Credit Sink Discussion

[Aussiedroid]

Further I have been progressing my CMDR in ED, the more I have been feeling the game is relatively easy. When starting out you have the challenge of learning the mechanics, getting good at flying and all that sort of thing, you make a lot of mistakes that cost you credits but you learn and improve. At a point I think most players would find that credits are coming in but rarely going out once you get a reasonable ship & experience under your belt. The challenge lessens. For those that have lots of credits, ships etc I think it is hard to loose those without doing it deliberately, and not necessarily by the existing game design/credit sinks.

Other than purchasing ships or modules, I believe the current credit sinks (& correct me if I have missed anything guys) are:

- Repair / Refuel / Ammo resupply
- Insurance on ship destruction
- Loss of cargo (Pirates, Ship destruction etc)
- Fines / Bounties payments
- Rep gain missions (charity missions)
- ...

Experienced players can avoid many of these much of the time. That can primarily leave the ongoing repair/ammo costs as the main credit sink, which in its current iteration is relatively cheap. Obviously, this will depend on how you choose to play the game etc but I am generalising a fair bit here.


My question to the community is, do you think these credit sinks are sufficient & balanced cost wise?

Would you like to see other ways to spend/invest/sink those credits back into the game?


What are your suggestions to expand or improve this in ED?

Feel free to share your opinions below.



Some suggestions from the Thread (and a couple of my own):

- Gambling in stations, betting on races
- Insurance for bounties/data/cargo etc
- Hiring NPCs
- Ship Taxi Service for moving ships
- Bigger risk vs reward
- Bribary of officials
- Donate/Fund/Contribute financially to a Powerplay faction
- Charity Community Goals
- HUD Colour Crystal Modifications or other cosmetic ship alterations
- Pay to access a full featured Black Market for a period at a given station
- Naming Stars/Planets
- ...

 

[Troster]

You've chosen to disregard the major expenditure, which is the cost of buying and upgrading the ships themselves. This cost dwarfs anything else.

 

[Bortas]

My question to the community is, do you think these credit sinks are sufficient & balanced cost wise?

There's no inter-player ecnomy in E. All prices are fixed or fluctuating within fixed boundaries set by the devs, thus cash-sinks are unnecessary because inflation cannot happen, no matter how many credits individual players accumulate in their accounts.

 

[Aussiedroid]

You've chosen to disregard the major expenditure, which is the cost of buying and upgrading the ships themselves. This cost dwarfs anything else.

Oh not disregarded, but I think there is a point where those costs become irrelevant. Certainly not for those that have not played as much, and still progressing in that regards but many players would already have their ideal ship, upgraded and still many credits in the bank.

The other ongoing costs/sinks I feel are relatively minor compared to the profits you can gain.

 

[Connatic]

There's no inter-player ecnomy in E. All prices are fixed or fluctuating within fixed boundaries set by the devs, thus cash-sinks are unnecessary because inflation cannot happen, no matter how many credits individual players accumulate in their accounts.

I think it's more about, once you find a ship you like, there is nothing to do with you money besides running costs. Credits are the only form of progression in this game, and not much to spend it on.

I know we will never see play driven crafting and economy, but we still need more to do with our cash. I mean power play and better missions will help vary the progression, but cash needs some more uses.

 

[Tenshi]

The game all has a long way to go to get to the vision that David Braben had in mind. There is still the player run outposts that are yet to be out in the game, along with planet landings and possibly a FPS side to the game.

On another note have you looked at how much it would cost to fully upgrade a anaconda?

 

[edgar]

I think the repair and refuel costs are much too low. Perhaps they were too high before the adjustment, but now they just feel trivial.

I'm not sure about credit sinks as I've seen others argue that they are not needed, but I personally feel it's too easy to accumulate credits once you're out of the smaller ships.

