Turret accuracy / targeting

You've just specified the original design for the turret management system I designed. I don't think we're going to get the chance to implement that any time soon whereas the other stuff I mentioned before is more likely to get in.

LOL! Well a couple of us bounced ideas around and ended up with that solution, so it's good to hear we ended up at a common (ideal?) goal!


As for moving turrets forwards, at the moment, any method of being able to turn them on/off (easily) would be appreciated. At the very least because cleary kinetic turrets make little sense at the moment because they fire from the start to the end of a battle, which often makes no sense.

Secondly, being able to control quickly if a turret is firing forwards or not would be very useful, rather than having to dig around in the system panel screen in the heat of battle :)

If you could just make a turret active/inactive per firegroup that would be very useful.

Thanks...




Thanks again Mike for the details. Personally I hope for 1.3. ;-)

Not 1.2.1? :)
 
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LOL! Well a couple of us bounced ideas around and ended up with that solution, so it's good to hear we ended up at a common (ideal?) goal!

If you and Mike both arrived at the same design (semi-) independently, it might be a good one.

I hope that Mike can have this implemented somewhere down the line.
 
Did some more tests, this time with the Anaconda, 8D sensors, 1x C3 burst turret and 1x C3 pulse turret on the top.

Findings:
* There seems to be no difference between burst and pulse turrets in regards to targeting accuracy, they both follow the target with the same speed and everything looks to be synchronous except for the pew vs pewpewpew.
* There seems to be no difference whether TARGET ONLY or FIRE AT WILL is selected in regards to targeting accuracy (When using FIRE AT WILL the turrets stop firing when the target reaches 0% hull, with TARGET ONLY they keep firing until the target explodes. (bug?) With FIRE AT WILL multiple hostiles are fired at simultaneously, with all its pros and cons.)
* With 8D sensors on the Anaconda the accuracy rapidly goes down (more dancing) if the distance to target is > 500m (which isn't much, but interestingly most NPCs are stupid enough to stick around that distance if I just stop the Anaconda)
* The overall accuracy with 8D sensors on the Anaconda appears to be better (less dancing, more hits) than on the Python with 6A sensors.

Todo:
* test accuracy / distance with 8A sensors on Anaconda
* do some more tests with Python (pulse + burst, moving fast vs slowly vs full stop)

Questions:
* Does the overall accuracy of turrets increase with sensor class more than with sensor rating, effectively making turrets better for huge ships due to the sensor size?
* Is the accuracy tied to the speed you are moving with as well as your turns since the turrets constantly have to track the targets and counter any movements the target is doing as well as your own ship? In this case a faster ship (Python is faster than Anaconda) would effectively reduce turret accuracy and explain why I had more "luck" with the Anaconda.

re: 8A in an Anaconda

in 1.1 I tested this and where nav points were closer to stars it seemed to be a big improvement in terms of range and
lock on targets from my d-8 sensors

In other areas of space to be honest it seemed to still onoy resolve at 3 or 4 kms .... but the turret lock was for sure
better. If you get the "wavey daveys" from your turrets ddrop you lock and re-establish it very quickly them you
get 4 x 4 onto the target until they pop.

Now I havent had much time in 1.2 but last night I noted my a-8 sensors seemed to be doing a better job at longer
ranges.
 
re: 8A in an Anaconda

in 1.1 I tested this and where nav points were closer to stars it seemed to be a big improvement in terms of range and
lock on targets from my d-8 sensors

In other areas of space to be honest it seemed to still onoy resolve at 3 or 4 kms .... but the turret lock was for sure
better. If you get the "wavey daveys" from your turrets ddrop you lock and re-establish it very quickly them you
get 4 x 4 onto the target until they pop.

Now I havent had much time in 1.2 but last night I noted my a-8 sensors seemed to be doing a better job at longer
ranges.

You should have read the whole thread. You missed a LOT of information.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If you and Mike both arrived at the same design (semi-) independently, it might be a good one.

