Confessions of a Frustrated Explorer

[dannywhac]

Before any explorations changed (unless we get lvl 3's in 1.3 which might add meat to expl.), anything that adds time to scanning should be a no-no until FD sort out the sever lag when it comes to entering a new system.

Having to honk up to 4 times, waiting patiently whilst it tells you no new stuff discovered when there's a star sat right in front of you, and then having to wait (in some cases a while) for the system map to come up needs a fix. It's not my internet connection and I'm only 30 miles down the road from FD. When you get into 20k+ exploring distances, it takes the edge off discovering new ELWs, AWs, WWs etc.

Also if the payout for systems further from Sol increases by distance it's not going to change a lot - most of the NS fields are c.10,000Ly+ away - they'll just get farmed more, with the few more dedicated explorers still going out rimwards.

 

[stephen_usher]

Well, it seems this will happen again and again. Every now and then, someone new to exploring, or the game, comes up with the conclusion that parallax is the best way to do exploration and how come, we thousands of explorers, for months and months now, haven't realized that the ADS is a "win all" button...

There are many things that need fixed in exploration, but until you dont really go out there and spent few WEEKS in a exploration, you won't realize that the ADS is NOT one of them....

Been out for weeks and I still think that the ADS in its current implementation is a problem.

Now, I also think that a fixed limited distance would also be a problem, so I would propose that that the scanner picked up objects determined by a combination of their angular diameter and their temperature. i.e. it's how easy they would be to detect in real life. Small, cool objects would not show up until you were close. Hot or large objects a long way away etc. The difference levels of scanner would merely have different sensitivities.

Harder to program in game than the current (seemingly quick fix during development, common with many of the systems unfortunately) but shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[Gormadoc]

Agree.

Nerf CR from ADS and boost it for detailed surface scan.

 

[MrDudeGuy]

Well, it seems this will happen again and again....

If this is a subject that sees such frequent discussion, that may be an indication of its merit. People tend to dismiss a valid point for the purposes of playing the "grizzled veteran" card in order to pad their own ego. In fact, my main point is to give you salty-dogs more reason to brag. Let there be a way to differentiate the real explorers from the casual. Give credit to those who are willing to spend the time "in the black." I'm not saying that the ADS is a "win-all," but there is no denying the fact that it is an equalizer. It is one of those mechanics that decreases the skill gap, allowing someone to buy skill rather than earn it.

I know what it's like to spend time in open space, I'm not new to this game. There's no need to throw stats around, simply due to the fact that they don't mean anything in the context of this thread... The ADS throws all accomplishments into doubt and removes the credibility of rank.

Another point to be made here is the tragedy of the code. The physics engine in this game is a work of art, but it is wasted art when it is not used to its fullest potential. The ADS allows to ignore the beautiful elegance of the galaxy and simply "grind-out" some exploration. Bring the beauty back to the code and let us use this universe that was so painstakingly and lovingly created for our enjoyment.

Now let's talk of balance for a second. Despite your own personal feelings on the matter, let's take an objective look at the numbers. If it is indeed true that you can earn 66% of the credits without needing to scan at all, then there really is a numerical mismatch. 66% of the money for 1% of the time and effort... It doesn't take a mathematician to spot the injustice there. And what about the first-exploration bonus? I understand that there are a ton of unexplored systems in this game, and an increase in credits may seem unbalanced, but imagine if it wasn't so easy to put your name on a planet anymore. If you want to be the casual explorer you can do so and make some money, but for those with the dedication and love of discovery, make their time worth the effort.

I know that there are many dedicated explorers out there. Every time I see a Reddit post with pictures of nebulae and black holes it makes me smile. No other game I have ever played has had such a high volume of players who have such passion. I'm not asking for greater rewards for those intrepid explorers, I want less rewards for those who don't have the fortitude, drive, and passion to truly earn the right to call themselves explorers.

 

[MrDudeGuy]

Been out for weeks and I still think that the ADS in its current implementation is a problem.

Now, I also think that a fixed limited distance would also be a problem, so I would propose that that the scanner picked up objects determined by a combination of their angular diameter and their temperature. i.e. it's how easy they would be to detect in real life. Small, cool objects would not show up until you were close. Hot or large objects a long way away etc. The difference levels of scanner would merely have different sensitivities.