I get that the bigger ships like freighters should provide you with more easier credits faster, but I got a lot of enjoyment during my "early game" out of managing my scarce credit balance. It doesn't feel like there's anything which scales up that feeling of achievement from managing scarcity later on.

 

[SirAdelaide]

I prefer heat sinks over credit sinks.

But more seriously, you only need to worry about credit sinks if grinding credit is the game purpose. For some people it is, sure. But if you are aiming for elite status or exploring, credits have no real meaning, so no need for sinks. Once you have more money than you need, you can measure progress against other more interesting metrics.

 

[Troa Barton]

This is a tricky subject because arbitrary credit sinks aren't fun and are mostly annoying.
but they are needed, I am one of the players you are describing. I own a lot of ships, anaconda, type 9, clipper, vulture, Python, type 6, asp, FDL currently, and will have the two new ships and am looking at an orca next. I'm at somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 million in assets.

currently the biggest credit sink is ship destruction, you can pay for repairs, fuel, bounties, and fines for weeks and one death will add up to more credits lost than anything else.
im not convinced that this is right either, even having that much money I don't want to lose 25 million on a rebuy. Personally I think that's a bit much that's a grind to replace that I don't particularly want to do again.

the trick is to make credit sinks make sense and if possible fun at the same time.

bounties are an example of a credit sink that makes sense. You kill someone you get a bounty it costs money to go away. Right now aside from the challenge there's no reason to go after a player with a bounty under 3 mill. You would make more at a res site, let alone trading. Taking on big game player bounties should be the late tier bounty hunting. That should be the end game for a die hard bouty hunter the linear income equivilent to trading in a type 9 or anaconda.
And what's the incentive to go after a player in an expensive ship? Why risk 10-25 mill on a 3 mill bounty?
The problem is that it takes forever to rack up a bounty worth over 3 mill without getting killed. With murder adding a paltry 5K per instance that takes some time. On top of it all you're capped at 1 mill per faction, and it again if that's your goal then turning into a serial killer is the only way to accomplish it which isn't really good game design imo.
murder bounties need to be greatly increased as do all other fines and bounties. Murder should be noticeable to even someone like me. Again this isn't going to do anything if you can just clear them so the crime update is something I am looking forward to.
if bounties become worthwhile and hard to get rid of while lowering the cost of a rebuy then that would encourage players to bounty hunt other players. So this credit sink is an example of being an understandable expense that encourages gameplay interaction between players. Something this game needs.

Another credit sink that would make sense and my personal favorite. Smuggling.

Smuggling should be the biggest risk vs reward gamble in the game.
Yeah I'm rich in the game but I didn't get here making bad decisions or taking risks, nor does it mean that I don't want the potential to earn more. But if I am to lose credits I want to have a fun time losing them.
in my perfect world smuggling would be very expensive to get into, it wouldn't and shouldn't be an easy or advisable thing for a new player to get into.
smuggling in my mind would function a lot like rare trading in that only stations that have a black market would be points of sale and purchase. You would actually have to smuggle the goods through several jurisdictions and travel 160 LYs to make the sale. Which would open you up for getting scanned, pirated, or hunted down.
the biggest differences would be:
all of the items are illegal anywhere but in anarchy systems.
there is no limit to how much you can buy.
the goods are extremely expensive like 50,000K per ton, expensive even for a type 6 to run.
the profit would be better than trading you could expect around 8-10k per ton minimum so it's worth it if you make it. Which sounds like too much but when you factor the time to travel and all the running and gunning you will need to do to make it worthwhile it makes sense. Again there needs to me an incentive to gamble that kind of cash.

