Opinion: Why Pirating pay may not need buffed.

If you want piracy to be a viable role split cargo on ship destruction. A small portion spills in space and the bulk reappears with your new ship. A cargo insurance implementation is exactly the solution this thread is looking for to improve the piracy role, and the game would be better all round.

Cargo insurance is really needed mainly so we can read all the "I didn't have enough insurance for my cargo" threads (I jest). The counter is in the game but as usual "coming soon".

They really need to up the bounties as well. I've killed a few T9 traders filled with palladium (apparently they like to fight and then self destruct) and I'm get a 6k bounty whilst the trader is suffering a 10mil loss. This needs to be changed.

The current tools for the job are as half baked as traders counter measures. Limpets are junk and so is shooting the cargo hatch the same way mines and missiles are for traders.

I don't have all the answers but something needs to change, 1.3 is a step in the right direction but it'll be a small step.
 
If there were less ludicrous death penalties taking risks would be more fun, more people would play in open, and piracy would be a more viable role.

I disagree with everything about this statement; the core premised it's based on is a farce.

Death penalties in ED are trivial and this is a major reason why taking risks are trivial. Many people would find the game more fund with more risk, and greater penalties for taking those risks and failing.
 
What a great bunch of suggestions! Rep and all.

One way to make piracy more exciting would be to make sure that some of the "piracy" upgrades only available on smaller ship types, thereby creating a situation where using the top end ships to pirate would become far less attractive and levelling the playing field, so that there could be some really touch and go chases between traders and pirates where pure skill would play a large part.

It would also be fun to have an option to dump goods one ton at a time, thereby leaving the pirate with a tough choice between stopping and picking up the goodies floating in space, or gambling on pulling the ship he/she was chasing up (-:

And what about including the odd booby-trapped container? Scoop one of those and pow!

(-:

ahhh of course the exploding palladium trick foiled again! :D

id like to see a small ship equivocal to the python and clipper but in a smaller less expensive package.
lots of power overhead with high speed and an augmented mass lock value.
Essentially a faster more manuverable asp with a couple more utility slots.

The asp makes a good cheap pirate ship due to its abundant internals and mass lock value but it lacks the speed and bite really needed to take on the larger ships, or to plunder another day when a clipper shows up.
Perhaps this is an area the new ships will cover but as it stands now the cheapest pirate ship that has enough capacity speed and bite to be effective is the clipper or FDL.

the asp can be very effective as can the dropship but again the asp lacks bite to take on the armored traders and the dropship isn't exactly cheap and relies on destroying or disabling before the target picks up too much speed. And all of these ships are multimillion credit ships.

the only way to make the smaller super cheap ships like the cobra into an effective pirate ship are utilities to make it more effective without driving up the price or needing a new platform.

I love the idea's you have posted here. Repped.

Honestly, Cash sinks one and all, they all have a common theme. Whether or not people think that a certain "cash sink" is a good idea doesnt matter.

What we need is Options. Options for versatility. Options for creativity. Options for Uniqueness.

I believe that they are moving in the right direction by adding weapons/modules specific to certain powers. I want to see another player and wonder (sometimes in fear) as to what power he is associated with. I want to wonder if this CMDR has an affiliation with a faction that provides a module/weapon that will help/hurt me. When he deploys his hardpoints, I want to wonder if he has something I have never seen before....

What we want is more variations of CMDRs along with the actual content. Cash sinks dont have to be these giant affairs that take hundreds of millions to complete/build/acquire. They can be as simple as the ideas Troa has suggested.

Now, if FDev can just expand upon all of this...
It really makes this an exciting time for the game. They have opened the door to many new possibilities, lets just hope the fan base, in general, can continue to Hold that door open...
Thank you :D
options are really lacking in the game at the moment, there are only a few ships that are worth keeping for their use and a complete lack in the outfitting department.

there are only a handful of things to do and certian ships excell at these while leaving the rest behind.
Take the type 6 as an example of this, it's a stepping stone ship that once you get an asp it is obsolete you sell it. Other than nostalgias sake there are better tools for the job you aren't going to keep it. The type 6 and a number of other ships need to have a reason to exsist after you've outgrown them by staying relevant they are themselves a cash sink. A ship worth keeping in your stable.

again in terms of piracy if more people would actually fly their old type 6's pirates would have more targets even when that player could afford 5 condas you might see them in that little shoebox.

so to make that shoebox relevant again there needs to be an outlet for it to be used. Smuggling in a type 6 would be a reason to keep it and to use it. Cheap to lose in the gamble of smuggling, low heat signature, great jump range and a decent cargo capacity. Again remember that in my idea of smuggling the the buy in for these items is extremely expensive. Losing a type 6 full of black market wares would be equivalent to losing a combat python.

with that you breathe new life into the ships like the hauler, the adder, and the type 6 ships previously forgotten while at the same time adding consequence and meaningful cash sinks.