I hope that Mike can have this implemented somewhere down the line.

If developers and players independently have the same design ideas it really must be the best way. At least one can be sure there won't be any moaning later... ;-) On the other hand, no matter what it is but there always seems to be someone that can't resist the urge of complaining. :-(
 
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Eh... I'm honestly not sure why turrets shouldn't be as accurate as possible. Artificially handicapping them for the sake of gameplay mechanics, goes against the spirit of trying to provide a realistic experience. As I pointed out earlier, real-world CIWS turrets, like the Phalanx, have been shown to be able to hit individual mortar rounds. The weapons we have in the real world are now literally magnitudes more capable than the supposedly futuristic ones shown in this game, when you consider even a Sidewinder is the size of a house or so. :)

IMO, 'gimballed' weapons and turrets should essentially be the same weapons. The only difference would be if it's a craft meant to be capable of flying into an atmosphere, at which point, if it's a huge mechanised turret, it would present aerodynamic problems. Although, even there... A laser 'turret' could essentially be no different from today's CCTV cameras; just a hemispherical dome mounted into a hull. The USAF already had plans (so far as I know, only discarded for budget reasons) to put 12-shot laser weapons in wing-mounted pods on conventional F-18s, not too long ago: They wouldn't be forward-firing only. They would be just as capable of slewing and locking on as laser designation pods are, as they're the same principle.

It would hack away a player's ability to attack a ship? Good! That's what they're meant to do in real-world naval tactics! :) This isn't the 1940s. Someone complains when they can't take on the space-going equivalent of an oil tanker, because it's got four or more turrets blazing away? Well, that's what would happen for real... People with something of that massive scale would invest in as much protection as possible. It should be problematic to go after vessels like that. A Type 9 should be difficult to attack - especially a small convoy of them with overlapping fields of fire. They wouldn't be as armoured as a military vessel, to save on expense (and, fuel-wise, mass), but massive transports having lots of accurate auto-aiming turrets? Sure. That should be the realistic defence against being interdicted by grouped NPCs, who would have to use the same types of tactics against them as actual navies in the real world do. Similarly, even more powerful shields should be available to thwart grouped turret fire.

I do suspect stuff like that is actually going to be implemented, some day. It just frustrates me to see realistic abilities being handicapped purely for the sake of arcade-like gameplay, in a product which is rightly hyped on its attention to realism.

And, honestly, I feel that would make piracy more encompassing and fun, as a profession. If you want to take on really big and capable targets for the biggest rewards, then you'd have to tool up and group up. The game hasn't yet implemented features like auto-hacking, where you could load up with a module which allows it, which your potential target would have to have a countermeasures suite to work against. 'Hacking duels' could covertly disable all turrets or simply force a ship to jettison its cargo from a distance. Likewise, ECM modules would really become a force to be reckoned with: You could project false sensor signatures, forcing turrets to open fire on a false target, to allow you (and potentially your ordnance) to get in close. You could jam a target's sensors completely, preventing turrets from having any realistic use - and, just like in reality, if your target has sufficient power, they could force their active sensors to 'burn through' the jamming - giving power plant consideration even more use in the game.

There wouldn't just be spoofing with countermeasures like flares/chaff, either. You could have drones. Not for recon or attack, but to be launched and project a much larger sensor image of itself, forcing your target to open fire on it and ignore you/your missiles/torpedoes.

And if you can't do any of that? Then 'down and dirty' groups of pirates could get together and use swarm tactics. You could time your flights to appear suddenly from multiple directions. The target's fire-control computer would have to prioritise targets and, if you launch dozens, if not hundreds, of missiles (especially if mixed with drones), the defences would be saturated (although, if they're in Sidewinders/Eagles, the really powerful enough turrets should be able to one-hit destroy them).

