Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[SteveLaw]

Incidentally, I've been playing the 1.3 Beta and the combat AI is vastly improved, so the "Solo easy mode" argument will be no longer valid from the full release of 1.3. It won't be as unpredictable as a human of course, but it doesn't mean that flying around in Solo is something you can do on autopilot without any effort either.

Good to hear. More predictable perhaps but less fallible. Plus it shows that continual AI improvements are part of the development process (most of us knew this anyway). However, non-valid arguments are the bread and butter of this thread.

How's Power Play looking for PvP centric gameplay?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

How's Power Play looking for PvP centric gameplay?

Not had a proper look yet, but people are going to have to take more care where they fly. For instance, the Pirate power is looking quite powerful. Woe betide those who use trading tools and see a very nice trade route in the pirate sphere and fly in without checking where they are going. PCs will be able to attack them with impunity, unless the trader is also aligned to that power (not likely).

On the reverse side, clever traders will likely align with a trade oriented power, so pirates will have to go into their spheres of influence, and face greater risk from NPC and PC bounty hunters operating in those zones.

Overall... it looks very interesting. Very very interesting.

EDIT: Or for that matter, just stupidly plotting a route across civilized space and not noticing you are flying through pirate controlled systems... ouch!

 

[SteveLaw]

unless the trader is also aligned to that power (not likely).

An interesting tactical option though. Depends on bonuses, systems controlled and leaving penalties.

From the few screenshots I've seen it does indeed look interesting.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Yes that is exactly what I want.

Why do you play solo sometimes and open others?

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Great, awesome, let the people afraid of PvP not affect real CMDR's. Let them play and affect the galaxy for other people afraid of PvP, but not affect real players.

May I ask... why did you buy this game then? IF you bought in ignorance without doign any homework, well I am sorry ED is not the game you wanted (genuinely I am) but ED has advertised mixed modes and changing at will since day 1, which was back in 2012. I understand why you want to ban everyone who ever ventures outside of open from open but the thing is surely you must see that given this feature is central to why many of us backed, it would be a real kick in the nut sack to all of us who rely on those features and bought BECAUSE of those features.


WHY do I play in different modes?

I play co-op with friends sometimes. I am just not that into VS play in elite, but that being said, many of my friends are. To implement your system either means I have to play in a mode I am not happy in all the time, or my friends do. As it is now, We can play in our own modes until we want to hook up and then either I pop into open, or we make a private group.

further more, DB explained that in solo mode ED uses next to no bandwidth. He demoed it playing on a train tethered to his phone. Not all of us have access to good internet all the time. Indeed even when I do, my wife has to tunnel into work sometimes and it sucks our entire bandwidth when she works from home. Solo is playable, and trust me, you would not WANT me in open when I have barely a few k spare bandwidth to play with.

Not your problem you may argue for all of the above............ but it is because it was all written out how it would work, and its working great for those of use who knew what we were buying.

The 1 concession I would make if it were my game, would be any bounties picked up against a CMDR in open, should maybe only expire when you are in open... so if you drop to solo, you stay wanted, but the 7 day countdown does not tick down unless in open... Just an idea and in no way a demand.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

An interesting tactical option though. Depends on bonuses, systems controlled and leaving penalties.

From the few screenshots I've seen it does indeed look interesting.

Could be funny for the unwitting pirate. "Ah ha! A fat trader hauling gold in MY space! Ill teach him!" *Bounty awarded* "Oh... crap!".

 

[fademist]

Could be funny for the unwitting pirate. "Ah ha! A fat trader hauling gold in MY space! Ill teach him!" *Bounty awarded* "Oh... crap!".

funny thing some stil complain about the missions lol;p

 

[FuzzySpider]

How's Power Play looking for PvP centric gameplay?

For the most part it's pretty much as you speculated. There is absolutely nothing in there that wouldn't work as a single player experience, and there is nothing directly adversarial in it either (so no blockades or such).

