Ships Fdevs: The FdL is an "Explorer" Ship Too

[who?]

Apart from the extreme boundaries of the galaxy, I am not sure which places you are talking about. People have traveled across the galaxy in an Orca and a Type 9, just for giggles. If you wanted to argue that you travel in a straighter line when you have a longer jump range and therefore can make a "shorter" path between any 2 points, then you might be on to something in the more sparse regions. But that difference will be smaller the closer you are to the galactic plane or the center of the galaxy, where stars are much more densely packed.

There are certainly areas around the fringes where longer jump ranges can open up huge shortcuts - I'm on the outer edge of the Perseus arm at the moment, and to get to the New Outer Arm I could go straight across the Rift (if I had a >30Ly jump range, I don't) or take a 8 or 9KLy diversion around via where the star systems are more densely grouped.

But that's not really what I'm talking about. When you go a distance above/down below the galactic plane, the stars start to thin out dramatically (at NGC 7822 it gets very sparse, that's around 300Ly up, I'm now at NGC 281 which is 900 Ly down, and again it's very empty down there). Even with a reasonable 29Ly jump range, I've found many systems with just one reachable system in range - the one I just jumped from. There are probably many systems (and "features" such as nebulae) which simply aren't reachable without a big jump range.

Again, I'm not saying the DB shouldn't have a bigger fuel scoop, I'd love if it did - as long as it doesn't match/exceed the Asp. If you make a craft that matches the Asp's exploring ability, but with greater speed/manoeuvrability/combat ability then no one would buy the Asp. The only point I'm making is jump range is very important. I'd take a long jumper/slow scooper any day of the week instead of a fast scooper/short jumper. Of course ideally, I'd like a long scooper, and fast scooper. This is just the Beta, there's still plenty time for some DB tweaks.

 

[Kyokushin]

I am sure people did it already in an FDL.

One confirmed. Me

 

[ASC]

Let's do a little math. When the Diamondback is stripped down for a 27LY range jump, the Diamondback is no faster at getting around the bubble than any other stripped down ship with a +20LY range.

Diamondback with 27 LY jump range: 10s witch space loading screen + 16s refuel timer = 26s per jump

FdL with 20LY jump range: 10s witch space loading screen + 10s FSD cooldown = 20s per jump

Cobra with 25LY jump range: 10s witch space loading screen + 10s FSD cooldown = 20s per jump

Sorry, but these numbers are just wrong. 10 seconds for a hyperspace jump?

In my Asp it's 15 seconds FSD charging, 5 seconds countdown and 15 seconds in hyperspace. That's 35 seconds. With the FSD cooldown on top of that, the fastest that I can do a jump is about 44 seconds.

I think you are badly overestimating the impact of the Diamondback's extra scooping time.

 

[Mysturji]

Let's do a little math. When the Diamondback is stripped down for a 27LY range jump, the Diamondback is no faster at getting around the bubble than any other stripped down ship with a +20LY range.

Diamondback with 27 LY jump range: 10s witch space loading screen + 16s refuel timer = 26s per jump

FdL with 20LY jump range: 10s witch space loading screen + 10s FSD cooldown = 20s per jump

Cobra with 25LY jump range: 10s witch space loading screen + 10s FSD cooldown = 20s per jump


Jumping 50 LY:

DB: 2 jumps = 52s
FdL: 3 jumps = 60s
Cobra: 2 jumps = 40s


Jumping 100 LY:

DB: 4 jumps = 104s
FdL: 5 jumps = 100s
Cobra: 4 jumps = 80s

Jumping 200 LY:
DB: 8 jumps = 208s
FdL: 10 jumps = 200s
Cobra: 8 jumps = 160s

Jumping 1,000 LY

DB: ~37 Jumps = 16 mins
FdL: ~50 Jumps = 16.6 mins
Cobra: ~40 Jumps = 13 mins

Jumping 25,000 LY (ideally with no hiccups bathroom breaks, brown dwarfs, or scans)

DB: ~7hrs
FdL: ~7hrs
Cobra:~5.5hrs

The more you run into brown dwarfs and other unscoopable stars, the worse it gets for DB because the longer scoop time overruns the FSD cooldown by a larger amount.

So now we see that the DB is no better than the FdL at exploration. Worse actually because you see about 80% of the systems in the same about of time and spend that time fuel scooping instead. The FdL is a notoriously slow ship for getting around the bubble, and FdL pilots have been crying for months for a buff to jump range. Little did they know that they are in fact "combat-explorers" with class 5 fuel scoops.