Again relating to the topic at hand piracy, you need to have an ecosystem in place before it becomes a PVP fest not acts of piracy. Which is basically what it is now, the current ecosystem is pirates attack the newbies, the newbies go into solo, the newbies come back as bounty hunters or pirates in clippers, pythons and FDL's.

There needs to be another cycle of trading ships to give credence to piracy. Some ships like the type 7 or 9 need to stay more relevant as well. Smuggling is one thing but that won't really temp anyone into flying a type 7 again. Salvage needs a place in elite especially as it's a space simulator and I think that's the type 7's calling. Looking into and melting down shipwrecks for components, loot, metals, polymers, and scrap. Having a large cargo hold to stay at it long enough to make credits on terms with other professions. Exploration in human controlled space.

the type 9 on the other hand has little incentive to stay in your garage after you have an anaconda. I still own and use one because in very specific situations it can bring in a little more money than my conda. But that shouldn't be the case, it shouldn't be a little better than an anaconda at trading it should be a lot better. The conda is heavily shielded and armored, bristling with guns, has a superior jump range which offsets its lower cargo capacity. The type 9 falls to the wayside because it has zero defensive capabilities, and only makes a marginal profit over the much better anaconda. If you want to see more type 9's in open you need to make it a ship worth using. In this case it's not a ship who's profession is no longer there it's a ship who is incapable of succeeding at its profession enough to justify its use. It wouldn't be that much of a change allow it to equip a class 7 FSD and give it more utility slots to augment its only defensive strategy of survival not speed or firepower but simply shield strength. Then there would be a reason for the bigger pirate ships besides dealing with bounty hunters or other pirates. You would need them to succefully pirate the traders ace in the hole, the invincible type 9 not the solo dwelling piñata we have now.

making piracy more viable and more fun requires a food chain in order to continue. I also agree that NPC traders should behave in the same way that PC's do and actually have wares worth stealing. Again this would take some heat off of players but it would also allow newer players to get into it in ships that don't require millions to effectively accomplish the task.

i too am hoping that the better FSD drives earned through affiliation along with other modules from other powers is not just a pipe dream. They really have a chance to make the game more interesting for longer by doing that. Hopefully though it doesn't stop there maybe even faction boosted versions of ships with slightly better stats like a python with better handling, or a type 9 with less mass and a higher shield value.
 
I disagree with everything about this statement; the core premised it's based on is a farce.

Death penalties in ED are trivial and this is a major reason why taking risks are trivial. Many people would find the game more fund with more risk, and greater penalties for taking those risks and failing.

You are utterly incorrect and may be intransigent; while it may be impossible to convince you otherwise you are entitled to your opinion.

A full cargo hold represents a massive investment of time and game progress. Putting that all on the line is not a trivial risk.

It does occur to me that once you have succeeded and have all the credits you need to swan around in an A rated Python there is no real risk any more. So maybe you are referring to that situation where the game is basically over - and you want more "penalties" / content to fill the void.

Maybe PowerPlay will help with your endgame, but the death penalties do little but cause players to avoid risk and be alienated if unlucky during the basic progression game.
 