DISCLAIMER: I can't access the PDF instruction thingy as my PC doesn't have a PDF reader (I know, it's very lean), so I might be confused. So the following information needs confirmation.

There is a GIGANTIC flaw in Powerplay (which hardly anyone has talked about), which does make the game very PvP centric but not in a way that anyone has anticipated or even wanted. There are basically 5 ratings you get with each faction. For rating 1 you just have to join. For rating 2 you have to get 100 merits. But from then on you have to be in the top 50%, 25% and then for the top rating you have to be in the top 10 players. That's right folks, in Powerplay your biggest competitors are not rival factions but the best members of your own faction. Not that this really factors into Solo/Open, as it favours grinding more than anything.

Even worse, you get a perk at rating 3. In the case of Archon Delaine (the pirate faction) this is a special burst laser which doesn't damage hulls. In the case of Zachary Hudson (the military man of the Federation) you get a large frag cannon with an increased range and tighter spread. And so on. Can you see the problem? People are going to flip from faction to faction, grind to rating 3, leave, and collect all of these goodies.

This new feature which is supposed to make the universe more dynamic, interesting and engaging, and supposed to make us in some way care about our actions and activities, is basically going to make us compete with our allies while getting involved with any old faction without much thought of who or why. Far from rewarding being involved in factions this rewards being detached and mercenary about it.

I hope they push back release a bit and go back to the drawing board on this part of powerplay. Have faction rewards based on time spent belonging to a faction, with rewards revoked when leaving said faction somehow (even if they are modular rewards).

 

[NeilF]

For the most part it's pretty much as you speculated. There is absolutely nothing in there that wouldn't work as a single player experience, and there is nothing directly adversarial in it either (so no blockades or such).

DISCLAIMER: I can't access the PDF instruction thingy as my PC doesn't have a PDF reader (I know, it's very lean), so I might be confused. So the following information needs confirmation.

There is a GIGANTIC flaw in Powerplay (which hardly anyone has talked about), which does make the game very PvP centric but not in a way that anyone has anticipated or even wanted. There are basically 5 ratings you get with each faction. For rating 1 you just have to join. For rating 2 you have to get 100 merits. But from then on you have to be in the top 50%, 25% and then for the top rating you have to be in the top 10 players. That's right folks, in Powerplay your biggest competitors are not rival factions but the best members of your own faction. Not that this really factors into Solo/Open, as it favours grinding more than anything.

Even worse, you get a perk at rating 3. In the case of Archon Delaine (the pirate faction) this is a special burst laser which doesn't damage hulls. In the case of Zachary Hudson (the military man of the Federation) you get a large frag cannon with an increased range and tighter spread. And so on. Can you see the problem? People are going to flip from faction to faction, grind to rating 3, leave, and collect all of these goodies.

This new feature which is supposed to make the universe more dynamic, interesting and engaging, and supposed to make us in some way care about our actions and activities, is basically going to make us compete with our allies while getting involved with any old faction without much thought of who or why. Far from rewarding being involved in factions this rewards being detached and mercenary about it.

I hope they push back release a bit and go back to the drawing board on this part of powerplay. Have faction rewards based on time spent belonging to a faction, with rewards revoked when leaving said faction somehow (even if they are modular rewards).

Interesting about the special items... And if people are trying as hard as they can to get to "Level 3" to get one of these items, are they going to do it in Solo or Open? In which one will they be most "effective" with their time!

 

[FuzzySpider]

Interesting about the special items... And if people are trying as hard as they can to get to "Level 3" to get one of these items, are they going to do it in Solo or Open? In which one will they be most "effective" with their time!

Neither seem inherently more or less effective as far as powerplay is concerned. It's much like we have now. For example Archon Delaines expansion missions have you destroying resistance forces in systems (and maybe that will include authority vessels). Li yong-Rui has you running Corporate Contracts into other systems it intends to expand into, and so on.

Yes, I see some mentions of (for example) conflict zones, and the way things are set up those conflict zones favour Solo. But that's a problem of respawning mechanics inside of CZs, not any inherent problem of Solo vs Open, and it should be addressed as such.

