Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[Aimeryan]

@ Aimeryan

At no point does your quote of devs say anything about attacking other players. If fact I suspect that the two opposing missions will be in different systems, seperated by quite a distance. Just because it says piracy and looting do not assume that it means PvP, as it has also been stated that PP is for all modes.

This is my point though, is there meant to be a PvP element to it? I am not saying, as a fact, that there is; I am suggesting that the Dev quote has a good degree of possibility that PvP is meant to be involved, but I don't know if indeed that is the case. This is what I want to clear up, with the Devs; is the event mentioned (traders vs. pirates) meant to have PvP involved? Because at the moment there is absolutely no reason other than sadomasochism that the traders would do it in Open instead of Solo/Group.

In other words, if x is desired, then x needs to be catered for (without affecting y). If x is not desired, then so be it.

 

[SteveLaw]

Is this meant to be a PvE task or not?

We don't know, but I'm pretty sure that the actual objective will only count actions against NPCs just as every other mission or goal currently does. In the example you quote the Power is sending traders. The Power is an NPC faction. Imagine the situation where the Power has no player followers, but it's opposing Power does. Do you think that it will still be possible to oppose the faction if it has no followers? How can you pirate traders that don't exist? You can't, so of course they will exist as NPCs. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

The task is against NPCs so it is exactly the same in Open as it is in Solo. The only difference between the modes is the difference for which you choose that mode. You choose Open to have player interaction, you choose Solo not to. If you choose Open then you accept the chance of another player attacking you, and hindering your Power task. If you don't agree with that then do it in Solo.

 

[Aimeryan]

We don't know, but I'm pretty sure that the actual objective will only count actions against NPCs just as every other mission or goal currently does. In the example you quote the Power is sending traders. The Power is an NPC faction. Imagine the situation where the Power has no player followers, but it's opposing Power does. Do you think that it will still be possible to oppose the faction if it has no followers? How can you pirate traders that don't exist? You can't, so of course they will exist as NPCs. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

The task is against NPCs so it is exactly the same in Open as it is in Solo. The only difference between the modes is the difference for which you choose that mode. You choose Open to have player interaction, you choose Solo not to. If you choose Open then you accept the chance of another player attacking you, and hindering your Power task. If you don't agree with that then do it in Solo.

I am under no illusion that PvE will not be present in the sense than NPC Traders and Pirates will not exist - I am quite certain they will exist. I am just trying to ascertain whether PvP is also meant to exist in this scenario, in a meaningful fashion. If a Dev came in right now and said "No", I would accept that and move on - I'm not going to fight against the powers that be.

P.S. I added only to my previous post in the place that you quoted - I realise that my original phrasing may have left doubt to my meaning.

 

[SteveLaw]

I am under no illusion that PvE will not be present in the sense than NPC Traders and Pirates will not exist - I am quite certain they will exist. I am just trying to ascertain whether PvP is also meant to exist in this scenario, in a meaningful fashion. If a Dev came in right now and said "No", I would accept that and move on - I'm not going to fight against the powers that be.

P.S. I added only to my previous post in the appropriate spot - I realise that my original phrasing may have left doubt to my meaning.

I do understand what you're saying and we absolutely need dev feedback (have you asked on the Dev update or newsletter thread?) but I don't believe that PvP would count directly towards any Power task. PvP doesn't count towards anything else.

Whether PvP is meaningful or not is a different issue. PvP is always meaningful to those players who find it meaningful and it isn't meaningful to those who don't care or dislike it. "Play your way." If you find PvP meaningful you chose Open, if you don't you play Solo. Forcing PvP through tasks doesn't make it any more meaningful to players who get nothing from it.

Even if meaningful PvP is officially "supported" in PP that does not change the fact that non-PvP is also officially supported via Solo/Group modes.

 

[TartanDragon]

If a trading PP is set up and a piracy and looting PP set up 100LY away. PvP in the trading PP would be pirates after the goods, but these would not count toward the PP as I would imagine they would be different from those 100LYs away.

Only really way I can think of for PvP in the other would be to make it like Combat Zones and have players chose aside before entering the system, which if taking part in PP you should have already done. While I doubt you will have player traders, I can only guess that RP from opposite sides would be trying to protect the NPC trade ships.

Again only guessing and I hope it makes some sense.

 

[Aimeryan]

I understand your posts. Both, in your own ways, are suggesting that PvP wont have meaning in Powerplay. If so, then so be it.

Is there a particular place to ask the Devs a question like this, do either of you know?