This posted while I was writing, so I didn't see it until I was done. Love the idea, love the realism

 

[zinzaemon]

I'm not getting that 66% statistic. In my case it's much closer to 5 or 10%.

How do people figure it's 66?

Edit: by the way, check out the sticky on the exploration section of the forum. It lists many explorer logs if you like that sort of thing

Yep, sorry, it's entirely possible I may have recalled the wrong value...
I thought I'd read somewhere that a DSS rewards a +50% value once scanned. Assuming this is correct (and it looks optimistic), any single body would be worth 2/3 of its total value with ADS, with a 1/3 bonus added for DSS
i.e 66%+33%

However, according to wiki this DSS bonus may be as small as 30% which makes the entire DSS/time/profit mechanic even less desirable and the proliferation of honk/scoop&scoot tourists will continue..


Then again, my math may be utterly , I'm better at drawing stuff

 

[Deleted member 38366]

--- Deleted ---

 

[Oopsie Daisy]

This is the equivaalent of the Advanced Discovery Scanner. There are many wonderful ways to use the real physics that have been programmed into this game to explore and discover the wonders of the galaxy. I have discovered trinary stars hundreds of thousands of LS away from each other using using orbital trajectories and relative motion. I get such an immense feeling of satisfaction every time I find some remote gas giant orbiting in the gravitational null-zone between two stars. And yet, every time I see that someone else got there before me and put their name on it, I always wonder if they put the same time and effort that I did into its discover, or if they simply paid a bunch of credits and pushed a single button...

I just got back from my very first deep space exploration; I went to the Witch Head nebula. All I had was my minivan-meets-space-shuttle (a hauler), the basic discovery scanner, no surface scanner, and the second from the bottom fuel scoop. It's all I could afford at the time. And like you, I discovered many stars in multi-star systems by using paralax and a basic understanding of where these stars should be relative to the one I jumped to. And yes, nearly all were already discovered. I also wondered how many of these were easy-mode discoveries using an advanced discovery scanner. Anyway, I did manage to be the first to scan one entire system, but it was definitely the exception, not the rule. (I also learned the hard way that asteroid fields are worth NOTHING [sigh, I scanned so many; never again]; wish I had known that before spending Memorial Day Weekend on this expedition.)

 

[dognosh]

I just got back from my very first deep space exploration; I went to the Witch Head nebula. All I had was my minivan-meets-space-shuttle (a hauler), the basic discovery scanner, no surface scanner, and the second from the bottom fuel scoop. It's all I could afford at the time. And like you, I discovered many stars in multi-star systems by using paralax and a basic understanding of where these stars should be relative to the one I jumped to. And yes, most were already discovered. I also wondered how many of these were easy-mode discoveries using an advanced discovery scanner. Anyway, I did manage to be the first to scan one entire system, but it was definitely the exception, not the rule. (I also learned that asteroid fields are worth NOTHING [sigh, I scanned so many; never again]; wish I had known that before spending Memorial Day Weekend on this expedition.)

you live and learn, well done on your efforts

The flipside :

My last trip I did over 2600 systems(I think) and once outside the local zone(about 1000 LY out from our bubble) I doubt I saw any tagged systems, I reckon I found over 2500 virgin systems.
But then if you do go to tourist spots(SAG A* & Nebulas) expect others to have been there before

 

[Oopsie Daisy]

you live and learn, well done on your efforts

The flipside :

My last trip I did over 2600 systems(I think) and once outside the local zone(about 1000 LY out from our bubble) I doubt I saw any tagged systems, I reckon I found over 2500 virgin systems.
But then if you do go to tourist spots(SAG A* & Nebulas) expect others to have been there before

Yeah, I figured nebulae are "tourist spots" so I didn't really expect to be first to anything. But I wanted a well demarcated destination to cut my novice chops on. Since I got there and back (hmm, might have to name my ship There and Back Again) with almost no damage, I am pleased with my excursion. Plus, I got some sweet pics!

But my main point was that, like the OP said, I did a lot of work out there scanning stuff, super cruising to the edge of many of those systems to scan everything with my beginner equipment. I don't feel I was well compensated for it (~600k CRs). But I now have a surface scanner and the best scoop available so that's something for my next trip (probably to the galactic rim for kicks).

