The Galaxy just got a little less realistic :/

It's interesting to ponder what real Newtonian combat would be like in space. If ships wanted to attack a station would they just gather up as much speed as they can, unload their payload while moving quite rapidly, and then just continue on at high speed? Sort of a hit and run strategy? "Dog fighting" would be like that old space arcade from the late 70s that I loved playing so much at the bowling alley - Space Wars - where you're flying past your opponent at high speed trying to time your shots to intersect his vector. Trying to dock at a station would be annoying - computer assist to make it more like flying in an atmosphere would be appreciated.

So I can totally understand why FD did away with much Newtonian motion for the purpose of dog fighting in ED.
 
Last edited:
Combat in a proper space environment would probably be so much hassle it wouldn't be worth the effort. I think the only reliable means of fighting would be using radar guided missiles shaped like a sphere with a rocket motor on every axis so it can turn and burn efficiently. A "missile" shaped missile would be pretty much useless unless what you were aiming at was incapable of manouevering. I guess a laser might work but you need line of sight and likely time for the laser to burn through a hull. assuming its simply not covered in a mirrored coating or something. Maybe a nuke would be effective if only to irradiate the crew if it explodes nearby.
 
Not arbitrary gameplay design, it is designed so to appease the PvP group who couldn't stand the idea that someone could get away from pew-pew if he/she so wanted. ;)

Well, also, if you actually had a game with newtonian dynamics, then weapons like we've got would be more or less pointless game-play. You'd just speed up and make a pass at your target then dispense a cloud of sand, and fly off. There wouldn't be any pew pew pew about better ships versus worse ships because the ship that would win would be the faster moving ship (that would generally be whichever one started speeding up longest ago). In C.J. Cherryh's rimrunner and chanur books, that would equate to having a battleship circling a system at some ridiculous speed, ready to drop a fast-moving rock on anything hostile that shows up - and it would be hit and destroyed before it had a chance to know what was happening.
 
I think it's important to distinguish between the galaxy sim and the combat sim. Clearly they galaxy is going for some level of realism, and of course the combat mechanic needs to make some concessions for understandable game play reasons. However the only explanation we are being given is some hand waving<Ahem> about politely slowing down so you can be shot in the back fair and square.

Who in their right mind would do such a thing? If they are going to dance on Newtons grave, they should at least provide a plausible excuse for suspending the laws of physics. Backstory people! A Lore based reason at the very least. Otherwise, we all have to lower our IQ to play the game, and that is something that I cannot sit by silently for.

And yes, I realize I am being an angry nerd right now... but I feel like it's for a good reason. There is enough misinformation and bad science out there, and lots of young kids will be playing this game, and getting the wrong idea about physics. Every scifi franchise makes some compromises, but the degree of wrongness matters to people like me because it shapes the next generation and what they'll try to build and accomplish.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
There is enough misinformation and bad science out there, and lots of young kids will be playing this game, and getting the wrong idea about physics. ..... because it shapes the next generation and what they'll try to build and accomplish.

LOL, come on, chill out. We grew up on Star Wars but learnt enough to understand that spaceships wouldn't fly like airplanes early on. You're trying to equate bad physics in a computer game with the downfall of the science in the next generation? That's quite a major leap of logic.

Better start also complaining about the flight models in games like X-Wing, Wing Commander, and oh, Star Citizen. :D :D :D
 
It's interesting to ponder what real Newtonian combat would be like in space. If ships wanted to attack a station would they just gather up as much speed as they can, unload their payload while moving quite rapidly, and then just continue on at high speed? Sort of a hit and run strategy?

Interesting that you should say that. I've read a few Star Wars novels that discussed fighting in space and one of the authors wrote about a battle where they did just that. They called them silent bombs where they'd cruise up to attack speed and then release the bomb with no propellant and simply open the bay door while slowing the ship down. The bomb would ease out of the ship at attack speed. With no propellant trail and no heat signature and black coating, it was nearly invisible.
 