Consequence? Much more rewarding piracy events to either be involved in or on the receiving end of! Keeping stuff at its most basic will make piracy feel mundane and painting-by-numbers. Introducing factors like these, especially with accurate turrets, will force innovation and make pirates team up. Lone wolves will, just like in reality, be forced to go after the exposed and weak - or operate a large enough armoured hulk to make massed turret fire inconsequential against it. Of course, they'd have to save up for it... But no longer needing to share the rewards of looted cargo might make that investment worth it.

I also think that turrets and missile, alike, would hugely benefit from a sub-tab 'weapons management' panel. It would allow us to do a whole lot:

* Setting ammunition firing rates.
* Designate which groups of missile should be singularly, simultaneously or 'ripple'-fired.
* Set fuses: Some might be more effective if set to proximity, others as penetration.
* Warhead type designation: Some ships could be large enough to carry torpedoes and exchange their warheads. So, you could carry around a basic torpedo type, but purchase different warheads. One target might be deserving of conventional exposives. Others, armour-penetration. Others, maybe you want to have a torpedo which, like today's cruise missiles, you could give an EMP warhead, to short out all of their electronics. Or if you want to really play the villain, maybe you want to load up on outlawed chemical/biological weapons to kill crews or lay waste to space stations and planetary surface colonies (the reward of taking hardware would be huge, but at the risk of havign a massive bounty placed upon you). And why not nuclear warheads? A real game-changer! In the real world, Russia has 'supercavitating' torpedoes which scream along at massive speed and could be coupled with a nuclear warhead to take out carrier battle groups. In space, a player could do much the same. The actual warhead should be prohibitively expensive and you'd need to take severe care to not have it simply shot down, but you could potentially eliminate an entire fleet if it's packed in close enough together, even with a Sidewinder. Most ships would have sensors which would assign any radiological signature as the very top priority to shoot down, of course, making such ventures highly unlikely to succeed, but massively satisfying.
* Laser designation: Some weapons could be laser-designated. Likewise, you could have special missions where you have to lock on a target's window and the vibration would allow the computer to interpret what might be getting spoken in the room. This is actual, real technology which is available for espionage purposes now. No reason why it wouldn't be used in the future. The game mechanics would function like they did in the old 'EF-2000' game, where you have to slew the camera viewfinder over your target, then tell the computer to lock it in, at which time, so long as the hardpoint is facing the target, it would remain slaved on where you told it to.
 

Mike Evans

Designer- Elite: Dangerous
Frontier
Eh... I'm honestly not sure why turrets shouldn't be as accurate as possible. Artificially handicapping them for the sake of gameplay mechanics, goes against the spirit of trying to provide a realistic experience.

There's your problem right there. I'm not trying to create a realistic experience. I'm trying to create a gamey but fair experience with a sprinkle of plausibility thrown in.
 
There's your problem right there. I'm not trying to create a realistic experience. I'm trying to create a gamey but fair experience with a sprinkle of plausibility thrown in.

In this experience... is there still room for some hired NPC weapons officer helping to operate the turrets and thereby increasing their aim? :)
 
In this experience... is there still room for some hired NPC weapons officer helping to operate the turrets and thereby increasing their aim? :)

Probably won't see that until expansion time, leaving you plenty of time to admire the empty seats in various cockpits. :)
 
Probably won't see that until expansion time, leaving you plenty of time to admire the empty seats in various cockpits. :)

yes.
and there is noone telling me i took the wrong turn, should stop and ask someone...
then i'd have to go and throw someone out of the hatch. too much hassle...
 
There's your problem right there. I'm not trying to create a realistic experience. I'm trying to create a gamey but fair experience with a sprinkle of plausibility thrown in.

Everything is better with sprinkles.

Seriously, to date I'm seeing decent improvements and a job well done so far. Keep it up.
 
Just so you guys are aware:

Sensors do not affect turret behaviour in any way other than being used to resolve the contact in the first place so they can be tracked.