 

[dognosh]

Yeah, I figured nebulae are "tourist spots" so I didn't really expect to be first to anything. But I wanted a well demarcated destination to cut my novice chops on. Since I got there and back (hmm, might have to name my ship There and Back Again) with almost no damage, I am pleased with my excursion. Plus, I got some sweet pics!

But my main point was that, like the OP said, I did a lot of work out there scanning stuff, super cruising to the edge of many of those systems to scan everything with my beginner equipment. I don't feel I was well compensated for it (~600k CRs). But I now have a surface scanner and the best scoop available so that's something for my next trip (probably to the galactic rim for kicks).

you have the correct attitude
When you come back from your next trip, if you make more than 5M, please come and log it here : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=144776

 

[Raduk]

Sorry, nobody wants exploring to take longer than it already does.

 

[Pete]

People speak about "skill" in exploring, and try and call the ADS "easy mode", but they're probably missing out where skill actually comes into it for serious long distance explorers.

Skill is required in:
Choosing a route/destination
Find somewhere interesting to go and a sensible route that maximises your number of undiscovered systems is a skill.

Refining your route
A talented explorer will not just point the route-finder in 1000 Ly increments in the direction they want to travel, they'll scout out the path to see if there are particularly interesting systems they want to visit on the way. Determining which systems might be interesting is a skill.

Deciding what to scan
People talk about being "OCD" but as you explore more you realise you cannot scan absolutely every system body in every single system if you actually want to travel serious distances. How far will you travel to that secondary star, how interesting for the planets, etc etc. In my current trip I just stopped by a neutron star. Someone else had tagged it and moved on, ignoring the beautiful ringed ammonia world just 2,500 Ls away - worth almost as much as the neutron star itself.

Deciding what order to scan
When you're scanning a lot of bodies you need to plan your route through them carefully or you'll be backtracking and cross-tracking yourself a lot. This skill can save a lot of time!

It's not all about the scanner, getting the ADS is when your serious exploration just begins.

-- Pete.

 

[Calvert]

I enjoy doing discovery and I agree the current mechanic does lack something. The sense of true discovery.

I don’t think the range of the ADS is the problem though. I think being able to pull up a full system map and have a look at the planet icons and figure out the relative worth without getting anywhere near them is the main issue here. The bulk of the mystery is gone after the “honk”!

Instead I think we could seriously improve the system, but it won’t be a quick fix. Others have suggested wuick fix improvements which are great for the short term, I’m going to describe what I would like to see at the end of the process.

We still have an ADS and we honk as normal. All discovery scanners work as they do now in terms of range. We get returned a bunch of new signal sources (Lets call them gravitational anomalies). Not yet targetable. If you pull up the system map…. Nothing. Now we move a minimum of say 100LS and honk again. Still get the same gravitational anomalies, but now we have distance and can target them. (An alternative here is that we don’t get tarets, instead we get orbit lines which we have to track around to get close enough to resolve a body. Better skills involved, but might be really time consuming). If we pull up system map, maybe we get ??? symbols where planets roughly may be. Still not way determine what type of body they are.

Now the DSS comes into play. We target an anomaly and fly to it. From a relatively long range (dependent on body size) we can resolve the planet type (lets call this one of the levels that aren’t used in discover yet). Get closer and we get the results we get now. I’d also like to have an additional mechanic that gets us quite close to the planet and requires us to orbit once to pull up real detail that has high value (type of vegetation / rock / whatever) that would be sold for prospective agencies interested in resource extraction / terraforming etc.

Now to the not insignificant issue of how to we explain in game that the ADS has been nerfed to not actually give us the level of info we get now. I’d go for the fact the technology has had to change because it was noted the output was causing mass sickness amongst deep space explorers due to the type of radiation emitted. Now use gravitational sensing… no-one gets sick but a bit more work to get the results…

 

[Drelthar]

What exploring needs is some more interesting gameplay in it really. Probes to fire down onto planets, long range scanning drones which can discover distant comets, minigames where you move a scanner across the solar system finding objects in the arc of your scanning device, then wave your scanner manually over a planet from up really close to discover hidden resources.

Press button is kind of bad...

 

[jmg]

The topic has been around for quite a while...

If you don't like the unlimited Range of the Adv. Scanner - try Discovery with the 1000Ls Intermediate Scanner instead.