Not sure which other post you're referring to. Please explain.

EDIT: Never mind I found it. Very disappointed in FD right now. I thought they were trying to make a realistic galaxy. But if inertia is considered an "exploit" I know who I'm dealing with now.

For the record, these posts...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=150542&p=2316713&viewfull=1#post2316713

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=150542&p=2317210&viewfull=1#post2317210


...which listed these unbelievably comprehensive threads on the topic...


https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44057

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=47988

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=45130

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28995

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43882

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43827


Who in their right mind would do such a thing? If they are going to dance on Newtons grave, they should at least provide a plausible excuse for suspending the laws of physics.

They did. Here you go:

We don't think the game is as big on realism as you're implying. The galaxy representation is pretty realistic sure but everything else is clearly romanticised science fiction so that we can make a game out of it. You can do a lot of things in real life that you shouldn't be able to in the game at all. You can do a lot of the things in the game that would be impossible in real life. Elite wouldn't exist as a game if we tried to make it 100% realistic or even 50% realistic.

There's your problem right there. I'm not trying to create a realistic experience. I'm trying to create a gamey but fair experience with a sprinkle of plausibility thrown in.


And then there's this gem. While this was ostensibly about yaw rate, Mike Evans takes a step back and gives us a good, honest, no-holds-barred viewpoint of the developer-end approach to Flight Model... finishing up with a comment about "realism".

Indeed, a request is just that. We don't have to do anything if we don't want to but that doesn't mean we didn't read and consider the request. Suffice to say a low yaw rate is a fundamental part of our games aesthetics and a corner stone to our flight model that we at frontier like the way it is. We're not changing it, for to do so would be to compromise our own vision for what Elite: Dangerous is and what it's going to be. I don't give a damn what all the other space games have done in the past, nor do I care that our yaw rates are apparently even slower than a plane's is (though every time I've tried doing a pure yaw turn in IL-2 I've stalled my plane before I got anything that even resembled a steady and fast turn rate). Fast yaw and pitch in a space game is a video game trope of the highest order along with banner arrows sliding around the screen and compasses telling you where to fly all the time. I'm almost certain that other developers just implement those features because they've been so prevalent rather than actually reassessing whether the game needed them or could be even better without them! We found for example that the compass that pointed you towards your target at all times made combat too easy to end in stalemate of circling. As soon as we tried removing it all of a sudden it was more exciting to fight someone because they could give you the slip whilst you weren't glancing at your sensors and even if you did pay attention to the sensors the difference in the way the information is presented can still mean you don't quite stay on the target's tail perfectly, again providing more opportunities for them to turn the tide of the battle.

Suffice to say we wanted Elite to feel like star wars in terms of how the ships move by banking/rolling and pitching through manoeuvres opposed to the yaw and pitch based FPS style movement most other space games offered (where roll plays little or no part). That limitation to having to do your main directional change manoeuvring by pitching makes the flight path taken to be more cinematic and means a skilled player can predict the manoeuvres of an opponent in advanced by observing their current roll position relative to themselves only. So long as they match the roll quickly enough they can always follow through the inevitable pitch manoeuvre effectively and maintain the chase. If the target could yaw or pitch effectively then it's much harder to assess what they're going to do as they're current roll position doesn't really matter any more.

Finally realism has played no part whatsoever in any of our design discussions about the flight model. We don't care what would be realistic as we only care what the game play experience is when flying these ships and so far we feel we're hitting the right notes for the majority of our audience.