Overall, saying that Powerplay favours one side over another is a complete non-argument at this point.

 

[SteveLaw]

Can you see the problem? People are going to flip from faction to faction, grind to rating 3, leave, and collect all of these goodies.

Hmm. What are leaving/defection penalties?

As for the leaderboard, that's just going to fuel the separate galaxy argument no doubt as it goes against the "Solo takes care of Solo" thing.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Hmm. What are leaving/defection penalties?

As for the leaderboard, that's just going to fuel the separate galaxy argument no doubt as it goes against the "Solo takes care of Solo" thing.

The faction penalties - as of right now if you leave a faction you can't join another for 0.5 days (that will likely be expanded when it hits full release though). If you defect members of the faction you have defected from will attack you for a while on sight.

EDIT: Ohh one other little thing about this update - ignore what people are saying about the Diamondback. It's a Cobra sized monster.

 

[SteveLaw]

The faction penalties - as of right now if you leave a faction you can't join another for 0.5 days (that will likely be expanded when it hits full release though). If you defect members of the faction you have defected from will attack you for a while on sight.

EDIT: Ohh one other little thing about this update - ignore what people are saying about the Diamondback. It's a Cobra sized monster.

I've just read the thread discussing this. FD seem to have muddied their own intentions on this one. I'm almost ready to call for separate servers myself.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

There is a GIGANTIC flaw in Powerplay (which hardly anyone has talked about), which does make the game very PvP centric but not in a way that anyone has anticipated or even wanted. There are basically 5 ratings you get with each faction. For rating 1 you just have to join. For rating 2 you have to get 100 merits. But from then on you have to be in the top 50%, 25% and then for the top rating you have to be in the top 10 players. That's right folks, in Powerplay your biggest competitors are not rival factions but the best members of your own faction. Not that this really factors into Solo/Open, as it favours grinding more than anything.

If you believe it to be such a major flaw, why not start a new topic about it and see if it gains traction rather than a single comment in a mega thread.

My counter to your arugment here is that any online game will favour those who invest more time into it. However, you do raise a valid concern in general.

 

[ExRex]

So I will probably not be reading the whole for coming up with this suggestion, but:

There currently exists a pretty big incentive to do a lot in Solo:
Bounty hunting CG solo makes it easier to get more bounties, CZ CG solo the same way and removes risk from getting pvp-ed, trading CG solo removes any pirate risk. All this makes it easier to reach the top 5% so the initial monetary rewards from solo as it is right now are much higher than in Open.
Other than reconfiguring the structure to allow better wings voucher and faction bonds benefits as well as stronger dividends, I was thinking that making credits in Solo in general should be nerfed strongly in terms of % slashes in commodity pricing, lesser bounties and lesser combat bonds. Yes it makes solo people having to grind more but in reality they just have to grind as much as people playing dedicatedly in open.

I have pretty much myself given up playing Bounty Hunting CG and CZ CG in open because of the fierce competition by people in a-rated vultures but would greatly rethink this if I would make more money from Open than in Solo.

jex out.

 

[FuzzySpider]

If you believe it to be such a major flaw, why not start a new topic about it and see if it gains traction rather than a single comment in a mega thread.

While I love FD and what they've done so far I have very little faith that they actually take on board anything said here. That is probably a good thing. This forum, like most game forums, is full of arm-chair developers with incredibly bad ideas. Speaking of which...

There currently exists a pretty big incentive to do a lot in Solo:
Bounty hunting CG solo makes it easier to get more bounties, CZ CG solo the same way and removes risk from getting pvp-ed, trading CG solo removes any pirate risk. All this makes it easier to reach the top 5% so the initial monetary rewards from solo as it is right now are much higher than in Open.
Other than reconfiguring the structure to allow better wings voucher and faction bonds benefits as well as stronger dividends, I was thinking that making credits in Solo in general should be nerfed strongly in terms of % slashes in commodity pricing, lesser bounties and lesser combat bonds. Yes it makes solo people having to grind more but in reality they just have to grind as much as people playing dedicatedly in open.