Apart from taking literally hours to scan a whole System, you'd likely still leave an incomplete System as you missed something.
It just doesn't work.

Now couple that massive time invested with the still fairly low payouts...
Not a good idea. At all.

While I understand the merits of circling countless times, hunting for elusive missing objects or finding that distant 2nd Sun (done that - got the T-Shirt), doing this on a serious long-range Discovery trip becomes utterly pointless.
You'd spend month discovering what might often end up as Icy Planets and you wouldn't get far doing all that.

Discovery is a painfully slow, repetitive and manual process as-is... Severely downgrading it even further by limiting Adv. Scanner Range would just about kill it off entirely.
Even with all the gear we have, >99.9% of the Galaxy is still entirely unscanned. Downgrading isn't an option - Upgrading Discovery is actually the way to go, be it through launchable drones or some NPC Wingmen assisting and speeding up the scanning.

PS.
To really comprehend the scale and implications of all this - take a >10000LY tour (i.e. hunting Earth-Likes) and imagine doing this only with an Intermediate Scanner.
IMHO that would be a pure nightmare and stall Exploration to a near-halt if that was the best we had.

But don't take my word for it, I'm merely ranked Pioneer with some ~4000 Systems visited and ~70M Cr worth in Exploration.

+1 on this. exploration is already too much grind. Nerfing ADS will cripple the profession. Maybe when we get planetary landings, we'll see big bucks for landing on ELWs.

 

[MrDudeGuy]

Sorry, nobody wants exploring to take longer than it already does.

Actually, the point is that real explorers don't care about the time it takes. Besides, it really doesn't take that long to scan a system if you have the right skills... which you can't buy... which is why people like to complain about the possibility of nerfing the ADS... they don't want to learn skills they want to buy them

In fact, if we want to have the discussion about reducing "the grind," let's talk about things that could actually help with that:

1) The better, more expensive scanners would take less time to scan
2) The better, more expensive scanners could scan from much further away
3) Make some scanners that are not parabolic (allow us to scan things that are behind us or to the side).
4) Allow for some type of "pulse scanner" that could give you detailed surface scans in a small radius (maybe 250 LS) at the push of a button.

All of this would greatly reduce exploration time while still making it a skill-based profession.

 

[CMDR AKIRA MASAKARI]

Well, it seems this will happen again and again. Every now and then, someone new to exploring, or the game, comes up with the conclusion that parallax is the best way to do exploration and how come, we thousands of explorers, for months and months now, haven't realized that the ADS is a "win all" button...

There are many things that need fixed in exploration, but until you dont really go out there and spent few WEEKS in a exploration, you won't realize that the ADS is NOT one of them....

This one. I agree exploration should have more gameplay mechanics, that i hope they would be introduced with lvl 3 scans one day. But if you stay for weeks you realize that the ADS is a must. Probes/Drones, different scanners, equipment that needs skills to be used to recieve way more information in nice diagrams. This can use several minutes of active gameplay, but should be aimed to those RARE interesting objects that you find among the million useless rocky ball with the ADS. And then increased rewards for this additional data.

But with 400B system the ADS is a must.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Its too late to ditch the advanced scanner now. People have gotten used to it. I suspect it was initially a short-term placeholder that never got fleshed out properly, and now its too late. Compare it to the engaging and well-thought out mechanics that were discussed during the kickstarter, and you wouldn't believe it was the same design team who thought up the original idea but sadly went on and implemented something so devoid of skill that its not even funny anymore.

Anyway, like I said, its probably too late now. But there are still plenty of ways to flesh out exploration and give explorers more choice if FDev are wary of throwing difficulty or skill into the mix at this late stage and upsetting players who don't want it. One would be to introduce different scanner types.

• Scientific scanners that are ideal for pinpointing black holes, neutron stars, space anomalies, and dark systems.
• A prospectors scanner ideal for pinpointing high metal content planets and resource-rich asteroid belts.
• And finally a scanner ideal for detecting organic compounds in atmospheres, i.e. pinpointing Earth like worlds, ammonia based life words, and water worlds etc.

Only being able to fit 1 or 2 of those would at least allow some specialization into the profession and make players actually think about what type of expedition they want to go on next. Combat has specialization, and to a lesser extent the trade profession has too (i.e. courier or bulk hauler). But as it stands there is no specialization in exploration at the moment because there is no real choice in equipment, just in its effectiveness, which ranges from useless to god mode.

