Trader ships that can survive Open

[Rankaze]

The Clipper in the OP is described as having only 410 speed. That is not fast enough. A combat Viper can make 410, but you might get away since he cannot mass lock. You won't be so lucky against a Fer-de-Lance, however, who can mass lock you (and will gun you down before your FSD cools anyhow) and at 408 m/s is not significantly slower. You're going to have to build it faster than that.

For that matter a combat load Vulture can make speeds in the 390's.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

My problem is: If a trader ship is interdicted by a player out there to kill, the trader ship will be dead.
The T-C ships will survive. Speed is THE best defense.

First of all, thx to the OP for this post: I always enjoy reading any post about "real" (involving cmdrs) experience!

While trading ships have all their chance to survive a real pirate encounter by simply complying and abandon some cargo, I entirely agree with the OP that they have absolutely no chance against any cmdr aiming at shooting them down.

Since Diso (which was the first trading community goal I did online, and the first time I encountered so many wings of psychos shooting straight at you or getting closer to you while you are trying to communicate, then open fire at point blank) I now only trade in:
- a silent running (cannot be targeted at range!) shieldless/mirrored bulkhead Cobra. Nobody has ever managed to do more than 20% of hull damage, and I enjoy provocating them. Perfect for rare trade runs as well (Diso ma Corn!).
- or a military grade bulkhead Federal Dropship (140T cargo) armed to the teeth with shield boosters+cells. The guns/shield/armor allow me to fight back while FSD cools down. With a mass lock factor of 20, only FdL and Anacondas can disrupt my FSD, and I can still pop shield cells and chaff (I have even a button mapped to trigger a macro popping them continuously) if I need to jump to the next system (takes 15s, no mass lock).

However even with the latter, I did get shot down once by a wing of 4 cmdrs who played the beam/railgun/missile music festival before sending a "Die Federal scum!" (I liked to see a bit of roleplay for once, though I am actually absolutely not Federation aligned...I hope Powerplay will give them a real purpose and stop this nonsense).

=> HOWEVER! The problem is that rebuy cost of such a ship is above 3 millions, while a T6 equipped with cargo racks only and D rank modules (except FSD) is way less. During CGs where only the amount of tons count (such as shipping at least 1500T of cheap commodities to be among the top 40% and get 8 millions bonus equivalent to an additional 5000+cr/T), I should rather fly the cheapest T6 (112T) with rebuy cost of less than 100k.
But for some reason I actually like to fight back and escape rather than accepting my fate, claim the cheap insurance cost and go straight for another run.

 

[Midian27]

This means you never met a homicidal maniac like myself who shoot first and keep on shooting until you are scrap. I'm fed up with the politically correct Elite: Carebear.

NPC interdiction is out of scope. NPCs don't pose any threat, no matter what you fly.

The biggest issue with the T9 is that 2xx shield strength is nothing. A Viper can have that much. Fixed size 3 beams do 30 dmg/sec. Half if 4 pips at shield. A more serious ship can pop a T9 in less than 10 secs. Would the FSD charge in that time?

Doesn't matter how well your cobra is kitted, you would pose no threat to my trade-a-conda.

 

[Snakebite]

I'm very unhappy with the current trade ship lineup. They are slow and defenseless.
These ships can actually survive engagements in Open. No need to play in the minor league of Solo or Private.

The fact that the thread title does not read :Trade ships that can survive a run through an anarchy system speaks volumes for the serious gameplay flaws with Elite Dangerous.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

survive a run through an anarchy system

Well, real pirate cmdrs don't care much about getting a bounty or seeing the harmless local security jumping in (except if they were in the process of scooping the cargo, hopefully getting easier in 1.3 soon).
A system used as a selling point during a CG is far more dangerous than any regular anarchy system.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

you would pose no threat to my trade-a-conda

And this is exactly the point of the OP I believe...

 

[TheLoneTrucker]

And this is exactly the point of the OP I believe...

Maybe? But the OP didn't need to list anything about the conda. You have to be an incompetent jackwagon to die to a lone cobra while in a conda. And there aren't too many incompetent jackwagons flying condas.

Plus the loadout for the conda he showed was silly. Rigging your ship to look like a BH only provokes actual pirates to wing up and kill you.