 

[SteveLaw]

If a trading PP is set up and a piracy and looting PP set up 100LY away. PvP in the trading PP would be pirates after the goods, but these would not count toward the PP as I would imagine they would be different from those 100LYs away.

Only really way I can think of for PvP in the other would be to make it like Combat Zones and have players chose aside before entering the system, which if taking part in PP you should have already done. While I doubt you will have player traders, I can only guess that RP from opposite sides would be trying to protect the NPC trade ships.

Again only guessing and I hope it makes some sense.

This is how I see it. Similar to CGs in that respect. You can almost always fit PvP around non-PvP tasks, meaningful or otherwise. That's absolutely fine and I totally support that. But it's a choice that individual players should be allowed to make without being vilified or made to feel like their choice is tantamount to cheating. Solo players don't care what Open players do. They don't mind that Open players might be working against their goal (personally I feel it all adds to the dynamicity of the galaxy) why does it bother Open players so much what Solo players do?

- - - Updated - - -

I understand your posts. Both, in your own ways, are suggesting that PvP wont have meaning in Powerplay. If so, then so be it.

Is there a particular place to ask the Devs a question like this, do either of you know?

You'd be best to ask on the Dev Update thread or the Newsletter thread I think. Devs seem to answer a few questions there but it's not guaranteed. (Do you know how to see all Dev posts in a thread with the little Frontier logo?) Beta's out on Tuesday though, so we'll start to get more info next week.

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=146453
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=146727

 

[Aimeryan]

why does it bother Open players so much what Solo players do?

I think the question requires context to have meaning. As per my example in the posts above, when you have something like traders vs. pirates one side desires, nay, requires combat, while the other needs to avoid it or withstand it. The easiest way for the latter to do this is to simply go Solo. This isn't directly a PvP / PvE expression; it is an efficiency expression - however, it ends up becoming the former too, which is why Open players care about Solo (not the players, the mode).

The Devs themselves have said they will think about the efficiency issue. This has some suggestion that they do not want going Solo as the way to get something done over doing it in Open. Going Solo because you prefer not to have player interaction is one thing, going Solo because it is advantageous over going Open is another. Indeed, I think this is where people are getting tangled up and caustic towards each other - a misunderstanding of what the other side has an issue with.

 

[TartanDragon]

This is how I see it now. Similar to CGs in that respect. You can fit PvP around non-PvP tasks, meaningful or otherwise. That's absolutely fine and I totally support that. But it's a choice that individual players should be allowed to make without being vilified or made to feel like their choice is tantamount to cheating. Solo players don't care what Open players do. They don't mind that Open players might be working against their goal, why does it bother Open players so much what Solo players do?

- - - Updated - - -



You'd be best to ask on the Dev Update thread on the Newsletter thread I think. Devs seem to answer a few questions there but it's not guaranteed. (Do you know how to see all Dev posts in a thread?) Beta's out on Tuesday though, so we'll start to get more info next week.

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=146453
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=146727

Not sure I explained it right. I'm guessing and everything I guess at would be in it's simplest form.

Trying to stop the trade PP would be pointless for those working the looting PP. Pirates in the trade PP would be just that pirates, just like those at CG now, I don't see that stopping any time soon.

I also remember a quote from a dev saying that attacking players of the opposite side would be fine as long as it was in the hostile area, this would be fine and PvP in the looting PP. Weather that means a disputed system or a Combat Zone I don't know. I'm just throwing stuff out there and hoping it gets the brighter minds working out more.

 

[SteveLaw]

I think the question requires context to have meaning. As per my example in the posts above, when you have something like traders vs. pirates one side desires, nay, requires combat, while the other needs to avoid it or withstand it. The easiest way for the latter to do this is to simply make it impossible for the former - go Solo. This means the contest becomes PvE only, with little or no PvP; this is completely fine, if that is what is intended.

Power Play is allowed in all modes, isn't that a clear statement that it is intended to be that way? David Braben actually stated that Solo players can participate in PP. "Solo players balance Solo players." This debate has been going on since Community Goals, long before Power Play was probably even worked on to any great extent. FD are very aware of the "problem" of mode switching for community goals and they still allow it in Power Play. It's not like it's something that's going to come as a surprise to them as an unintended consequence.

It's not designed for PvP, it allows PvP.

 

[TartanDragon]

I understand your posts. Both, in your own ways, are suggesting that PvP wont have meaning in Powerplay. If so, then so be it.

Is there a particular place to ask the Devs a question like this, do either of you know?

To try and answer this.