(from here)
 
Better start also complaining about the flight models in games like X-Wing, Wing Commander, and oh, Star Citizen. :D :D :D


You are making my point perfectly. We grew up on Star Wars and Wing Commander, and now we expect our games to be like this. If you look back at the most amazing achievements that science and engineering have actually realized, you will see that many of them appeared in Sci Fi decades before. However, when science teachers try to teach physics to tomorrow's generation of inventors we first have to undo all of the bad lessons learned in games and movies like these. It makes people more easily frustrated and want to quit because it isn't intuitive. However, if games actually presented physics in a slightly more realistic way, then kids would grow up with deeper intuition for the way the universe works. Then they would grow up with minds unlike any seen before in history. Perhaps interstellar space flight might even become more possible. Just like star trek inspired the flip phone and the ipad. It might seem far fetched, but so was an iPad or an iPhone even a few years before they came out. So actually, yes, it is all deeply connected. Culture feeds curiosity which feeds invention which creates revolutions in human existence.

Yeah yeah, it's just a game, and this notion is pinning too much responsibility on the Devs. Sure, you could make that case. But I won't. That is the job of the bean counting department at Fdev. Not mine.
 
I'm struggling to understand why this is so bad? Almost none of the spaceflight uses newtonion physics. I could understand the complaint if it was an exception, but actually its more consistent with the rest of the model (which is for fun, not realism).
 
I think it's important to distinguish between the galaxy sim and the combat sim. Clearly they galaxy is going for some level of realism, and of course the combat mechanic needs to make some concessions for understandable game play reasons. However the only explanation we are being given is some hand waving<Ahem> about politely slowing down so you can be shot in the back fair and square.

Who in their right mind would do such a thing? If they are going to dance on Newtons grave, they should at least provide a plausible excuse for suspending the laws of physics. Backstory people! A Lore based reason at the very least. Otherwise, we all have to lower our IQ to play the game, and that is something that I cannot sit by silently for.

And yes, I realize I am being an angry nerd right now... but I feel like it's for a good reason. There is enough misinformation and bad science out there, and lots of young kids will be playing this game, and getting the wrong idea about physics. Every scifi franchise makes some compromises, but the degree of wrongness matters to people like me because it shapes the next generation and what they'll try to build and accomplish.

You know, as a father (and, often enough, angry nerd myself), I see your point. There's lots of bad and wrong and incomplete information out there, even in educational institutions, and it galls me to no end.

But as someone whose love for science was inspired by Star Trek (not very high on Moh's scale of sci-fi hardness) and as a storyteller, I think you're overreacting. First of all, children are very capable of seeing the difference between reality and fiction if it is taught to them. That's not Frontier's job, they make a game, not an educational tool, it's the job of parents and educators. If we weed out every piece of fiction that incorporates wrong ideas about physics (or other sciences, for that matter), our life and the stories in our lives become somewhat dull.

Compared to a lot of other games, Elite Dangerous is, in my opinion, very good at teaching stuff that's usually handwaved in science fiction. There is no artificial gravity, the distances involved in space travel are circumvented, but not ignored, kids can see with their own eyes that the night sky we know is only a fraction of a very common type of galaxy. Asteroid belts are sparse stretches of rocks, the sound is artificial, etc. Rather than critizising the game for it's lack of realism, I am mostly tempted to praise it for the amount of realism it has compared to a lot of other science-fiction universes.

And the spaceships follow quite a number of unusual but realistic conventions: Heat is a major problem (averting the classic "space is cold" trope that even 2001 followed for asthetic reasons), even the small ships are bulky compared to the X-Wings and Vipers and Star Furies we are used to, inertia often raises its ugly head.

And, the major part you're concerned about, even though there are limits to top speed and an arcade flight control model, the flight model itself sticks to the rules, more or less. There is a top speed, yes, but your thrusters have to counterfire to keep it. (At least when boosting, I'd have to check for the regular top speed. And yes, the arcade model keeps thrust at constant speed, that's annoying.) The "arcade" flight control model is there, but RCS thrusters fire if you stop rotating. I think it's important to keep in mind that, whatever the reasons (gameplay or lore based, Watsonian or Doylist) for the speed limit and the arcade flight control, the developers took at least some care to show how it is achieved. We just don't see much of it from the confines of our cockpits.

