Aaaaand this is why I don't play Open Play - and possibly ED

[louthelou]

Let's see if I can manage to do this without violating a rule and getting this thread locked or deleted. Here goes nothin'.
.
First off, a little history. I started playing back near the end of beta, so I've been around for a little bit. When I first started, I played Open Play exclusively. After all, that's one of the major features of this game, the ability to play with other people. I got killed a few times, but everyone was still in crappy, new ships, so it didn't matter. Nothing really mattered, because learning was what was important, and starting over was no big deal.
.
Then I started trading, and after a while, dying would end up costing me hours of work (between rebuy and cost of haul), and knowing how people are, I could not accept this risk, so I went to solo/private group to get some trading done in peace. Well, I became addicted to not dying while flying a defenseless ship, and worked my way all the way up to an okay-ish Anaconda (a little over 200m). Nothing to write home about, but after days and days of flying Type-Xs, it was awesome.
.
So, my brother and I decide to play together. I make the decision to play in Open Play - my first mistake. I jump out to him, we head out for a RES. There are a couple other players in-system, but they're all apparently clean. We're almost to the RES, and I get interdicted by an Orca. I submit, it's a player. He deploys but doesn't fire, so I figure he's scanning me; I have no bounties, so I'm not worried. My brother drops to me just as I'm jumping out; I tell him to jump back out. Dude starts attacking him just before he jumps out - and my brother is only in a basic Cobra. After some running around, I finally get sick of playing, and engage him. He springs the trap (silent running, heat sinks, upgraded hull, ram and guns). I jump out, he catches up, kills me.
.
No cargo. No bounties. He didn't get anything out of the engagement except the enjoyment of killing a "noob" in an Anaconda (for the record, I'm not completely stupid; I had my rebuy cost).
.
But that's not even the issue. It's that the criminal justice system in this game is pathetic. Report crimes against me? Useless. The guy MURDERED me. And what will the cops do about it? "SCAN DETECTED... Just murder, no illegal cargo? Move along." Just... no.
.
Ultima Online, the first MMO, had a better justice system than this game. Five kills of innocent players, and you turned Red, meaning you were Killed On Sight by town guards until you turned Blue again - eight hours per kill, making you town-less for FORTY HOURS of playtime. There is nothing even close to that here. Bounties? Please. A bounty is as much of a deterrent to people who get their kicks ruining other people's fun as a piece of paper is to an asteroid.
.
"Name of the game, noob. You're dangerous. *whips off Aviators*" Oh yeah? Dangerous to who? Because from what I can see, the game is only dangerous as long as you, yourself, are not part of the danger. The moment you stop seeing your fellow players as potential allies and start seeing them as prey, you minimize their ability to prey on you.
.
But you know what? I don't really want to play a game where I have to assume that everyone is going to kill me just because they can do so with a minimum of consequences, when it has taken me literally days, weeks to get where I am. I mean really. A bounty, for murdering someone, possibly eliminating days or weeks of work in a matter of seconds - and that's IT!?

 

[Obtuse]

I take it you haven't read the bounty update.......

 

[b0rg9]

As a new player to this game I'm hearing way too much of this. Open play sounds awful unless combat's your thing. Or creative defense.

I got turned onto this game via an article in MaximumPC. They went out of their way to say that if you were inclined to moves you'd have a prohibitive bounty on your ass. It seems to me, on first impression, that that bounty is more worn as a badge of honor than anything.

 

[louthelou]

I take it you haven't read the bounty update.......

You mean this?
.
Updated bounty system

• Bounties cannot be paid off (Pilot's Fed contact is gone!), but expire after 7 days.
• Major factions don't record crimes anymore, only minor factions. (You may have major faction stuff in your saves left over from the previous system).
• Fines now take 7 days to expire, but never coexist with bounties (bounties absorb fines and dormant bounties with the same faction).
• Expiry only actually happens when you login, hyperspace or resurrect. (This stops cases of "I attacked a wanted ship that had no bounty a few seconds ago")
• Friendly fire values relaxed

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That's taken from the 1.3 Beta Incoming post, and unfortunately, that doesn't address my issues with the system. My concerns would only be addressed if there were an additional line that read something like, "Players with fines/bounties over xxxx will be attacked on sight by relevant NPCs"

 

[Cmdr Zach]

Don't see how the bounty update is going to stop anyone killing players for the lolz.

 

[Obtuse]

Its not 7 days anymore till you hit a certain threshold now (murder takes you to the threshold) and no it won't stop them the first time, but after that they have a 7 day cd to where they have to take a big risk coming after you in those same systems again.

 

[Super_Duty]

We need the play by play... how did it go down?

 

[salad]

Turning red would be cool..

Flying in space for forty hours until you become blue da ba dee da ba die...