Thanks for this Mike, I've been asking people claiming they helped gimbals and turrets for evidence or a dev post about this for ages and this is exactly what was required (-:
 
There's your problem right there. I'm not trying to create a realistic experience. I'm trying to create a gamey but fair experience with a sprinkle of plausibility thrown in.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I want this to be fun! I used to be really into the Microprose and Janes series of combat flight sims, back in the nineties, but then it all came to a sudden stop. These days, you're forced to choose between the made-for-teens 'HAWX' series or products which need you to type out a novel just to close the canopy. Sod that, I want accessibility! :)

But on the other hand, realism and fun (when realism is presented in an intuitive and user-friendly fashion) should not be mutually exclusive concepts, IMO. I love that gimballed/turreted weapons and lateral thrust are even included features, because now we get to 'live' the type of amazingly fun stuff shown in 'Babylon 5', 'Farscape', 'Space: Above And Beyond' and all the rest. Stuff you you could never do in an aircraft because the environment of space allows for different things. I just dislike when things which should be standard are handicapped.

Here's an example of another game series: In every single one of the 'Aliens Versus Predator' games, if you fired your shoulder cannon it would always uncloak you (whether in single- or multi-player). It was a shoe-horned gameplay mechanic and, because of that, it broke the immersion of being the creature you saw in the movies. There were other ways for the game designers to have got around that, but uncloaking was the easiest (and, arguably, even laziest) method - and it's happened in every one of them.

That's why I say, personally, I don't think very accurate turrets (even if they're super-expensive or capped to only be placed on the larger vessels) take away from fun, but they would help to breed innovation. Would help to make players modify their tactics if they're attacking a really big, massively valuable target. It wouldn't take away fun, but it would help to increase diversity and increase the sense of cinematic immersion - as per that fantastic trailer we all saw. Everyone wins! :)

With that said, whatever you guys decide, obviously, it's your product and you have my utmost respect for giving us the experience we now have. Just clarifying my viewpoint.

Then everyone would arm with nothing but turrets for their uber aiming huge field of attack!

Which is probably how it would be in reality. But there's no reason the accuracy can't be hugely improved at a suitably expensive A-rating. Also no reason why shields couldn't be improved. If you have an A-rated class 3 shield, it should be a matched countermeasure against being hit by an A-rated class 3 weapon, etcetera.

Again, in real life we've had auto-aiming, very accurate turreted guns aboard virtually all combat ships in most 'blue water' navies for a long time. That hasn't meant naval warfare is suddenly non-existent. :) It just means technology has had to progress to provide suitable countermeasures. ECM and jamming would be the most obvious candidates to act as countermeasures against turreted weapons. ECM modules are handled a little... Weirdly in ED. They're like a progress bar which you 'shoot', when they should be automated things which are seeking out attacking sensors (on ships and weapons, alike) and attempting to spoof/jam them. That should be the most basic way to throw off auto-aiming weapons, because they're relying on data input from sensors.
 
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Fair enough! Explains more than just this question to my mind. And its a great experience, and the feedback from you and others at Frontier make it even better.

There's your problem right there. I'm not trying to create a realistic experience. I'm trying to create a gamey but fair experience with a sprinkle of plausibility thrown in.
 
Can anyone confirm:

It reads like turrets got buffed in teh recent patch from looking back over this thread, but reading Mike Evan's posts it looks like this is somehting that is planned to be done in the future.

Is it that they remain the same and will be buffed at some point, that they have been buffed and will be buffed further, or that the buffing is complete and they are now working as intended?

More to the point - should i go buy them now or stick with gimballed for my tradeship?
 
Can anyone confirm:

It reads like turrets got buffed in teh recent patch from looking back over this thread, but reading Mike Evan's posts it looks like this is somehting that is planned to be done in the future.

Is it that they remain the same and will be buffed at some point, that they have been buffed and will be buffed further, or that the buffing is complete and they are now working as intended?

More to the point - should i go buy them now or stick with gimballed for my tradeship?

what kind of trader?
i personally never put weapons on my trading ship (not even on the anaconda). shields always... but no weapons.
 
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