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every encounter with the CODE I've had (3 now) has been the best part of my game, and any rp'ing players in general (I got a comms hail in Fujin last night and some dude rp'ed me into doing a local faction mission to be able to buy tea, but stop oppression, it was awesome). I agree with OP in that piracy shouldn't be the core gameplay, but i'd love to see:

- major pirate power with a pirate king... with pirates not having territory or a home planet, but being able to take over stations like other factions. like the fed/empire balances each other, pirate/alliance could balance each other ideologically (both independent coalitions)... maybe the catch is that any station overrun by pirates can only get supplies from pirate npcs/player npcs, reducing the strength of their holds... forcing larger pirate empires to begin their own trading/mining missions to maintain their bases (the piracy just isn't enough) and adding the same variety of gameplay to pirates, only limited to pirate systems. pirate systems would be hard to maintain, instead encouraging piracy to be an underground, spread-out faction. I would imagine that the first step would be to start a black market at a station, which would be done by trading stolen/illegal goods

- pirate specific items... maybe illegal to equip if scanned, but things like a cloaking device, an FSD sapper that requires a LOT of power and reverses a charge, a "mirage" wingman/doppleganger, a weapon that shoots goo onto windshields to blind the player (which can be countered by heat levels which melt it off), emp weapons that disable without damage (maybe not just for pirates), fuel scoop-like siphon that steals fuel from target ships, fake beacon/ping they can activate to lure players in (obviously would also have to add some kind of new signal type like "rare signal"), pirate "traps" like rigging cargo to explode when scooped ........... scoundrel type items

- pirate economy - black market values should be higher based on demand... so if a system is craving food, food sold to the black market would buy at twice the price vs 1.5 when trading to the commodoties market. likewise, if demand is low, the black market would buy at half the price vs 75%.... so it's more like the regular market, only it amplifies the supply/demand... and items "illegal" in an area with low demand they won't buy at all because it's not worth.... but illegal with HIGH demand would maybe be even MORE valuable. Therefore a pirate would need to think a bit like a trader when choosing where to cash goods. Also, why not allow anyone to also BUY from the black market? Only it's marked as stolen from the get go, so can only be sold at another black market... pirate trading could therefore be MORE valuable than normal trading... all of a sudden, normal traders are turning to the black market for better hauls and taking the risks of getting fined for stolen goods. And bounty hunters are acting like pirates, by interdicting pirate traders! Also, perhaps turning in stolen/illegal cargo at the trading port will wipe your fine at the expense of profit if you give the salvage to authorities?


I'm not even at pirate level yet, but just wanted to throw these ideas out there!

Lots of good ideas here, Spatula, Thanks for the input!
Sounds to me like there is one thing everyone here agrees on (Perhaps ONLY one thing), NPC's should carry more valuable cargo, more often.
 
Well, I believe the people who are sitting on piles of cash without anything to spend on are probably just a small minority. Most players are still saving up for, like, an Asp. Do not underestimate this, it has been in every MMO and MMO-ish game so far, whenever the devs collect real statistics about player wealth, it ends up as a bell curve with its peak near the lower end. And the forums always give a skewed picture because most of the active forum posters are also among the most active players, and therefore the biggest wealth. If you make a poll what someone's most expensive ship is, you may cut down the percentages on anything bigger than an Asp by a factor of 10, probably, to get a realistic estimate for the overall playerbase.

Therefore, no, I don't think we need any more money sinks.
Traffic reports kinda prove that expensive ships are more and more common now. There's more Vultures than Vipers, Cobras and Eagles combined at combat CGs.
 
Traffic reports kinda prove that expensive ships are more and more common now. There's more Vultures than Vipers, Cobras and Eagles combined at combat CGs.

They don't prove anything, though. They're not representative of the entire game population. Not everyone wants to do CGs. And certainly less do in the weaker ships. Even more so if they've just started out.

This was the argument used to say the vulture was the most used ship in the game. It's a skewed sample.

I don't agree or disagree about money sinks, just pointing this out.
 
Traffic reports kinda prove that expensive ships are more and more common now. There's more Vultures than Vipers, Cobras and Eagles combined at combat CGs.

Its a shame really. Would like to see smaller ships being flown more often.

Climbs back into his Orca and flies off
 
A full cargo hold represents a massive investment of time and game progress. Putting that all on the line is not a trivial risk.

A full hold on the largest cargo ship of the most expensive commodity than can be purchased in quantity, is about one hour of trade profits in said ship.

It does occur to me that once you have succeeded and have all the credits you need to swan around in an A rated Python there is no real risk any more.

If I wasn't being reckless, the risk before this were trivial. If I was being reckless, the risks are the same.

So maybe you are referring to that situation where the game is basically over - and you want more "penalties" / content to fill the void.