I don't know where or how you got those times.
Last I checked (not that long ago) every hyperspace jump took me about 45 secs, regardless of ship (Cobra, Sidewinder, Asp, T6, T7, Vulture & Python) or jump distance. That's the time from hitting "H", to hitting "H" again as soon as the FSD has cooled down. Scooping obviously adds to that time (usually).

 

[Ziljan]

It sounds like hyperspace jump time might vary quite a bit by computer specs and Internet connection speed. In any case, the extra jump times will effect all the ships and adjust all of the numbers upwards. The scoop times were idealized for pilots who are adept at scooping every type of star efficiently. If anything, the scoop times are are shorter than they should be as well. I did some testing on different ships last night, and a more realistic scooping time (adjusting for different corona sizes and dive times) is more like 20-30 seconds for scooping 3T of fuel with class 3A fuel scoop. I'll rework with the numbers with the higher estimates, but I can already tell they are going to similarly bad for the Diamondback.


In any case it looks like FD updated some info on the DB and we'll have our answer very soon!

 

[Matzov]

It sounds like hyperspace jump time might vary quite a bit by computer specs and Internet connection speed. In any case, the extra jump times will effect all the ships and adjust all of the numbers upwards. The scoop times were idealized for pilots who are adept at scooping every type of star efficiently. If anything, the scoop times are are shorter than they should be as well. I did some testing on different ships last night, and a more realistic scooping time (adjusting for different corona sizes and dive times) is more like 20-30 seconds for scooping 3T of fuel with class 3A fuel scoop. I'll rework with the numbers with the higher estimates, but I can already tell they are going to similarly bad for the Diamondback.


In any case it looks like FD updated some info on the DB and we'll have our answer very soon!

Correct me if I am wrong, but from your posts on other threads, you do not appear to be a beta backer, so how are you testing the DB?
--
I am not a beta backer, and from what I have seen of the DB, it is not the best pure explorer, which is not really a surprise seeing as its price is looking like it will be between 600k and 1.2m. Nor is it supposed to be a pure explorer from what we read. So, the question really is whether you can find another ship for a similar or less price, that can get similar jump range along with a good weapon load out. Personally, I don't really think time is a big issue, as there are so many variables as to time taken, from real life events to the number and distance of objects in a system.

 

[puca]

So, the question really is whether you can find another ship for a similar or less price, that can get similar jump range along with a good weapon load out.

Yes: cobra. Much better scoop and distributor, too.

 

[Matzov]

Yes: cobra. Much better scoop and distributor, too.

Well, I have done a significant trip in a lightly-armed Cobra, so I know the cost and spec well. I will be interested to see build comparisons on EDShipyard, when the DB is finalised. Until then, I imagine it is in a degree of flux.

 

[Zeeman]

Just for the record, the Buckyball Sag* standings. Note that nothing has broken 9hrs 30 mins, let alone 6hrs or less...

Z...

 

[Ziljan]

Looks like Devs answered the question in the most recent patch note updates. They are no longer calling it an "explorer" ship, and have changed the name to Diamondback Scout. The internals are the same class 3. Looks like we lost this one. Very dissapointed, but at least now FD is being intellectually honest and not claiming this is an "explorer" ship anymore.

Maybe we'll get an actual explorer in a future update?

 

[Ekol Tieja]

Maybe we'll get an actual explorer in a future update?

I'm kinda hoping that there will be two Diamondbacks now:
The cheap starter karter scout and another WAY more expensive Diamondback-spin, that can rival an Asp.

 

[who?]

Looks like Devs answered the question in the most recent patch note updates. They are no longer calling it an "explorer" ship, and have changed the name to Diamondback Scout. The internals are the same class 3. Looks like we lost this one. Very dissapointed, but at least now FD is being intellectually honest and not claiming this is an "explorer" ship anymore.

Maybe we'll get an actual explorer in a future update?

Mind if I ask, what do you mean by "actual explorer"? A "super Asp"? A weapon-less, cargo-less long-jumper, fast scooper?

 

[Ziljan]

Mind if I ask, what do you mean by "actual explorer"? A "super Asp"? A weapon-less, cargo-less long-jumper, fast scooper?