So, I'm kind of looking forward to giving my son an ED account when he's a little older; I can say, "look, the computer helps you flying and keeps your speed limit, but it has to work for it, because Newton is watching." In times where we have combat planes with negative stability, a more intuitive, arcade-like flight control model for spaceships isn't unimaginable, the main point is that the game shows how it is done within the realm of real-life physics - like a good flight sim that shows the constant movement of control surfaces.

As for the lack of lore-based explanations, I agree with you. I miss a lot of them, actually. There could be a number of good reasons for the artificial enforcement of speed limits, just like modern combat aircraft enforce an artificial g-force limit. (Artificial for the plane, not the pilot.) One could be that, in a universe were everyone with a few thousand credits can own a spaceship, no one wants a madman or unconscious rookie to reach speeds where their ship can punch through the next Coriolis station or turn it into a rod from god, I don't know. (Spatula came up with some good ones.)

But I'd like to hear those reasons, to be honest. I can live with handwaves ("The Eridani edict of 3131 prohibits speeds in excess of 500 km/h after the catastrophe at Veridian 6."), but I'd love to hear them. Just as I'd love to have a canonic, non-contradictory set of rules for FTL communication.

But, though I really love the game and have a load of respect for the developers, consistent world-building (as a story-telling, not a technical term) isn't their strongest suit in my experience. Which is sad, sometimes, because it's not that much work.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
To be honest I seem to be posting this a lot recently but the problem Frontier has is that half their audience want a game and the other half want a simulator.

Reality has to come crashing down at one point because it isn't that fun as a game, this annoys the simulator crowd since their idea of fun is the mind crushing immersion.
The most recent example was a chap who wanted a realistic pod ejection and then real time footage of an NPC ship scooping your emergency pod up and returning you to a station. Very cool idea but I find the idea of staring at my screen for an hour waiting for this NPC ship to jump me home I'd leave the computer on and go to the pub.

Same principal as this, boost should require engine pips, this is a way to get around that and therefore must be adjusted. If it were uber-realistic your speed would infinitely increase without a Cap until you reach 30km/s and move into supercruise.
 

Ian Phillips

Volunteer Moderator
So this fix....

Flying forward, boosting and then going FAOff to escape from combat was something that was 'fixed' some time ago for reasons already mentioned in this thread.

When that change was made, it only took the forward movement into account, not lateral movement. So some people discovered that you could STILL boost and FAOff without losing that max speed, by using lateral thrusters. All this change does is fix that bug/oversight that really should have been addressed in the original fix.
 
Last edited:
very thoughtful comments

Appreciated your post and it made me feel a bit better, thank you ;) Maybe it's up to us to create the lore reasons? From what I've seen on Galnet, they certainly incorporate the forum feedback into an often interesting (if sparse) story line.
 
Before I start. I understand why the ships behave the way they do in elite. Not criting it at all.
I just wanted to mention that years ago there was a game; I-war I think it was called, it used Newtonian physics in battle. And it was exactly as described earlier, you accelerated passed you enemy, then flipped the ship to turn facing backwards travelling away from them as constant speed but facing them, if they followed, the ship with the longest range weapons won or you could drop mines that they would have little change avoiding. If it was you, they just kept getting hit as they tried to close in. There was an explosion in the distance and end of fight. No real fun in a pvp world.
some People reckon landing is hard now try it with FA off through the whole approach. Very few pilots capable of doing that in a hurry.
 
Last edited:
ID War 2 was an amazing game. Nothing quite like it before or since. The combat was realistic, yet very engaging. You could joust or circle, or chase, just like in ED but the FA off was really off. It seemed simplistic and was easy to learn because FA was only there to help, not hinder. It also seemed arcade-like at first until you learned the mechanics which could be quite deep. Apparently much deeper than the first game, and a bit more deep than ED. The nav panel was pretty interesting as well, if a bit clunky. The only downside to that game imo is that the graphics are quite dated now. A 14 year old game. But it still hasn't been surpassed for realistic and FUN combat. Very intense and engaging with one of the best pirate mechanics I've seen in a game. Subsystem targeting was pretty good too especially on cargo haulers. In fact it feels like ED has borrowed quite a bit from that game, but left the auto docking as optional, and FA as far more intrusive.
 