If I had a trillion credits, the game wouldn't be anywhere near "over", and at this rate I'll have that much in about two hundred years.

Maybe PowerPlay will help with your endgame, but the death penalties do little but cause players to avoid risk and be alienated if unlucky during the basic progression game.

I have no "end game" and with death penalties any more trivial than they are now, I'd have little practical reason to avoid them...and I do avoid them. As it is, I avoid them more out of pride than because of any practical consequences, but I don't think the game can rely on pride to force people to behave sensibly.

Getting shot out of the sky should not be trivial. It should be painful. It should be something to avoid like the plague. Attrition should be a thing.

Its a shame really. Would like to see smaller ships being flown more often.

They are still flown more often, just not at combat CGs where they are typically outclassed.
 
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I tried pirating in an Eagle in Eravate last night and wow this was painful.

Adders are the worst. Their cargo hatch is basically invulnerable. I saw one with 4 tons of slaves on board, could not shoot out that stupid hatch from any angle.
Overtook with boost, FA off, turned to face his belly, gimbals away and while I took him to 50%, the hatch remained firmly closed and only dropped to 95%.

Half the targets I interdicted carried biowaste or food cartridges
I pirated a few type 6s that tried to shake the interdiction, that went reasonably well, stole some Marine equipment, Lithium.
pirated a cobra for ancient artefacts


I hardly ever saw any haulers

The biggest issue was the high number of player bounty hunters in the system that would kill anyone with even the tiniest bounty on them, not just talking about me, with a combat rank of Dangerous I don't really mind, however I saw the same guy in his Vulture later interdict a harmless sidewinder with a 200cr bounty. Wannabe murderer, but too scared to go wanted himself.

Was also interdicted by a Python while clean, he tells me I look like a pirate with interdictor and cargo scanner, I say Yes, I am, what you gonna do now? And he left. Why did you interdict in the first place? You got a fine for that.

Another time I interdicted a type 6, a cobra follows the wake, however, just as the Type 6 FSDs out, so he missed the entire encounter. Since the entire time was spent chatting, I decided not to shoot since that would make me wanted again (decision was made before the cobra dropped in) because I didn't wanna lose the chain interdiction again to Police forces interdicting me, so I charged supercruise. No way my three gimballed lasers would even take down the shields of that Type 6 in those 5 seconds anyways.

Still being clean, the Cobra suddenly opens up on me with turreted weapons (Combat rank: Dangerous). All I do is fly circles and spam "murder! Murder!" on chat. When I'm at 19% my FSD finishes charging and he's on chat "uuh did you pirate that t6?"

Conclusion: Eagle piracy is completely impossible to do in the long run. I started out with some profit from the 6 abandoned marine equipment from the first type 6, but then I kept scanning biowaste and food cartridges because newbies simply can't afford better cargo. Going for bigger targets did not work, Trader cobras with weapons outmatch the Eagle hard, since 1 utility doesn't allow for chaff and the high number of gimbal weapons I've faced. Adders as said are impossible to force cargo out of, those never fought back at least.

Type 6s for some reason work. Really did not expect that.
 
A pirate shouting murder repeatedly at someone trying to kill him just after committing an illegal act (interdiction) is an amusing image.

Yes, pvp in an Eagle is not easy. And piracy even less so.
 
I think the best idea to give a buff to pirating would be to have a larger amount of NPC Ships carrying valuable goods ( Gold, Paladium, Platin, ... ) preferably in a small fleet ( Anaconda + 2-3 Vipers or Lakon 7/9 guarded by a couple of vultures ).
This would make it fun to go pirating in a small wing.

Also I'd like the (NPC) Pirates trying to interdict you to be stronger relative to your own ship. Why would a newb with an unshielded Eagle try to pirate a Python for example. If the NPCs could learn to use the boost more often and interdict in wings a couple of Cobra/Viper Pirates would be bad news for your avg. trader. This would:
a) make the game more interesting for traders ( and really right now you can fly with a shieldless type 9 full of Palladium without fearing repercussions )
b) force traders to fly in wings protected by combat Ships or use multi purpose ships for trading if trading valuable commodities ( here I hope you can one day hire PC/NPC protection vi9a Blackboard ).
which would
c) force PC Pirates wanting to Pirate from PC Traders form Wings and therefore increase player communication
and
d) give Traders a reason to play in open ( bc to protect from NPC pirates it pays to band together )
 
A full hold on the largest cargo ship of the most expensive commodity than can be purchased in quantity, is about one hour of trade profits in said ship.

