No money for insurance -> basically delete your game

[BlackSparki]

OP here.

Since it was the first time for me in over 200 hours that my ship got destroyed and I didnt have the credits to pay the insurance, it was quite a surprise to me.
And it's kinda funny to see, that even though everybody seems to be fed with these kind of threads, there is still so many feedback, which obviously shows the need for an advanced discussion about it.
I really liked some of the ideas and I still stick to the point, that having at least a more obvious information/warning about this or another way instead of deleting your progress, would be an overall improvement to the game.
And by the way: since I got destroyed due to a lag, I wrote a ticket and got my credits for the ship refunded. (I want to thank stoicfury in advance for this actual piece of information)
Greetz

 

[Agarthan]

Hi,

But what the actual is this? Never did the game explain to me, that if I don't have enough money for my insurance and the 600,000 loan are not enough, my progress of hundreds of hours is gone forever.

You mean in 200 hours you never read the first screen on the systems panel, where it clearly shows you your rebuy cost right under your ranking?

 

[Agarthan]

A couple of things that I might agree would enhance this aspect.

1.) Create a banking menu, provide the option for an escrow account (even better with the option to auto-debit a percentage of your income to a configurable amount) to put away money for insurance with a little warning when your insurance exceeds your escrow. You could also put some loan options on there too for quicker pay-off.

I like this, because it isn't hand-holding, just a tool that would likely exist in any reality. It isn't fully automatic, you have to set it up and use it and you'll be in danger while you are putting away money.

2.) Since the insurance in this game isn't actually like real insurance (paying after the crash) it could be changed slightly. The insurance payment becomes a copay and insurance itself becomes embedded in the price of the ship. So if you don't have the co-pay, you don't get your ship back, but you get in credits the value minus insurance. A royal pain as you have to go buy your ship stuff up again and won't get it to the same place right away, but you aren't dead for lack of a few thousand credits.

This makes a little more sense, but takes away a lot of risk, which I think takes away some fun. But then, I'm the guy who will buy a throw-away eagle and keep it for those times my credits run low so that I'm never running in an uninsured ship. So there really isn't risk except for people like this guy who just didn't realize the consequences.

3.) Put a grace period on the insurance. Slap them in a PoS (maybe an eagle with no shields, minimal hold, one laser) as a loaner and give them a time-limit to get the money and make the insurance claim. This would provide more advantage to having multiple ships as you can take the loaner to wherever your other ship is to help you make the money.

These options provided, I don't want to see death become meaningless. I've slammed a hauler-cobra full of high-value cargo into a space station and lost a ton of credits. I didn't get caught by the insurance, but I pretty well undid an entire night of trading. It sucked when it happened, but it was my own fault for taking a lot of risk by docking at ridiculous speeds to cut down the round trip time and make more money. And I had plenty of fun getting the money back the next day. Again though, not really an insurance problem, so I'm ok with adding in some better handling of that aspect and maybe focusing on other aspects on death (maybe requiring some damages paid depending on what you run into, etc..)

If they end up adding the ability to start colony's and build your own stations this would make sense.

 

[Agarthan]

People who don't get this are the reason there are warnings like: "Don't put your hamster in the microwave." - "Don't use hairdryer while under the shower." or similar in this world.

Instructions:

Remove poptart from wrapper before putting in toaster

 

[Agarthan]

How about that: Make all ships dirty cheap. Anaconda 10000 cr., FDL 5000 cr, Clipper 500 cr. Nobody would complain about loosing a ship. Nobody would complain about grievers or rammers or combat logging. Simply remove the whole "ship progression" thing. I guess people would find something to complain about, but certainly not because flying around without insurance.

[video=youtube;vlv6BrrxD_4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlv6BrrxD_4[/video]

 

[msyblade]

Feel free to simply edit your 1st post and add the others as you answer them, rather than 4 separate entries. Not a big deal, just offering some forum etiquette advice.

 

[p.opus]

Got rammed by a viper today that I was hunting. I was on the tail end of a boost, so there was a little more inertia there than normal....Killed him....and me in the process.

Lost about 500K in bounty, but since I hold at least 5x my ship buyback cost in reserve cash, it was just a nice time to stop for the evening.