However, if games actually presented physics in a slightly more realistic way, then kids would grow up with deeper intuition for the way the universe works. Then they would grow up with minds unlike any seen before in history... Culture feeds curiosity which feeds invention which creates revolutions in human existence.

I certainly appreciate where you're coming from with these arguments, but it's one point that I tend to generally disagree with when people bring it up around me. I'm a physics Ph.D. student and this argument comes up more frequently than you might imagine with classmates and professors alike. All of those "unrealistic" movies/shows/games fueled my desire to become more engaged in science when I was younger and helped lead me to where I am today. Yes, they do tend to break the rules of physics with artistic freedom in various games and movies for whatever reasons they deem necessary, but the people that become interested will dig deeper and want to learn more, discovering how the physics from that media works in the real world, just as you and many others have. That's where it really counts, that there actually is the proper information out there readily available for those who wish to learn (Wikipedia is a surprisingly excellent source of information for math and physics). Without knowing your background, I wouldn't worry so much about misinformation in games and movies as I would in the classrooms, and believe me, there are plenty of high school physics teachers out there who get a lot of key things wrong (but you know what? Those kids who go on to college learn it properly for themselves will think back to that class some day and realize that teacher had some particular topic all wrong... but that doesn't stop them from going on).

I sometimes build simulations to do computational analyses of various effects, but I have to make (justified) approximations at some point with a lot of my code. Nothing is perfect even in real-world physics simulations. I could point out so many things that are wrong with the physics in this game that you haven't even touched upon, and I'm not even talking about the obvious ones such as traveling faster than the speed of light (but I agree with breaking that rule to make the game more enjoyable), but I would rather not clutter up this post with trivial points.

This is a game at the end of the day, and a simulation of sorts. It's a simulation of a world with lots of people in it and how they act and react in various situations, some that are NPC induced, some that are player induced, and some that are self induced. It is the responsibility of the developers/Frontier to "govern" this world they've created for us and try to make it fair and enjoyable for all people, while staying true to their vision of a to-scale replica of the Milky Way Galaxy (Ok, I gotta get this one off my chest real quick, but that "map" of the Milky Way that you see when you zoom out in galaxy map is NOT the Milky Way. We know that our galaxy is a spiral type, and we know many things about many systems within it and its behavior, but we do not know what it looks like... pretty neat if you think about it). Sometimes the devs make choices with breaking physics without creating a likely lore to support it, but I think that if we all take a step back and really think about it that it is more enjoyable the way they've done it. Could it be better and fine-tuned? Absolutely. I do think there is a lot of room for improvement, including many of the things that you've already pointed out. Because this is a simulation, though, and they are the governing body writing the code, it is their world and their physics to simulate in whatever way meets the needs of the game. Thus far I support the game and their choices as a whole, though like you there are a few I would nit pick a little about as well.
 
Last edited:
From the beta 5 update:



Apparently Newton's First Law of Motion is an now considered an "exploit". Science just died a little today.

It has been a design decision since the game was in final beta that it would not be possible to maintain maximum speed indefinitely.

Science didn't die a little today. Science was sacrificed for gameplay last year.
 
Hot dang, I has a joystick now, I can play I-War2 properly again!

Rep to the good sir mentioning the title. I think I skipped my summerly I-War2athon last year, time to do it with extra fervor the coming summer!
 
From the beta 5 update:



Apparently Newton's First Law of Motion is an now considered an "exploit". Science just died a little today.
So now what is the benefit of using FAOFF no. We don't have top speed anymore, boost tactic just recently died. Are they forcing us to not use at all?
 
Back
Top Bottom