 

[Deleted member 94277]

Honestly, stick to group/solo. From my experiences in EVE and other MMOs, this kind of thing will never change and unless you learn to live with it, then don't stress yourself. I can't bother to trade for anything, for example. I simply cannot. I raised my rank to Dealer and I'll only touch it again when I have enough credits to literally farm it.

 

[Valethar]

I have to chuckle at comparisons that put ED up against WoW, UO and other MMORPGs.

ED isn't an MMORPG. It's a Sim. It may have some elements that appear in an RPG or other sub-genre, but that inclusion doesn't automagically change the game by their presence.

Ultima Online, the first MMO

Patently false. Not only was UO not the first MMO, it wasn't even the first MMORPG.

While I can understand being upset because you got ganked, PK'd or whatever term is currently in fashion these days, part of that anger is due to your own misconceptions. That said, since you're stuck on the RPG thing, you have to treat Open Play like a PvP server in an MMORPG. Your presence on that PvP server was by choice, not because you were forced there. When you chose to play in a PvP environment, you accepted and acknowledged the possibility that you could end up on the losing end of a fight. On a PvP server, unless there is a specific ruleset that prohibits it (rare, but it does happen) you're a target that anyone can 'kill' simply because you exist and they want to kill you.

If you don't want to participate in PvP, you play on a PvE server. In this case, you select either Group or Solo play, depending on how much of a loner you want to be. If you don't ever want to see another player, you play Solo. If you want to be able to interact with other players, but mitigate the chances of being attacked by them, you choose a group. However, being in Group in ED isn't the same as being on a PvE server in WoW or UO. Remember, this is a Sim, not an RPG, and there is no such thing as a pure PvE server in this particular Sim. People in Group can also attack you, just like they can in Open. The difference is that you get to choose whom you play with, and as such can control to some degree the chances of unwanted PvP.

There are always going to be people who's sole purpose in playing is to RPK as many people as they possibly can. To them, it's fun, to their victims, it's not. It's always been that way in open world games that don't restrict combat, and it will always be that way. The only way to avoid them is by not putting yourself in a position to be victimized by them.

 

[X-Terminator]

In Open it really is just not fair to a player to be harressed by others in a zone they chose to expoloit others without being fair at all when all we wanted was to carry on our own business. D.B. calls it "a social experiment". Well on Earth we call it harassment.You do not get a fair fight against these idiots and it's all over in under 30secs. Who would call unproked no gain attacks as fun doing that but idiots!
FD should have made clear provisions for PvP Pirates. Why would they need to destroy a ship without gains?
Answer is: let PvP play as Navy/Security in loaned ships. Make Pirating PvP rules of Space same as rules of the Sea i.e. they do not get all phsycho but put forward their demands. If they destroy a ship they get added to the Assasination Missions plus cops go out and chase them in Wings! That is more real.

 

[louthelou]

Patently false. Not only was UO not the first MMO, it wasn't even the first MMORPG.

Not to get off-topic, but yes it was; everything else before that was a MUD, not an MMORPG. UO was the first MMORPG, and EQ was the first 3D MMORPG.
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But, I accept the danger. What I want is some danger for THEM. Dangerous for me because I might get killed, dangerous for them because they might be attracting unwanted attention (i.e. the authorities). As it stands now, that "unwanted attention" is easily ignored, and that won't be fixed in 1.3.

 

[Valethar]

Not to get off-topic, but yes it was; everything else before that was a MUD, not an MMORPG. UO was the first MMORPG, and EQ was the first 3D MMORPG.

Again, patently false.

If you want it to be dangerous for them, people have to start learning to defend themselves, and/or start hunting the PKs. I don't think there's ever going to be a system in place that will create a level of danger for PK's that will make everyone happy. At some point it's going to require human intervention, because the AI isn't robust enough to do it alone.

 

[Araviel]

Patently false. Not only was UO not the first MMO, it wasn't even the first MMORPG.

he,, UO will always still be the first MMO even though that is completely false, no point in argue

 

[Nonya]

Summary: This game isn't FAIR!

I take serious umbrage with anyone - particularly politicians - throwing around the word "fair" when it comes to anything.
Anyone playing ED has exactly the same opportunities to do anything in the game anyone else can.
Don't like dying when trading? Gear up a Python or 'Conda and fight back. Or go to a PvE group. Or play Solo. Or any combination of those - and more!
The possibilities for you to NOT get reavered(tm) in this game are endless.

Life in Elite Dangerous is hard. Wear a helmet. I sure do.

And remember, just like Jack Reacher once said "You asked for this" when you decided to try to fight that Orca instead of just staying away from it.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Arguing over which MMO was first, like it matters now ?