Really I blame "DOOM". Doom ushered in the idea of GOD MODE. That intoxicating feeling that you are invincible and can and should be able to waltz into a danger zone without planning with no concern for your own health.

Maybe it's a generational thing. Games used to have health and when you died, you died. Now you get shot up, hide behind a dumpster and wait for your health to auto regenerate. And if you die, well you just return to your auto save point that you mash every 30 seconds or so.

This game is not those games. There is a cost to acting foolishly and quite frankly 5% of your total value of your ship is a pretty small price. Yet somehow it seems beyond the comprehensive of certain individuals here that this game can kill you rather quickly. A bit of foolishness, a bit of inattention, or just plain bad luck may be what causes you to meet you end in the void.

The thing is, you know this going in. You really shouldn't upgrade a ship beyond your buyback cost unless you have 3x the buyback in cash. (I call it the three lives rule....old school, I know). I like to have the really old school 5 balls rule.

Still. I do feel sorry for those folks. They have grown up living in a dream world fabricated by their overprotective parents. A world where everything is handed to them on a silver platter, and they have been raised with the expectation that they should never feel discomfort, face adversity, face pain, or be in the least bit offended.

Welcome to the real world people. There IS a center of the universe....you're just not it.

 

[Jaeger]

Again, please can we have a No Insurance sub forum.

The forum is the "No Insurance" forum.

That's the way it is when you have a borked game mechanic in a game. Where are the missions options to recover your ship... In powerplay I hope along with the revised creditors that are promised.

 

[Jaeger]

There is a center of the universe....you're just not it p.opus

DOOM pfft.. So not the way ... being destroyed used to cost you in terms of not being able to get to your destination. There was nothing wrong with that as a penalty. Having to pay ultimate price is a sadistic game mechanic, stringent death penalties alienate players and stifle risk taking making the game less fun for everyone. Elite should not be a survival game, everyone should not be forced to play Ironman. There should be a check box to delete your commander if thats what you really want for yourself. So you can play your own way and keep your nose out of others business.

Excluding masochists Iron Man death penalties make the game more boring for everyone.

 

[Dave021]

I deal with that this way...

Always invest in 2 ships.

One for combat and the other for trading / exploring.

I agree with OP here,

I think you should have to pay your insurance OR wait hours / days to get it back ONLY IF YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY. (the more expansive the more you can't have your ship) You lost your Anaconda? Well, you'll have to wait 7 days to get it back.
Even allow us to remove upgrades from it so we can buy it back at a lower price. It could be an effective way of not abusing the feature too.

 

[p.opus]

Iron Man death penalties would be if they just killed you and you had to buy everything back. That's the way it USED to be in Elite 84. If you didn't buy an escape pod, you didn't get your ship back. You started back from fresh.

This is not masochistic. It requires you to actually use that thing on your shoulders for something more than keeping your ear lobes from flapping together.

Anyone who flys out of a dock without the ability to buy back their ship at least 5 times is an idiot, plain and simple. Anyone who prematurely upgrades to a new ship without having 5 times the rebuy value is an idiot, plain and simple.

This is not a survival game, but the game mechanic allows you to to protect yourself.

You remind me of the guy who sat on the roof while his house was flooding, a guy in a car came by and said, I'm here to save you...The guy said, no thanks. The Lord will deliver me.
Then a guy comes up in a boat and says, get in the boat...The man says. The Lord is my Savior. The water continues to rise and the guy is on the roof. A helicopter hovers over and the pilot shouts...Get in the basket. The man says, God is my co-pilot I have no need of you.

The man dies. When he gets to heaven he complains to God. Why didn't you rescue me....God said, I sent you a car, a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want?

Bottom line is, the game mechanic as it is gives you COMPLETE and UTTER control of your own destiny. The manual talks about insurance, the buyback cost is clearly listed on the right hand UI panel. What more do you freaking need?

I'm sorry. I have no sympathy for idiots who completely ignore advise and the game mechanic which will save their bacon, and then complain later because no one saved their bacon. If you need someone to blame, simply look in a mirror.

 

[Agarthan]

Feel free to simply edit your 1st post and add the others as you answer them, rather than 4 separate entries. Not a big deal, just offering some forum etiquette advice.

