positives.