But that would be the big question. If you make it.
Every pirate in the galaxy would want to catch you. That's a good way to make piracy pay, and you would be a juicy target.
if you get scanned you get repremanded harshly. Scanned once and your cargo is tagged as worthless anywhere. On top of that if you get scanned and reported you get a bounty on you head. This way even traders can get a bounty and bounty hunters now have many more targets to go after.

to top it off in order to purchase black market items you have to be in open, your cargos manifest is bound to open so you cannot switch modes while you have cargo that was purchased in open in your hold even if you weren't the one to buy it.
in solo you can still find this cargo in rare npc ships and signal sources and will be able to sell it at a black market but you will not be able to purchase them from the black market unless you're willing to accept the risk of doing it in open.

man I need to stop writing novels on here.. But there's my take on the issue make credit sinks fun and acceptable that promote player interaction.

 

[Aussiedroid]

On another note have you looked at how much it would cost to fully upgrade a anaconda?

Certainly is a big big purchase and one many work towards, but for myself the Conda hasn't held much interest. Personally, I enjoy flying the smaller to med ships which I have most of them now and was looking forward in my thoughts on the subject about what I could possibly use my credits towards. That got me thinking that the credits were coming too easily and nothing really to take them away in terms of current game mechanics.

I think the repair and refuel costs are much too low. Perhaps they were too high before the adjustment, but now they just feel trivial.

I'm not sure about credit sinks as I've seen others argue that they are not needed, but I personally feel it's too easy to accumulate credits once you're out of the smaller ships.

I get that the bigger ships like freighters should provide you with more easier credits faster, but I got a lot of enjoyment during my "early game" out of managing my scarce credit balance. It doesn't feel like there's anything which scales up that feeling of achievement from managing scarcity later on.

I feel the same, the earlier times playing prior to the repair/refuel adjustments felt challenging, risky, it kept me on my toes - certainly was more enjoyable but I can't come to wipe my char (feels like I would be putting my pet down or something lol). Now I could easily pop my ship 10x over and still be able to come back. I'm not rich at all mind you since i haven't really grinded any trading etc or CZs, but still feel I have more than I need most times I log in. Those earlier costs might have been a bit excessive but I honestly think it was better (despite the fact it would have likely turned many players off).

I like the idea of scaling difficulty, although it seems to be the opposite in current design. You get better rep, more credits and in turn you get more discounts and benefits you don't really need, coupled with your own increased knowledge of the game and now to make good profit if you wanted to, it all starts feeling like a walk in the park, not a run through a dangerous field.

I prefer heat sinks over credit sinks.

But more seriously, you only need to worry about credit sinks if grinding credit is the game purpose. For some people it is, sure. But if you are aiming for elite status or exploring, credits have no real meaning, so no need for sinks. Once you have more money than you need, you can measure progress against other more interesting metrics.

LOL

I agree, but even though I haven't grinded for the credits I still feel there is not much to invest with it (other than ships) or to tax you in some way to keep the challenge there. I am currently doing the same, getting my reps & ranks up, so credits is certainly not the focus, but there will also be a point when I have achieved this and will be looking for the next challenge. I think all these in-game activities could be enhanced by having some other mechanics working against you to add to the difficulty.

This is a tricky subject because arbitrary credit sinks aren't fun and are mostly annoying.
but they are needed, I am one of the players you are describing. I own a lot of ships, anaconda, type 9, clipper, vulture, Python, type 6, asp, FDL currently, and will have the two new ships and am looking at an orca next. I'm at somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 million in assets.

currently the biggest credit sink is ship destruction, you can pay for repairs, fuel, bounties, and fines for weeks and one death will add up to more credits lost than anything else.
im not convinced that this is right either, even having that much money I don't want to lose 25 million on a rebuy. Personally I think that's a bit much that's a grind to replace that I don't particularly want to do again.

the trick is to make credit sinks make sense and if possible fun at the same time.

Thanks for your input! They would totally have to make sense, be based on cause and effect just as the current sinks are - they should be fair. I don't really like the term sinks, but it best describes it I think, but to put it another way, things to use credits for/against in the game.

Perhaps my concern is really coming out of a decreasing challenge I feel playing these days. I am a good 500hrs into the game, seen and tried most things, and unlike my earlier days where I would swing back and forth from profits to losses, now I can't seem to loose much at all.