 

[fademist]

The fact that the thread title does not read :Trade ships that can survive a run through an anarchy system speaks volumes for the serious gameplay flaws with Elite Dangerous.

why trade ships cant survive that without gameplay flaws? what u think anarchy systems is the no-mans land for trade ships? E; D isnt the other space game u know

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

And there aren't too many incompetent jackwagons flying condas

Well, I have already met a dude flying a Conda...mostly harmless. He was a pure trader and equipped cargo scanner and KWS as a strategy for being seen as a pirate or scaring pirates.
I, personally, did not expect that and thought only NPC would fly Anacondas that way

 

[Kid Firestorm]

The OP does bring up a good point and one I was going to make a thread about. Why even arm the trade ships if they sand no chance against anything bigger that a sidey? I think the trade ships are too weak. They're just sheep in a field full of foxes. I think more traders would play in open if they had better defense. Not necessarily strong weapons or faster ships but better weapon placement and stronger shields.

Turreted weapon would work if they where place along the top and bottom of the ships. The type 6 and 9 both have the worse weapon placements for their design. Unless as ship attacks those ships straight on the weapons are pointless. And honestly, they're going to be robbed, everyone knows it. Why not shield them better. Imo trade ships should have shielding higher that most combat ship but they are the weakest. They aren't flying those things among sidewinders only, they got pythons and vultures to deal with mostly.

 

[CMDR Holycow]

If you run top shelf shields, and a few SCBs, any trader T6 and above can survive most interdictions.

But, usually.... ALL traders can survive a typical pirate interdiction if they submit, pull throttle, and jetison the requested cargo. 9 times out of 10 you will get away without a scratch.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

trade ships are too weak. They're just sheep in a field full of foxes.

Yes they are. And they are intended by design to survive only by dropping cargo, if facing real pirates. Maybe ED did not expect that there would be actually more psychos than real traders...PowerPlay + crime update may change that hopefully.

Now pure trading ships are cheaper than multirole ships with similar cargo capacity, and defense (shields, big gun, power plants, distros...) comes at a cost. So one more time (told this in my previous LONG message above), to me it's about cheaper rebuy cost VS better chance to survive.

My strategy:
- if the cargo is the expensive one, trade in a tank, get ready to survive/escape
- if the cargo is of lesser value, pure trade ship and fingers crossed to meet a real pirate
- if you have little cargo, use a fast stealth ship

I find this pretty balanced and challenging, like in real life = fun!

 

[CMDR Holycow]

Yes they are.

No, they aren't. They are only too weak when you choose to run class 3 shields, with no boosters, and no SCBs. Run a fully defended trader ship and you will probably be OK for the majority of your interdictions. But traders don't... they run the lowest class shields they can equip, with zero boosters and zero SCBs... no hull re-enforcements, and then wonder why their ships are paper targets.

If you want to have the very maximum profit from running the lightest most defenseless ship you can equip, that's great.. but then don't complain when you get shot out of the sky when you ran from that pirate. Instead, try running fewer cargo holds with better defenses. Pick your loadout based on your own preconceived odds, and see what you get.

This isn't unique to traders. If a fighting ship shows up to a battle with no shields... he's going to lose too. The problem you have as a trader, is that even though you aren't a combat ship.. you WILL see combat whether you want to or not. But you don't need to fight, you only need to escape. So while you can neglect any and all weapons, neglecting any and all defenses will only put you at the insurance screen more often.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

They are only too weak when you choose to run class 3 shields, with no boosters, and no SCBs.

Well, a T6 with the best shield and shield boosters is 244.80 MJ and you lose 32T cargo. For T7 this is 307.20 MJ and you lose 64T cargo.
This + shield cells will make you last for a little while and you may be able to jump to the next system or be back to SC if your FSD is not disrupted due to mass lock factor of your opponent(s). But where you might fail, in front of a decent commander or even worse, a wing of decent commanders, is that flying away in a straight line is not going to work. They will have your shield depleted, then drive shot or hull taken down.
Using a multipurpose ship will give you an advantage to fight back, increasing your chance to survive...but also increasing your rebuy cost.
Of course you may also meet less experienced opponents and be able to fly away.

neglecting any and all defenses will only put you at the insurance screen more often

I agree with that BTW of course.
I think I will actually give a try to the Wolf 406 CG in a cheap shieldless T6 full of 112T of alluminium and accept to claim less than 100k insurance claim/cargo loss in case I fail to escape the interdiction.
Or, if there are too many psychos and cannot even make it to the station, be back in my military freighter and get an adrenaline rush at the idea to risk a 3 millions insurance claim

 

[CMDR Holycow]

Well, a T6 with the best shield and shield boosters is 244.80 MJ and you lose 32T cargo. For T7 this is 307.20 MJ and you lose 64T cargo.
This + shield cells will make you last for a little while and you may be able to jump to the next system or be back to SC if your FSD is not disrupted due to mass lock factor of your opponent(s). But where you might fail, in front of a decent commander or even worse, a wing of decent commanders, is that flying away in a straight line is not going to work. They will have your shield depleted, then drive shot or hull taken down.
Using a multipurpose ship will give you an advantage to fight back, increasing your chance to survive...but also increasing your rebuy cost.
Of course you may also meet less experienced opponents and be able to fly away.

