Supercruise - Why?

[Deleted member 94277]

Here is the very first official reference to what could be termed the birth of SuperCruise... a discussion item about "Point Of Interest" (POI) based game architecture... April 2013...
(...)
There's a lot to be learned by jumping through the "Frontier icon" (top right) developer posts in that thread!

So, supercruise was actually a compromise by FDev so they could give player the asked 'manual flight'? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that their idea was a point-to-point system of travel where, if one was exploring, he would hypertravel to a scanned POI or send a probe beforehand, but since players wanted the opportunity to travel, manualy, through the galaxy, they gave us supercruise. So, our own SpaceTruck Simulator is actually what people wanted? Wow.

As I said, I would be okay with it if it was realistic. No FLT sightseeing and that would be okay. The way it is right now is just... wrong.

 

[Deleted member 94277]

The alternative offered at the time:

- Open your map
- Hot spots appear on them
- Click to "jump" to it
- You fly around normal space only

Is that what you would have preferred ?

That was FD's original idea - hot spots which meant no "freedom" to roam - and the DDF at the time unanimously said no thanks so FD came back with Super Cruise.

You're welcome

Players wanted to roam free through the galaxy, but the devs wanted a EVEesque style of travel, right? But, instead of a true FTL free roam you guys settled with a quasi-free-roam in a utter unrealistic setting, without combat, without any direct interaction outside of normal space, with still POI-style travelling? Instead a single, cohesive, system of travelling, the community accepted a half baked solution. Gee, thanks, DDF. Way to go.

 

[Antmax]

So, supercruise was actually a compromise by FDev so they could give player the asked 'manual flight'? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that their idea was a point-to-point system of travel where, if one was exploring, he would hypertravel to a scanned POI or send a probe beforehand, but since players wanted the opportunity to travel, manualy, through the galaxy, they gave us supercruise. So, our own SpaceTruck Simulator is actually what people wanted? Wow.

As I said, I would be okay with it if it was realistic. No FLT sightseeing and that would be okay. The way it is right now is just... wrong.

You probably wouldn't like the old games. Only the first one had arcade dogfight type combat. Later games in the series had time acceleration and realistic flight where combat was mostly jousting over thousands of km since you had to slow down, turn and accelerate etc. You might have had better atmospheric combat only computers were too slow for playable framerate.

They couldn't really have accelerated time like the old games because that was single player and this is multi.

ED just isn't going to suit everyone but some will endure supercruise for the fun combat. The majority of players do seem to like supercruise though. They just generally want more to do in the game.

 

[DamnTheseVoices]

The way it is right now is just... wrong.

I respect your opinion, and although SC is something you obviously hate, it is something I love dearly as do others. It's tough to please everyone and I'm sure there are may other aspects you ED you'll find you love that I or others dislike.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Players wanted to roam free through the galaxy, but the devs wanted a EVEesque style of travel, right? But, instead of a true FTL free roam you guys settled with a quasi-free-roam in a utter unrealistic setting, without combat, without any direct interaction outside of normal space, with still POI-style travelling? Instead a single, cohesive, system of travelling, the community accepted a half baked solution. Gee, thanks, DDF. Way to go.

And here I was, thinking you really were here simply to ask "why?".

That took some real time and effort to retrieve from the archaeological DDA dig, ya know.


Way to go with the Fox News soundbiteization of a complex, interesting and illuminating set of historical reference material. Over to you, Hannity.

 

[Deleted member 94277]

You probably wouldn't like the old games. Only the first one had arcade dogfight type combat. Later games in the series had time acceleration and realistic flight where combat was mostly jousting over thousands of km since you had to slow down, turn and accelerate etc. You might have had better atmospheric combat only computers were too slow for playable framerate.

They couldn't really have accelerated time like the old games because that was single player and this is multi.

ED just isn't going to suit everyone but some will endure supercruise for the fun combat. The majority of players do seem to like supercruise though. They just generally want more to do in the game.

Honestly, I don't care much for anything else. I know that it's impossible to be realistic in everything, I get that. It's just that I dislike travelling at superluminal speeds as if they were subluminal; I dislike travelling at + 50 c and still being able to look out my cockpit window. That's simply unreal and unimmersive to me.

On a side note, maybe it's just me but this conversation is making me see that this game would benefit greatly of being single player offline only.

 

[NooneYouKnow]

The way it is right now is just... wrong.