You have to sign up for a faction in PP before starting to play, as I read it. So imagine a system with two factions. The Raiders of Bobo and the Union of Bobo in the (surprise, surprise) Bobo System.

The Raiders have a PP to stop all traders bringing in Minerals. The Union do not have a PP goal but do you think they will allow the Raiders to blast all there traders out of space. This should also work in solo as both factions will also have NPC on their side, either as traders or attackers. I am more than sure it will be a little more complicated than this but I hope you get the gist.

 

[Aimeryan]

Power Play is allowed in all modes, isn't that a clear statement that it is intended to be that way? David Braben actually stated that Solo players can participate in PP. "Solo players balance Solo players." This debate has been going on since Community Goals, long before Power Play was probably even worked on to any great extent. FD are very aware of the "problem" of mode switching for community goals and they still allow it in Power Play. It's not like it's something that's going to come as a surprise to them as an unintended consequence.

It's not designed for PvP, it allows PvP.

Being allowed in all modes and being designed in such a way as to heavily favour one is not the same thing, though. Change the latter, keep the former.

P.S. I made substantial edits to the part you quoted, before I saw your post. Just thought I should let you know.

 

[SteveLaw]

Being allowed in all modes and being designed in such a way as to heavily favour one is not the same thing, though. Change the latter, keep the former.

It's subjective. That's the problem. You are seeing Solo play from an Open player's perspective.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

"Solo players balance Solo players."

Hehe, i never though of that. Of course, for every person on one side in a CG or other event, there is going to be a solo player working against it. As long as there are opposing community goals that is.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Hehe, i never though of that. Of course, for every person on one side in a CG or other event, there is going to be a solo player working against it. As long as there are opposing community goals that is.

Single players will participate in CGs / affiliate with Powers at random - it is reasonable to expect their efforts to average out in a mode and across modes.

I don't expect this to be the case for out-of-game groups (OoGGs) who choose to support a particular CG / Power - their efforts will be concentrated in support of the chosen CG(s) / Power(s).

 

[Aimeryan]

It's subjective. That's the problem. You are seeing Solo play from an Open player's perspective.

I don't see how the scenario that the Dev described would lead to a subjective result - the Traders, if they care at all about the goal of their power, will go Solo because of the obvious efficiency increase they will see (there is no reason to go Open and plenty to go Solo). There will be little or nothing for Open players with the opposing power to do in terms of PvP (because the traders are in Solo), so it will become PvE only for them too. The result is a lack of PvP in an event that may have been intended to include a meaningful amount of PvP (as well as PvE). This doesn't seem ideal at all.

To be clear (I can't stress this enough), my desire is not to stop Solo players being included in the power event. I merely want to ensure that there will be significant PvP in the event if the Devs intend that to be the case. I am not suggesting any solutions here (you may discard my previous suggested solutions for the time being), merely highlighting a potential issue - how it is dealt with is a separate conversation, one that is difficult to justify until we know whether this is an issue or not for the Devs (which may be why suggested solutions have been so ridiculed instead of looked at seriously by all). I think there will no resolution on this until the issue has been proven in game, and then only if the Devs see it as such, but the theory behind why it will be an issue is pretty sound.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I don't see how the scenario that the Dev described would lead to a subjective result - the Traders, if they care at all about the goal of their power, will go Solo because of the obvious efficiency increase they will see (there is no reason to go Open and plenty to go Solo). There will be little or nothing for Open players with the opposing power to do in terms of PvP (because the traders are in Solo), so it will become PvE only for them too. The result is a lack of PvP in an event that may have been intended to include a meaningful amount of PvP (as well as PvE). This doesn't seem ideal at all.

What would need to happen is for two adjacent Powers, supported by players who want to PvP, to go head to head - then those seeking PvP would find it (unless the PvP players decided to Min/Max out of Open, of course).

 

[Robert Maynard]

If NPCs also work towards Powerplay goals, those in Open opposed to that goal will benefit from shooting down NPCs.

If NPCs were not tasked to participate in Power Play goals then the Solo players would be very bored indeed.... I expect that Power NPCs will take part in the chosen action for the Power - it would be a poor show if they did not.

 

[Aimeryan]

If NPCs were not tasked to participate in Power Play goals then the Solo players would be very bored indeed.... I expect that Power NPCs will take part in the chosen action for the Power - it would be a poor show if they did not.

Indeed; it seems unimaginable to me that FD would miss NPCs out.

P.S. I'm not going to be around for while, again; I have a project I need to get on with and this is too distracting!

 

[Cody]

NPCs are second-class citizens in this universe!