You are correct...You have to sacrifice your cargo hauling ability for defense. That is the EXACT point of my previous post. If you aren't willing to do it, then you're just pushing it, and it's only a matter of time before somebody gets you. Don't complain. If your goal is to always survive, you need to create a loadout that gives you the best chance of escaping, which will always sacrifice cargo hold.

Even so, it's not actually relevant to trading specifically. If ANY single ship is interdicted by a wing of players of at least equal skill... you're going to bite the big one. If you don't want to die at all to any number of commanders, in ANY ship, be it fighter or trader, you need to be in a ship that has the speed to always get away from the fighters. Trade in a cobra, or a clipper. If you don't like the limited speed, then you take your chances with a larger hold, but a slower ship with fewer defenses. This is how it is SUPPOSED to be. I'm tired of traders thinking that they should have absolute EZ mode to trade with MAX cargo, unmolested, with zero risk to their ships.

That's not how this game works.

 

[Kid Firestorm]

Yes they are. And they are intended by design to survive only by dropping cargo, if facing real pirates. Maybe ED did not expect that there would be actually more psychos than real traders...PowerPlay + crime update may change that hopefully.

Now pure trading ships are cheaper than multirole ships with similar cargo capacity, and defense (shields, big gun, power plants, distros...) comes at a cost. So one more time (told this in my previous LONG message above), to me it's about cheaper rebuy cost VS better chance to survive.

My strategy:
- if the cargo is the expensive one, trade in a tank, get ready to survive/escape
- if the cargo is of lesser value, pure trade ship and fingers crossed to meet a real pirate
- if you have little cargo, use a fast stealth ship

I find this pretty balanced and challenging, like in real life = fun!

But my point is most situations traders have two options, give up cargo and hope they aren't killed anyway or run and hope you're not killed before your FSD is charged. The real life aspect doesn't apply here because in real life a cargo ship isn't attacked by a warship. It's attacked by a group of guys on a dingy that need to board it. My idea puts more than hope in a trader's hands.

The mindset right now is do what I say or die. Better shields and better weapon placement gives traders a chance to maybe say, no I'm keeping my stuff.

 

[Darth Ender]

boost boost fsd.

Traders dont need weapons, they dont even need shields except to protect against hitting the sides of a station when docking or npcs.

 

[Vasious]

When flying a Type 7, I found the key was don't get interdicted in the first place, evade that stage and your speed in real space doesn't matter.

Rep for thinking outside the box

 

[Mister5150]

No, they aren't. They are only too weak when you choose to run class 3 shields, with no boosters, and no SCBs. Run a fully defended trader ship and you will probably be OK for the majority of your interdictions. But traders don't... they run the lowest class shields they can equip, with zero boosters and zero SCBs... no hull re-enforcements, and then wonder why their ships are paper targets.

If you want to have the very maximum profit from running the lightest most defenseless ship you can equip, that's great.. but then don't complain when you get shot out of the sky when you ran from that pirate. Instead, try running fewer cargo holds with better defenses. Pick your loadout based on your own preconceived odds, and see what you get.

This isn't unique to traders. If a fighting ship shows up to a battle with no shields... he's going to lose too. The problem you have as a trader, is that even though you aren't a combat ship.. you WILL see combat whether you want to or not. But you don't need to fight, you only need to escape. So while you can neglect any and all weapons, neglecting any and all defenses will only put you at the insurance screen more often.

I totally agree when I was trading i armed my trade ship for combat, sacrificing a bit of cargo room for upgraded bulkheads and what ever else I needed, I've been interdicted many times by CMDR'S and I've always escaped with all my cargo, this defenseless trader rhetoric is .

 

[fergal]

This means you never met a homicidal maniac like myself who shoot first and keep on shooting until you are scrap. I'm fed up with the politically correct Elite: Carebear.

I love that you call the players you are attacking in ships that (and you agree with this) have no chance of survival, Carebears.