Says who? As far as I know, no one has traveled at superluminal velocity, so no one knows. Even Einstein and Hawking wouldn't know. You may see just fine because the photons that are rushing towards you are still hitting your retina. Or your head just might explode because of sensory overload. No-one knows. And anyone who says they do is full of it, all we have are theories. It's arrogant to think otherwise. So just accept a little fiction in your science-fiction game. SC is no more unrealistic than Discovery scanners or burst lasers.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Honestly, I don't care much for anything else. I know that it's impossible to be realistic in everything, I get that. It's just that I dislike travelling at superluminal speeds as if they were subluminal; I dislike travelling at + 50 c and still being able to look out my cockpit window. That's simply unreal and unimmersive to me.

On a side note, maybe it's just me but this conversation is making me see that this game would benefit greatly of being single player offline only.

Have you checked out X3:Terran Conflict / Albion Prelude?

That's a single-player, gate-based space game. From a "you are the pilot, flying" perspective, it's rather lacking, but it got really engrossing. You have to have a high tolerance for "UI From Hell" developer approach, though!

 

[Deleted member 94277]

And here I was, thinking you really were here simply to ask "why?".

That took some real time and effort to retrieve from the archaeological DDA dig, ya know.


Way to go with the Fox News soundbiteization of a complex, interesting and illuminating set of historical reference material. Over to you, Hannity.

No, it was an honest question. I'm not trolling or anything and I'm sorry if I sounded ungrateful or arrogant, you gave me a really informative comment and I thank you for that. I wanted an answer and you guys gave me. The community spoke then and it speaks now. Obviously I strongly disagree with most players, but I know when I'm overruled (not that I had any chance of not being so in the first place ) and it's clear that to keep playing ED I'll just have to get used to it.

Thanks everyone.

EDIT:

Have you checked out X3:Terran Conflict / Albion Prelude?

That's a single-player, gate-based space game. From a "you are the pilot, flying" perspective, it's rather lacking, but it got really engrossing. You have to have a high tolerance for "UI From Hell" developer approach, though!

Yeah, I played X3:TC to hell and back, bought stations, the whole thing. One day somebody told me 'hey, check this game, it's like Mount&Blade in space!' and there went a few years of my life. But, as you said, the production values (and, let's be honest, design approach as a whole) was really lacking. After seeing all the pretty things in ED, I can hardly go back. :/

 

[Tarman]

No, it was an honest question. I'm not trolling or anything and I'm sorry if I sounded ungrateful or arrogant or y, you gave me a really informative comment and I thank you for that. I wanted an answer and you guys gave me. The community spoke then and it speaks now. Obviously I strongly disagree with most players, but I know when I'm overruled (not that I had any chance of not being so in the first place ) and it's clear that to keep playing ED I'll just have to get used to it.

Thanks everyone.

No matter what your preference for this specific issue, probably the most mental part of Elite is realizing many of its elements are partly controlled or locked from change by stuff even the designers can't do anything about anymore, let alone the players. P2P architecture has its own special kinds of fun, for example. We're never never going to get massive battles of ridiculous live player counts because it's just not doable with the connection systems we have.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Yeah, I played X3:TC to hell and back, bought stations, the whole thing. One day somebody told me 'hey, check this game, it's like Mount&Blade in space!' and there went a few years of my life. But, as you said, the production values (and, let's be honest, design approach as a whole) was really lacking. After seeing all the pretty things in ED, I can hardly go back. :/

Yep, I played that one until I'd done every conceivable thing I could think of! Every damn thing... which was A Lot of things.

I got through the Xenon Hub plot arc before they made the commodity delivery targets sane and rational (ie. 400 billion trillion tonnes of microchips, or something... lol). I captured (and sold) loads of mission-spawned capital ships before they shut down that little feature/exploit. I found the bugged Goner mega-ship in an unfocused-jump sector, captured it with marines, took it back to my massive player base, reverse-engineered it, and built my own working ship. Crazy crazy game.

...but, as I recall, the original time multiplier (SETA?) was so low that I grew a beard waiting to go places "in person".

There's no magic bullet for space travel in games, I reckon. What you gain on one hand, you lose on the other.

 

[C.O. Blackwood]

I feel like increasing the range you're able to exit supercruise to reach your destination would make it more bearable. Instead of having to reach 1Mm distance, you could exit at 1-5ls.

