Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

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Jockey79

Jockey79
Roybe said:
DBOBE has not promised that PvP would be pleasurable for all and would only occur consensually. Just that it would be there and people would care that it is.
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DBOBE (I keep forgetting to add the OBE bit :eek:) in the video on "Griefing" I linked (I think it was that one) did say that the murderer role is a valid one (and he looked quite please in my opinion saying it).
PvP is a part of the game, it was from the start and I hope will continue to be part of it. But it is just that, a part of it, it is not the whole game and the game should not be balanced around it.
DBOBE also stated (I think in the same video) that it is a self balancing system - which I suppose is why they have done very little towards changing anything regarding PvP (just bug and exploit fixes). And I think the new crime update is supposed to "encourage" folks to partake of more PvP, but I could be wrong there.
 

Aimeryan

Aimeryan
So, I watch the DB twitch and read the post linked. I couldn't find anything in the post regarding player-to-player interaction in particular, but it is a long long post and maybe I missed it. If so, could you quote the part (so that I can do a search on the post)?

For the DB twitch, I'm still listening (it is long), however, regarding the parts that he was talking about PvP being rare and meaningful it seemed to me to be in reference to pirating and griefing. Remember at the time there were no Community Goals, and Powerplay might not have even been a strong thought. I think it would be a stretch to apply the comment he made in a twitch feed regarding the griefing and pirating that was going on at that time to PvP in Powerplay.
 

SteveLaw

SteveLaw
Roybe said:
You are correct. Uncoordinated efforts result in a distribution curve that is ineffective in pushing an outcome. However, will you at least admit that when people organize, they will affect an outcome? Or do you feel that if a group organized for there will be an equal size group working contra...thus negating each other?
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Organising a group of people towards a common goal has nothing to do with modes. Although it's easier to recruit Open players, obviously.
 

Jordan Cobalt

Jordan Cobalt
Jockey79 said:
Who said it is sinking?
All you do is project doom and gloom without any actual proof that it is happening.

People may have moved away from the starting areas and spread out more, thus making it harder to find anyone.
Remember, space is a big place. And players seeing players is supposed to be "rare and meaningful".

Unless FD actual publish some numbers, no one knows how well or badly they are doing.
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I was not implying any doom and gloom.
 
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SteveLaw

SteveLaw
Aimeryan said:
So, I watch the DB twitch and read the post linked. I couldn't find anything in the post regarding player-to-player interaction in particular, but it is a long long post and maybe I missed it. If so, could you quote the part (so that I can do a search on the post)?

For the DB twitch, I'm still listening (it is long), however, regarding the parts that he was talking about PvP being rare and meaningful it seemed to me to be in reference to pirating and griefing. Remember at the time there were no Community Goals, and Powerplay might not have even been a strong thought. I think it would be a stretch to apply the comment he made in a twitch feed regarding the griefing and pirating that was going on at that time to PvP in Powerplay.
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There was one mention of PvP in the AMA.

David Braben said:
From Philip Coutts:
Do you envisage Powerplay as a tool to raise the amount of PvP currently happening? It seems that you are giving carte blanche to attack anyone from a different faction to you, regardless if they are wanted or not. Is there not a danger that the inhabited parts of the galaxy end up as one big warzone?
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The carte blanche only exists within systems controlled by your Power and only apply against ships that are aligned with a Power of a different major faction to your Power. Powers interact with each other in different ways and combat is but one of those methods. How the Power is structured geographically will also guide which areas are potential hotspots. In some case Powers could provide a safety zone within their borders by their actions.
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PvP support in PP is limited in a way that makes it relevant and meaningful within the contexts of Power Play. Invading an enemy Power's system and defending your Power's system from invaders.

There were no Community Goals at the time of the video. They were added later and you will notice that no part of CGs actually rewards PvP. They reward cooperation between players but not conflict between players. That would seem to fit entirely into the vision of predominately cooperative interaction with rare but meaningful PvP. Viewed at the right angle you could in fact see Community Goals as an attempt to encourage more cooperation as per the vision while giving a target to some meaningful PvP (pirates would be attracted to trade goals). Player choice to allow PvP or not is still fully catered for by allowed CGs across all modes.
 
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Jockey79

Jockey79
Aimeryan said:
So, I watch the DB twitch and read the post linked. I couldn't find anything in the post regarding player-to-player interaction in particular, but it is a long long post and maybe I missed it. If so, could you quote the part (so that I can do a search on the post)?

For the DB twitch, I'm still listening (it is long), however, regarding the parts that he was talking about PvP being rare and meaningful it seemed to me to be in reference to pirating and griefing. Remember at the time there were no Community Goals, and Powerplay might not have even been a strong thought. I think it would be a stretch to apply the comment he made in a twitch feed regarding the griefing and pirating that was going on at that time to PvP in Powerplay.
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The Twitch video was recorded last september (2014), how fast do you think they planned, designed, coded, tested and published the Community Goals ???
DBOBE would have been fully aware of CG when he did that presentation. Maybe not down to the smallest details, the main bulk and idea would have been on a planning board somewhere in the office.

Michael Brookes posted asking for people to test CG in Feb 2015 by the way - I doubt they put all the together in under 5 months ;)

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=108889
 

Aimeryan

Aimeryan
Jockey79 said:
The Twitch video was recorded last september (2014), how fast do you think they planned, designed, coded, tested and published the Community Goals ???
DBOBE would have been fully aware of CG when he did that presentation. Maybe not down to the smallest details, the main bulk and idea would have been on a planning board somewhere in the office.