I have pretty much myself given up playing Bounty Hunting CG and CZ CG in open because of the fierce competition by people in a-rated vultures but would greatly rethink this if I would make more money from Open than in Solo.

There exists a pretty big incentive to do a lot in Open:
Player interactivity. Some people like playing with others, some prefer to play single player. Why should anyone who wants a single player experience be forced to play a nerfed game because you want to play with others? Solo, by definition, can't be an unfair advantage because that is available to everyone.

Secondly, how does that help immersion? This is supposed to be a universe which can seamlessly be played in any of the modes and feel like a real, dynamic universe. But here is an idea that would see people fly out from populated worlds, trade in Open for more money, switch back to Solo, and then fly back into those populus worlds again, because of game mechanics and not the game. That would drag me out of Elite and right into my living room.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

While I love FD and what they've done so far I have very little faith that they actually take on board anything said here. That is probably a good thing. This forum, like most game forums, is full of arm-chair developers with incredibly bad ideas.

As my mum always used to say, "If you don't ask, you don't get". I asked her for an Amiga for Christmas, i got a Commodore +4.

 

[FuzzySpider]

My counter to your arugment here is that any online game will favour those who invest more time into it. However, you do raise a valid concern in general.

Have a look at this post.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=147857&page=2&p=2283961&viewfull=1#post2283961

Mephane gives a more eloquent description than I can.

 

[ExRex]

Personally player interaction at CZ and RES is not a big incentive to me, not even an incentive, since every time I invite for a wing no one answers me. It is purely this (lack of) player interaction and lack of extra rewards in Open that drive me to Solo when there are CGs other than trading CGs (which are fun because of the extra risk). And it is also the results of Solo grinders that make me go "40%? Eh, good enough."

Secondly, since immersion is important to you, let me address it: it helps immersion by letting people stay in bloody open and NOT switch to solo. Your example of switching from solo to open is basically an example of what goes on right now and is not very constructive if we agree that the problem right now is exactly that.

Edit: just realized that you hinted at me being an arm chair-developer with bad ideas. Take that tone somewhere else, it belongs no where. Forums are here for constructive suggestions and critical stances on the same which I welcome by venturing my solutions.
Your hidden, snide and derogatory remarks on the other hand take us no where FAST!

While I love FD and what they've done so far I have very little faith that they actually take on board anything said here. That is probably a good thing. This forum, like most game forums, is full of arm-chair developers with incredibly bad ideas. Speaking of which...



There exists a pretty big incentive to do a lot in Open:
Player interactivity. Some people like playing with others, some prefer to play single player. Why should anyone who wants a single player experience be forced to play a nerfed game because you want to play with others? Solo, by definition, can't be an unfair advantage because that is available to everyone.

Secondly, how does that help immersion? This is supposed to be a universe which can seamlessly be played in any of the modes and feel like a real, dynamic universe. But here is an idea that would see people fly out from populated worlds, trade in Open for more money, switch back to Solo, and then fly back into those populus worlds again, because of game mechanics and not the game. That would drag me out of Elite and right into my living room.

 

[Cody]

<sighs> Oh dear!

 

[FuzzySpider]

Your example of switching from solo to open is basically an example of what goes on right now and is not very constructive if we agree that the problem right now is exactly that.

I prefer to call that a feature, not a problem. I think it's a pretty good and innovative feature of the game that enables me to avoid the pitfalls of multiplayer (idiots, griefers etc), while at the same time enjoying multiplayer when I can.

I wouldn't change it one bit if I were FD.

EDIT: My armchair developer comment was more directed at the forum as a whole (look at some of the posts regarding the Diamondback for example). I certainly do think the idea to penalize players for wanting to play single player is a terrible idea though. Especially when you consider the backlash against the no-offline mode. If FD want to see almost their entire old-time userbase turn hostile they should do just that.