This is where you are missing the point because you obviously have the funds to survive a ship destruction. This is not the case during normal player progression from Sidewinder, and not as a trader coming up when every cargo hold represents your entire progression.

Congratulations on having completed the grindathon, leaving behind the riff-raff. I imagine you feel like you have earned some right to respect through your endless hours of toil. Enjoy your endgame, just try not to gank noobs when you get bored, the game mechanics do a good enough job of alienating them without you adding to the problem.
 
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This is where you are missing the point because you obviously have the funds to survive a ship destruction. This is not the case during normal player progression from Sidewinder, and not as a trader coming up when every cargo hold represents your entire progression.

That's the thing though, if you're trying to progress as a trader and you're counting profits why do some many people think that a full rebuy and loss of cargo is preferable to dropping a few tons for a pirate?

I personally traded in open up to an anaconda in every trade ship and I never died or suffered damage once, the worst I had was losing my shields. If you stop you won't get shot, if you stop and get shot you were probably going to die anyway due to random psycho.

Traders need to get out of the mind set that pirates are trying to kill them, we aren't. It's actually disheartening to take a trade ship down to 10% hull and no drives to find it was completely empty or had 10t of grain.

A lot of this had to do with the AI imo. I killed a T7 trader last night who tried to run. I interdicted him a second time and he stopped and I scanned him finding mineral extractors. I told him not to drop anything (low worth) and we then sat in the instance for 40 minutes having a chat. He told me he had come from solo and was used to running from all AI without having a scratch. He said he ignored my threats and tried to run because he had assumed AI ships were equivalent to pc ships and was used to being tickled by a shieldless eagle with pulse lasers.

Obviously the AI issue isn't a case of "increase ai to make them punishing" it ties in with the whole high/low security space and a whole other bunch of variables. It does go to show the differences between the modes in some cases though.
 
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This is where you are missing the point because you obviously have the funds to survive a ship destruction. This is not the case during normal player progression from Sidewinder, and not as a trader coming up when every cargo hold represents your entire progression.

Congratulations on having completed the grindathon, leaving behind the riff-raff. I imagine you feel like you have earned some right to respect through your endless hours of toil. Enjoy your endgame, just try not to gank noobs when you get bored, the game mechanics do a good enough job of alienating them without you adding to the problem.

If you do it right, you should rarely be at risk of losing everything at any stage of trading.

And trading is as linear as it gets in terms of loss against recovery times. The only variable is round trip time. Most routes should be around 10-15 minutes tops. The rest (cost of cargo, profit margin and volume of cargo) all scale with mathematical relativity from sidewinder to anaconda.

What you stand to lose (cost of cargo) will take the same time to recover (profit margin multiplied by volume of cargo) no matter what ship you use.

The only time you're at risk is when you upgrade to a bigger ship. If you rush and do it too early, of course you're going to risk losing everything. But those who are patient have little to fear, unless they trade in Lave (which would be pointless anyway).

Generally speaking, you should be able to recover loss of a full cargo hold within an hour or two. Obviously, this depends on your willingness to find good profits that relate well to the cost of the commodity. Someone trading in palladium for a 100cr/ton profit would take ages to recover from loss.

But no one does that. Generally speaking, profit margins scale with the cost of the commodity, with a fairly predictable margin of error.

I've traded from the hauler to the anaconda. There wasn't any stage where the loss of my ship would have resulted in more than an hour or two recovery. It was the same in the t6 and the anaconda.

And that was me trading in very expensive commodities. As a new player, I had to trade in lower cost commodities. Losses would be even quicker to recover.
 
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That's the thing though, if you're trying to progress as a trader and you're counting profits why do some many people think that a full rebuy and loss of cargo is preferable to dropping a few tons for a pirate?

The basic interaction is "Give me stuff or ill destroy you" predicated on the fact that losing all your cargo through destruction is a worse outcome then losing just some. Its a morally bankrupt game mechanic, a framework for terrorist style victimization.


Generally speaking, you should be able to recover loss of a full cargo hold within an hour or two.