Exploration-specific missions based on those three categories could be offered too - giving the player an incentive to re-equip their ship to suit the role he's taken on.

Exploration in gamma had hostile NPCs in almost every system you traveled to, no matter the distance. There was no route planner so each jump had to be set manually via the map. There was no star filter either, so finding the cash cow of exploration - those neutron stars and black holes, was something done more by accident than design. Fuel and maintenance costs were much higher too.

Now we don't even have NPCs in the frontier badlands anymore, long distance route planning takes seconds, and those cash cow systems are handed to you on a plate thanks to the map filtering.

Some of the changes were for the better and were necessary (i.e. NPCs 50,000 LYs from home in sidewinders and eagles was nonsensical), but the trend since gamma has been to make it easier and easier to explore, when it was already quite easy to begin with. I would like to see a whole patch update dedicated to fleshing out the professions after 1.3... especially exploration... with an emphasis on player skill, or at the very least something that encourages meaningful choices and/or sacrifices to be made.

 

[Dr.Evanzan]

I'm sympathetic to both sides of this debate, I think.
As I see it, the problem with the current exploration mechanic (in terms of scanning bodies within systems) comes down to a problem of information - you either have all the information or none of it.
The basic (and even intermediate) discovery scanners allow for a bit of fun trying to track down astronomical bodies with the parallax method BUT it is only fun up to a point since there is little to help you locate those bodies that are too far away to use the method effectively.
The advanced discovery scanner replaces no information with full information, just leaving the lengthy process of flying to bodies and scanning them.
So the current choice is a potentially fun/frustrating method that takes a very long time and is impractical for a lot of systems versus a more efficient method that provides little challenge/interest (mechanically) whatsoever.
(That's not to say I think exploring as a whole lacks challenge/interest but I think it is telling that the skills of exploration that Pete mentions above are essentially larger strategic choices - the actual process of exploring is just fly to a body and scan.)

This provides a split between those people who want a more interesting process and those who are scared this will just mean that the already lengthy time involved in exploring will get larger for little benefit.

I think clearly this problem cannot be solved by any superficial changes to the ADS itself but requires a bit of an overhaul to the whole system.
Now that is also, clearly, going to cause a lot of disruption and likely be unpopular with many people just because it changes things.
However, if such a system was to be implemented, I would propose something along these lines (and contains elements similar to those proposed by FalconFly and Calvert above):
- 'unexplored' bodies are scanned as normal, as with the current process for performing a detailed scan
- bodies will only be discovered as 'unexplored' by discovery scanners if within normal (detailed) scan range (which encourages actually scanning bodies afterwards)
- if outside of normal (detailed) scan range but within a given range (determined by class of discovery scanner and mass of body) a bodies approximate location will be discovered as a marker (e.g. a 'resolved contact' or somesuch) but you will need to visually locate the body and get within normal scan range to formally identify it as an astronomical body (using discovery scan again)
- if outside of both normal (detailed) scan range and discovery scan range, all remaining bodies will be combined under a marker (e.g. an 'unresolved contact' marker at the centre point of the collection of bodies).

The 'unresolved contact' will provide an indication both that there is something else out there and roughly where it might be located (relative to the scan point) and subsequent discovery scans from other locations can be used to triangulate any given 'unresolved contact' marker into distinct 'unresolved contact' markers until you eventually get within range to turn them into a 'resolved contact' then an 'unexplored' body.
Both 'unresolved contact' and 'resolved contact' markers will only provide mass information on the system map (with suitable corresponding icons), you'll need to get at least an 'unexplored' body to identify what it is (by it's icon) on the system map.

The ADS would perform roughly similar for larger bodies as currently (i.e. stars < 500,000 LS would return as a 'resolved contact') with this dropping off when using Intermediate or Basic DS, although actual distances for various bodies would require some testing.
Prices may be increased to compensate for the added difficulty in locating bodies, with 'resolved contacts' earning a comparable amount to 'unexplored' bodies currently (so scan and jump wouldn't earn less for most systems) and detailed scanned bodies earning a bit more than currently.
Crucially, the time to perform a detailed scan of a body would be greatly reduced to compensate for the added difficulty in locating 'unexplored' bodies such that it might actually be worth scanning rocky moons now.