Or, just, you know extend the window that the bb code automatically does that with consecutive posts, since it already does it here.

 

[SteveLaw]

DOOM pfft.. So not the way ...

Yeah, it'll never catch on.

 

[AveMe]

Hi,

Even though I'm mildy mad, I'll try to explain the point (I'm sure this is posted every week, at least).
To start from the beginning:
Actually I do like and love hardcore games, I do like games that make me think, that make me want to get better, that have a very steep learning curve.
I don't have a problem with dying, or dying often, or dying every damn time in a damn game, till you learn how to develop yourself.
But what the actual is this? Never did the game explain to me, that if I don't have enough money for my insurance and the 600,000 loan are not enough, my progress of hundreds of hours is gone forever.
Details might bore you, but in 200 hours and 30.000.000 credits later, it was the first time ever I got into this situation. In this ressource point with these many asteroids, I got a lag and my Clipper crashed into the big damn stone.
Instant death.
And now I have to start over with the Sidewinder and the bit credits I got left _again_ to grind 200 hours _a_g_a_i_n_?!
Isn't there any better solution for this?
Frontier, don't you got any alternative, instead of basically deleting everything the player has ever achieved?
Couldn't there be a hardcore mode or at least a big damn warning sign at the beginning?

I hope FD will add rank requirements for ships. It will stop grinders.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143952

 

[Stigbob]

Iron Man death penalties would be if they just killed you and you had to buy everything back. That's the way it USED to be in Elite 84. If you didn't buy an escape pod, you didn't get your ship back. You started back from fresh.

That Sir, is a finely crafted rant with a joke. Have rep.

 

[ChaosBlades]

I just wish you could separate insurance from your balance and not let the game spend from that amount. So many times I have to bust out a calculator to do a little math. Basically pre-pay your insurance ahead of time. There is no way possible I am flying my almost maxed out Anaconda without insurance!

Basically the whole mechanic is just a tease trying to get you to spend that 11 million CR (in my case) so the system can delete your game when you do something stupid. I understand why it is there but it just doesn't really add to the game. I also understand "Just don't fly without enough for insurance!". I feel like there needs to be some other negative to dieing instead of "Game Over, Save Deleted dummy should of had enough for your insurance deductible!" It isn't fun, exciting, or thrilling in real life nor is it in a game. This is one of the mechanics that needs cut even from a sim because it is just so boring and annoying.

Perhaps instead of basically deleting your game... Say you crash your Anaconda and instead of getting a free Sidewinder you get a free Python. The people that hand out the free Sidewinders realize at this point you are worth more than a Sidewinder and 1,000CR.

 

[dayrth]

...Even allow us to remove upgrades from it so we can buy it back at a lower price. It could be an effective way of not abusing the feature too.

You can do this now. If you don't have enough money to buy back your ship at full spec, you can switch off individual modules to lower the cost.

 

[CMDR DoubleSkulls]

I hope FD will add rank requirements for ships. It will stop grinders.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143952

Doesn't this just change the nature of the grind from trading grind to rep grind? Forcing people to play ED a certain way sort of spoils it for me. I like you can set your own goals and do your own thing.

 

[AveMe]

Doesn't this just change the nature of the grind from trading grind to rep grind? Forcing people to play ED a certain way sort of spoils it for me. I like you can set your own goals and do your own thing.

If you wanna buy cobra - you need novice in fight. You cant buy it without ~2-4 hours of combat.
If you wanna buy ASP - you need scout and novice.
If you wanna buy Anaconda - you need master, brooker and traiblazer.
It will stop "mostly harmless" condas, and situation like this one.

 

[clinton]

I think many people here are missing the point.

Yes, if you fly without insurance you're an idiot. If you walk around at night in Honduras waving money about you're an idiot also. That doesn't make armed robbers good people we should encourage, and not does it make insurance as it is a sensible game mechanic.

Insurance excess should come out of the sale price of the insured ship with the remainder returned in cash.

Second hand sale prices should also be decreased, and insurance costs increased for repeated deaths over the last week, but they're other matters, but they may be appropriate to bring in at the same time.