Michael Brookes posted asking for people to test CG in Feb 2015 by the way - I doubt they put all the together in under 5 months ;)

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=108889
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Definitely CGs were probably on the horizon at that point, and I agree with SteveLaw (as I have done before on this matter) that CGs are not player-to-player interaction. Furthermore, there definitely is a feel of, if not cooperation, at least not to hinder each other; first because the better everyone in general does, the better it is for you, second because it wont help you in the rankings because you wont be fulfilling the CG yourself.

However, Powerplay does seem to imply a conflict between players. It was not likely at the forefront of DB's mind back then (if indeed they had even thought about it at that point as more than just a future possibility). Hence, one could say that DB's comments in the twitch feed (which in context really do seem to refer to griefing) on PvP probably did not apply to Powerplay.

As for the thread comment, thank you. Everything in that answer strengthens my belief that PvP is something they are looking at seriously now, as opposed to "rare". The question is a concern on just how expansive PvP may become. The answer to me is defensive, rather than refuting; basically a version of "Yes, there will be more, but it wont be everywhere".

On the other hand, it still isn't the same as saying they will go to the effort of supporting PvP, in the appropriate Powerplay events, if something is detracting from it. As I have said, and others have expressed in their own ways, I am concerned that the efficiency (through nothing providing a challenge/obstacle) of Solo will basically result in "if you are serious about Powerplay, you play in Solo". Again, since I feel I have to be defensive on this, I do not want Solo to suffer in any way in order to combat this, if indeed it does become an issue. Any solution must take that into account.
 
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SteveLaw

SteveLaw
Aimeryan said:
However, Powerplay does seem to imply a conflict between players.
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Conflict between Powers. I think it's an important distinction. There will be certain areas where players can be part of the conflict and that is supported by removing penalties for PvP between Powers' followers, but only in those areas. It seems to be attempting to cater for some PvP without turning PP into total PvP warfare for every task. I hope it's enough to satisfy PvPers but it'll never please everyone. Nothing ever will sadly.
 
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Jockey79

Jockey79
Aimeryan said:
Definitely CGs were probably on the horizon at that point, and I agree with SteveLaw (as I have done before one this matter) that CGs are not player-to-player interaction - there definitely is a feel of, if not cooperation, at least not to hinder each other.

However, Powerplay does seem to imply a conflict between players. It was not likely at the forefront of DB's mind back then (if indeed they had even thought about it at that point as more than just a future possibility). Hence, one could say that DB's comments in the twitch feed (which in context really do seem to refer to griefing) on PvP probably did not apply to Powerplay.

As for the thread comment, thank you. Everything in that answer strengthens my belief that PvP is something they are looking at seriously now, as opposed to "rare". The answer seems defensive, rather than refuting.
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Oh I have no doubt that PvP is a bigger thing than they expected, I also think people did not spread out as much as FD expected either.
As for the PP update, again they are making PvP elements but it is not focused around it. Part of the Q&A with DBOBE;

David Braben said:
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Alexander the Grape
In the newsletter, it was mentioned that an intersection between a trading power and a military power will result in piracy missions.

Will this make NPC piracy more profitable or will we continue to need to focus on players?
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It can be more profitable, and it will apply to both players and NPCs.
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So, something that would have completely relied on human targets (under the current set up, as NPCs suck when it comes to cargo) is being updated to have plausible NPC targets - not exactly pushing for PvP action there.
 
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Aimeryan

Aimeryan
SteveLaw said:
Conflict between Powers. I think it's an important distinction. There will be certain areas where players can be part of the conflict and that is supported by removing penalties for PvP between Powers' followers, but only in those areas. It seems to be attempting to cater for some PvP without turning PP into total PvP warfare for every task. I hope it's enough to satisfy PvPers but it'll never please everyone. Nothing ever will sadly.
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I hope it will too, being one of those at times. However, the concern I have highlighted may prove to cause it to feel empty (because it may indeed cause Open to be empty, of those involved in PP).

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Jockey79 said:
Oh I have no doubt that PvP is a bigger thing than they expected, I also think people did not spread out as much as FD expected either.
As for the PP update, again they are making PvP elements but it is not focused around it. Part of the Q&A with DBOBE;



So, something that would have completely relied on human targets (under the current set up, as NPCs suck when it comes to cargo) is being updated to have plausible NPC targets - not exactly pushing for PvP action there.
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I updated my previous post; it partially agrees with you Jockey79, in that it doesn't go far enough to answer the intent issue.
 
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Jockey79

Jockey79
Aimeryan said:
I hope and feel it will too, being one of those at times. However, the concern I have highlighted may prove to cause it to feel empty (because it may indeed cause Open to be empty of those involved in PP).

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I updated my previous post; it partially agrees with you Jockey79, in that it doesn't go far enough to answer the intent issue.
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Well, space is empty ;) lol

As for what happens with PP, I suppose we will have to wait and see what happens. If the crime update works (which from what I've read, I doubt it - but you never know) - perhaps people who have left Open return and make it feel more populated.

I do feel the intent for the game at the start was quite clear, though I have no idea after PP what the plan is. You never know, something to help PvP players could be in the works.
 
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