Bottom line is that OP has a point - there is zero incentive not to kill your fellow pilots and the new "updated" criminal rules are not strong enough - 7 days with a bounty, like they're going to care. The only saving grace is that the AI has been beefed up and could start to present a threat to murderers, but we shall see.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Let's see if I can manage to do this without violating a rule and getting this thread locked or deleted. Here goes nothin'.
.
First off, a little history. I started playing back near the end of beta, so I've been around for a little bit. When I first started, I played Open Play exclusively. After all, that's one of the major features of this game, the ability to play with other people. I got killed a few times, but everyone was still in crappy, new ships, so it didn't matter. Nothing really mattered, because learning was what was important, and starting over was no big deal.
.
Then I started trading, and after a while, dying would end up costing me hours of work (between rebuy and cost of haul), and knowing how people are, I could not accept this risk, so I went to solo/private group to get some trading done in peace. Well, I became addicted to not dying while flying a defenseless ship, and worked my way all the way up to an okay-ish Anaconda (a little over 200m). Nothing to write home about, but after days and days of flying Type-Xs, it was awesome.
.
So, my brother and I decide to play together. I make the decision to play in Open Play - my first mistake. I jump out to him, we head out for a RES. There are a couple other players in-system, but they're all apparently clean. We're almost to the RES, and I get interdicted by an Orca. I submit, it's a player. He deploys but doesn't fire, so I figure he's scanning me; I have no bounties, so I'm not worried. My brother drops to me just as I'm jumping out; I tell him to jump back out. Dude starts attacking him just before he jumps out - and my brother is only in a basic Cobra. After some running around, I finally get sick of playing, and engage him. He springs the trap (silent running, heat sinks, upgraded hull, ram and guns). I jump out, he catches up, kills me.
.
No cargo. No bounties. He didn't get anything out of the engagement except the enjoyment of killing a "noob" in an Anaconda (for the record, I'm not completely stupid; I had my rebuy cost).
.
But that's not even the issue. It's that the criminal justice system in this game is pathetic. Report crimes against me? Useless. The guy MURDERED me. And what will the cops do about it? "SCAN DETECTED... Just murder, no illegal cargo? Move along." Just... no.
.
Ultima Online, the first MMO, had a better justice system than this game. Five kills of innocent players, and you turned Red, meaning you were Killed On Sight by town guards until you turned Blue again - eight hours per kill, making you town-less for FORTY HOURS of playtime. There is nothing even close to that here. Bounties? Please. A bounty is as much of a deterrent to people who get their kicks ruining other people's fun as a piece of paper is to an asteroid.
.
"Name of the game, noob. You're dangerous. *whips off Aviators*" Oh yeah? Dangerous to who? Because from what I can see, the game is only dangerous as long as you, yourself, are not part of the danger. The moment you stop seeing your fellow players as potential allies and start seeing them as prey, you minimize their ability to prey on you.
.
But you know what? I don't really want to play a game where I have to assume that everyone is going to kill me just because they can do so with a minimum of consequences, when it has taken me literally days, weeks to get where I am. I mean really. A bounty, for murdering someone, possibly eliminating days or weeks of work in a matter of seconds - and that's IT!?

You were killed in an Anaconda by a player in an Orca?

Why didn't you just frameshift out again? Or select any nearby star and jump away? Did you have shields? Did you put 4 pips to SYS? Did you have chaff? Did you switch to silent running once your shields dropped? Did you have heat sink ejectors? Did you switch a wing beacon on to allow your wingman to drop in and help?


Because it sounds like you got flustered having a player actually attack you, so your brain froze up a bit... and you didn't put in place anything effective to counter the attack.

There are three ways you can go here.


1. Avoid Open Play, and never put yourself in a position where you can be attacked by a player.
2. Reluctantly tiptoe around in open, gain little experience, and get flustered on the occasions you come up against a non-NPC hostile.
3. Get out of a ridiculously expensive ship, get into Open Play in something totally and utterly affordable, and engage other players.

Options 1 and 3 are the good choices. Only option 2 will lead to frustration and annoyance.

Go for #1 or #3... either one is good, just with very different gameplay experiences awaiting you.


Note: Option #1 doesn't have to be "Open Play or Bust". There are other ways to play, such as the Mobius PvE group.

 

[SirAdelaide]

You had insurance, so why complain?

Not everyone will survive every encounter. You lost this time. Next time you won't fall for the same trick. Don't you think it would be boring if everything was predictable?

BTW you probably made the Orca guy's evening. It is better to give than to receive, so try to feel happy about increasing someone else's fun.

 

[Mister5150]

Forgive if I interpreted this incorrectly, your brother was in a basic cobra and your attacker was in a kitted orca and you were the "noob" in an anaconda?

 

[Surround]

Can someone tell me how big is the bounty if you kill a player? I mean in 1.3.

Or is It the same pathetic 6000cr?