A super asp would be nice, but that isn't what I mean at all. I am simply talking about a ship that can get from A to B faster than most ships currently in the game. That is a big part of what jump range is for: speed. As for gimping ships for specialized roles, I am not one of those people who thinks that any ship should be stuck with one load-out. If the internal can fit from a first person view as seen inside a ship (which looks like the FDev constraint for future expansions), then it should be allowed. That being said, my own view of an explorer would be one that is brimming with class 1 and class 2 slots for multiple types of scanners. Scanners which don't exist yet in the game. It would be primarily a science ship, but it could also be a decent military spy ship. It would have a 35-45 jump range and would have some way (speed, strong hull, etc) to escape being killed by greifers when returning to human space. Or even by assassins in Sgr A*. This last role is oddly filled by the DBS, but the extra hours spent scooping are a hefty price to pay for a little security and the extra risk of being mass locked before you can jump away.

 

[puca]

If you asked me to design a decent explorer at the 10-20 mil price point, I could do it based around a class 4 FSD. No problem! Just ask!

 

[Ziljan]

If you asked me to design a decent explorer at the 10-20 mil price point, I could do it based around a class 4 FSD. No problem! Just ask!

I'd like to hear it

 

[who?]

A super asp would be nice, but that isn't what I mean at all. I am simply talking about a ship that can get from A to B faster than most ships currently in the game. That is a big part of what jump range is for: speed. As for gimping ships for specialized roles, I am not one of those people who thinks that any ship should be stuck with one load-out. If the internal can fit from a first person view as seen inside a ship (which looks like the FDev constraint for future expansions), then it should be allowed. That being said, my own view of an explorer would be one that is brimming with class 1 and class 2 slots for multiple types of scanners. Scanners which don't exist yet in the game. It would be primarily a science ship, but it could also be a decent military spy ship. It would have a 35-45 jump range and would have some way (speed, strong hull, etc) to escape being killed by greifers when returning to human space. Or even by assassins in Sgr A*. This last role is oddly filled by the DBS, but the extra hours spent scooping are a hefty price to pay for a little security and the extra risk of being mass locked before you can jump away.

Fair enough. I would love to see more specialised craft (dedicated explorers, salvage vessels, stealth/spy craft, carrier vessels etc.) but as you say I'd hope they can still have some outfitting flexibility. And that flexibility doesn't bork the game balance - e.g. they make an explorer with lots of modules for scanners, but someone fits loads of shield boosters instead and this ship becomes an a tank that makes other combat craft obsolete.. Or some trader realises the explorer's range makes it far better than rares trading than all the specialist traders..

 

[Kuroshio]

Just out of curiosity - am I the only one who always scans the primary while exploring? Never timed it, but waiting for it to appear as a target plus scan time does take a moment...

 

[Ekol Tieja]

Just out of curiosity - am I the only one who always scans the primary while exploring? Never timed it, but waiting for it to appear as a target plus scan time does take a moment...

I do too. I target the star, move in to scoop and then look over system map, while refueling. Talk about efficiency..

 

[Ziljan]

Just out of curiosity - am I the only one who always scans the primary while exploring? Never timed it, but waiting for it to appear as a target plus scan time does take a moment...

I do this sometimes, but only once I get outside of the human bubble, or if I am not trying to go someplace like a nebula or a distant CG quickly. Star scanning accounts for ~20% of my exploration. Scanning quickly while refueling is tricky though because you have to point at the star while getting to a fast enough scoop rate, and if you don't take your time and watch your temps, you can burn up quickly. It also slows down your jump to the next star dramatically because of slow scan time and time spent relocking to the next jump location.

So no, I guess the answer is not really, lol. I like to jump into the black find a good spot and then start scanning and then quickly jump back again. That is not something the DBS is designed for. So I guess I am stuck in my lumbering Asp for the time being.

 

[Kuroshio]

I looked it up, it's 15 seconds minimum for the scan. (Plus the wait for it to appear.) With that, the DBS becomes somewhat competitive if you, you know, explore on the way.

See, that's what I meant with "different maths for different play styles" in the other thread. I still am skeptical about the DBS, I like to have room for a small cargo hold or an AFMU (and I think puca's proposals make a lot of sense). But for my playstyle (with fewer money, pre-Asp), it wouldn't have been that bad.

But I happily concede that it doesn't work for racing or rushing to the next neutron field.

And I'm stuck in that lumbering thing as well. I love it, but it might be Stockholm's.