This is nonsense until you have enough credits to cover multiple cargo holds full of cargo, which is never while you are progressing and have no money left to buy cargo. It does not take and hour or two to recover. As you progress through ships you need you upgrade equipment always spending your profit and never having enough credits.

If the game was designed so that getting from A to B was challenging, and profits scaled with the level of challenge (slim margins in a corporate state vs big ones in an anarchy). Cargo was split between spilled in space and returned to you on ship destruction. That would be a more engaging game.

It's not the way it is, instead the piracy implementation ingame is adversarial instead of competitive. It's based on one player preying on others as their victims, instead of sporting competition between players.

If you want to improve piracy as a profession implement cargo insurance in some fashion.... blowing up ships and scooping their cargo is the goto fun activity, how did FD miss that?
 
I'm not going to carry on arguing. I know I'm right because I've done it. Perhaps your experience is different (you must die a lot as a trader to need "multiple cargo holds full" of equity to trade.).

What I will say is this is a thread about piracy and I agree it needs to get better. But I've said that repeatedly since beta.

I wonder if drones will make it more efficient.
 
That's the thing though, if you're trying to progress as a trader and you're counting profits why do some many people think that a full rebuy and loss of cargo is preferable to dropping a few tons for a pirate?

I understand exactly what you're saying, and it makes completely logical sense. Thing is though, being a game, people will always opt for rolling the dice. Even if the outcome feels like a kick in the squirrel food. It's human nature. You're trying to reconcile the trader's attitude of "Pirating is so unfair!!11!" alongside the exact same trader who will boost out of the mail slot (seriously - if we all were piloting these behemoths in real life, I doubt any of us would exceed 20 m/s in and out of the stations).

Can't be done because humans don't maintain logical consistency from one moment to the next.

Sorry. Not sure I have an answer to the inherent inconsistency in player's attitudes like this. Not sure it's even answerable.
 
I've said before in this thread that I agree pirating AND smuggling both need to be refined and improved. One of the ways was advanced modules and things for pirates to use to help with the...pirating. I also wanted to state that the traders and BH's also need similar modules and things to help defend as well. It will give variation and customization options allowing for unique game-play and matchups. True cargo insurance could go a long way to help with that.

Honestly, I think the next major update needs to be an "Outfitting" content update. It needs to be on the same scale as this PowerPlay update. The "Outfitting" update should include new options for many more modules and variations of each module, including both weapons and internals. If they can focus on this (along with some improvements to the mechanics of smuggling/pirating) would that make everyone happy?
 
The basic interaction is "Give me stuff or ill destroy you" predicated on the fact that losing all your cargo through destruction is a worse outcome then losing just some. Its a morally bankrupt game mechanic, a framework for terrorist style victimization.

It's still inherrantly better than the npc pirates who either scan or just open fire, won't stop shooting until you've dropped 10x more than they can carry and then don't scoop afterwards if you do drop.

Can't be done because humans don't maintain logical consistency from one moment to the next.

That's the biggest problem and players don't practice what they preach. When I was trading I knew that 20t of cargo was better than my entire rebuy and cargo but then I was a numbers guy and more of a rper.

I also wanted to state that the traders and BH's also need similar modules and things to help defend as well

The problem is that traders have a ton of things at their disposal, shield cells, boosters, turrets etc. Whilst they might not be the best they would work if it wasn't for the massive downside and that's the jump range and the effectiveness of said counter measures.

I know from experience that even if I did max out a T9 with boosters and cells I wouldn't be able to jump anywhere due to weight. The trading ships need a pass on fsd distances to encourage traders to use counter measures. I expect this would put us back to square one though as traders would still min/max on jump range and profits although it would give less excuses to dying.

The other problem is things like mines and missiles which are pretty much designed for traders (torpedoes for example) were nerfed against shields making them useless.

Regarding bounty hunters there are no tools except the wake scanner which is useless due to high wakes. You can't use them in supercruise so you can't effectively follow a player. Regarding piracy tools, limpets are awful and noone uses them. Shoot out a ship's drives (npc or player) and then attempt to attach a limpet, extra points if your victim has a point defense. There's no encouragement from the game mechanics to use them.

There's no easy solution and it's a combination of game mechanics that bring the problems for traders, bounty hunters and pirates.
 
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