 

[Hell Razor5543]

I agree that SC does help to add to the game, but it can get boring. Due to the mechanics of the FSD you have to (in interstellar mode) jump towards the major stellar object in the target system, but I cannot see why this cannot be used in-system in a few circumstances. These would be for when the system in question has multiple stars, so the FSD (in interstellar mode again) can come into play. However, unless the target star is over a certain mass this cannot work.

 

[jabokai]

I would like to see the acceleration and deceleration sped up, the "gravity" effects lessened and an "autostop at destination" added. But it's a vital part of the game although I can understand why some would, inevitably, prefer the point to point thing.

 

[Zieman]

I honestly would like to ask the community why?

Answered already, but:

Supercruise was implemented to enable freeform travel in star-/planetary systems within reasonable timeframes in multiplayer environment.

If you're interested on how the current system came about, have a look at these :

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4809
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5143
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5443
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5669
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5710
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5728
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=38
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7892

 

[mossfoot]

You know, it's not hard to come up with an in game explanation for the way you can see in FTL. You already have similar explanations as to how we "hear" in space - its an in ship recreation/simulation to assist in spatial awareness.

Same thing is true for visuals. The cockpit "glass" doesn't just have a HUD projection on it, it recreates space while in Supercruise. Light might be limited, but clearly if we have FTL travel and instantaneous communication across light years then our radars are similarly fast. That data is processed and projected in the cockpit, allowing you to see the system in real time without the pesky speed of light limits.

Hell, this even explains why we see other ships as comets while in SC, but never see said comets when not in supercruise. They're added to be visual references.

It's an elegant explanation. Where this breaks down is when the canopy breaks and you still see space like that through the hole. Personally I'd have loved it if in those circumstances everything gets distorted as you reach c and whites out when you pass it, forcing you to rely on instruments... But that's just me.

Still, aside from that I sent instance my explanation makes as much sense as hearing sound in space, which nobody ever has a problem with.

 

[kapparomeo]

Instant teleport is a bad, counterproductive idea.

The problem is that whenever a space game actually does try to do what you say and streamline the travel part there's always a backlash from fickle players who decide that what they once called a "time-wasting busywork grind" is now an "integral experience of the exploratory spirit". As much as players complain about the waiting time between ports, just tapping menu buttons to warp into systems has even less engagement as the 'game' part becomes the rote routine instead of the 'travel' part. This is exactly what sank Star Control 3 back in the day, and even in more modern times as much as players moaned about the Mako buggy sections in Mass Effect they hated the simpler planet-scanning in Mass Effect 2 even morel.

 

[Drelthar]

Being able to see is a none issue. It would suck if you couldn't see... There are some basics where gameplay trumps realism let's not be silly. The mechanic is 100% needed. It allows interdiction, which is super fun, I makes piracy actually possible, it let's you zoom round/past planets and other stellar bodies in an amazing visual way, and if you need to realismise it, the previous elite used time dilation, (arguably less realistic as you'd reach your destination far into the future) this version can't do that because multiplayer makes it unworkable. People would be playing in multiple time streams and you'd never meet anyone. What happens here is you circumvent relativity by moving space around you instead of travelling through it. With the ability to do that, it's not that much of a stretch to see why you can see out the window. Your not moving, space is, so the light is already in the right place to be seen by your eyes.

Or if that's too weird, yeah, retinal implants linked to the ship sending a visual simulation of your surroundings.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Players wanted to roam free through the galaxy, but the devs wanted a EVEesque style of travel, right? But, instead of a true FTL free roam you guys settled with a quasi-free-roam in a utter unrealistic setting, without combat, without any direct interaction outside of normal space, with still POI-style travelling? Instead a single, cohesive, system of travelling, the community accepted a half baked solution. Gee, thanks, DDF. Way to go.

Players wanted total freedom to roam where they wanted but in a MP game that is not possible. Keeping everyone in the same time frame reference, and allowing for persuits and catching of people, meant certain compromises had to be made. As such supercruise was born - you wanted a realistic single player game (from your comments) and nothing that was used before (micro-jump / time compression) is possible in a MP game. FD wanted a MP game from the outset and this is what we have today.

FD always had final say in everything - the DDF was merely a discussion group, not a decision group - major difference.

Despite your snide reply to me, you're still welcome.

 

[Vasious]

Without super cruise I suspect I would still be flying to the second station where my Eagle was in LHS 3447 at sub-light speeds.