Thanks all!

 

[Midian Cabal]

I prefer heat sinks over credit sinks.

But more seriously, you only need to worry about credit sinks if grinding credit is the game purpose. For some people it is, sure. But if you are aiming for elite status or exploring, credits have no real meaning, so no need for sinks. Once you have more money than you need, you can measure progress against other more interesting metrics.

This. Money sinks probably make much more sense in games with monthly subscription in order to keep players motivated to grind and thus p(l)ay. In E D grind is our own choice and not a necessity.

 

[Aussiedroid]

This. Money sinks probably make much more sense in games with monthly subscription in order to keep players motivated to grind and thus p(l)ay. In E D grind is our own choice and not a necessity.

I would disagree myself, I haven't been grinding at all but still feel I am getting close to that point where it all starts to become pointless as the credits come regardless of what I seem to choose to do in the game.

 

[Bokugo]

Gambling in stations, betting on races, insurance for bounties/data/cargo etc. I wouldn't mind these

 

[stumagoo]

its not that credit sinks are too small its more that its too easy to make cash, earlier in the games development the only way to get rich was to grind for hours as a trader but all the non trader orientated players did not feel that was fair so now anyone in a half kitted ship can fly out to a res point and make millions in a lot less time, effort and money/ship progression than it took to get the same amount as a trader used to, since this has happened I have pretty much given up on the game. its not that I was a die hard trader but I felt that every role was not all about making credits before and now they are. I still play on and off but its too easy to make credits, sneeze at a ship and I get cash.

 

[CMDR Brock Samson]

If anything, we have excessive money sink.Modules costs for big ships are ridicolous.90 mil for a fuel scoop?Get out.

 

[NullAndVoid]

Version 1.0 fuel costs were ridiculous, the most profitable thing you could do in many ships was to fit a fuel scoop and avoid them entirely. 1.2 version costs are a very good thing and reflects the plentiful supply, now you have a choice to using fuel scoops.

Version 1.0 hull costs were ridiculous on ships larger than a viper, interdictions/combat without shields was pointless given the costs. 1.2 version you now have ship diversity and fighting without a shield isn't an instant insurance job.

Insurance cost on larger ships is still couple hours worth of play, there's your money sink. So no I don't agree with OP.

 

[Troa Barton]

If anything, we have excessive money sink.Modules costs for big ships are ridicolous.90 mil for a fuel scoop?Get out.

Lol yeah the costs of some the upgrades are just off the chart, but technically you don't lose anything in purchasing one. If you sell it you suddenly have millions again.. I am against them imposing a restocking fee due to the lack of information in the outfitting section. A lot of the modules have quirks that aren't listed and you can only find out what they do by trying it.

 

[Whiterose]

Love the idea of gambling and bribing officials. This would be ideal when we can walk around stations. Pop into station security and pay a bung, then into a casino.

 

[Anthony Jones]

If anything, we have excessive money sink.Modules costs for big ships are ridicolous.90 mil for a fuel scoop?Get out.

If you don't fancy spending 90million on an A7 fuel scoop you will probably not be fitting a A8 fuel scoop to your type 9

250million

 

[CMDR DoubleSkulls]

It depends on what you want from the game. As a "simulator" the profit margins available on trading and bounty hunting are unrealistically high. In a real life environment if you spent say £1m on capital investment, getting a £100k profit per annum would be seen as a good return (10% per annum). In the game I've made something like a 1000 fold return in a few weeks - even once you've taken out the costs for insurance, fuel etc. Reducing returns (reduce margins on trading, increasing risk on bounty hunting etc.) may make it more realistic. However I don't think many players want that sort of simulator, we want to be able to progress through the game (whatever the direction) relatively quickly so although you have to "work" to get from a sidewinder to your desired ship(s), you can achieve that within a few weeks or months of game play if you want.