Nice attempt Granite but unfortunately missed the mark - "grind" is subjective .. what you find repetitive and boring I do not, and vice versa, as games are what you make of them 
Is this game a grind? An attempt to answer...
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Nice attempt Granite but unfortunately missed the mark - "grind" is subjective .. what you find repetitive and boring I do not, and vice versa, as games are what you make of them
Thanks Liqua, but that is not the definition of "grind" I am using.
I am not using the word in a negative way at all - and certainly not calling it boring. I am merely placing "grind" on the opposite end of the line to "emergent gameplay"...that is all. 
Hard to know from your inforgraphic
There is very little emergent gameplay in ED as the game doesn't really allow for it - the game rules are too rigid (that's open-world vs sandbox for ya
) Sure, you can "use your imagination" and pretend to be something but the game doesn't really care for your thoughts. Perhaps I am getting too old but I find truly immersive non-grind games are good old fashioned pen-and-paper dice RPGs : with a good GM and a theme / setting you can do anything you want.Games to me are pure grind fests (in both senses of the word)
"Grind" is a subjective term.
If you see everything between you and an Anaconda as a pain in the hoop then its a grind.
If you enjoy playing the game (and who knows...maybe one day you'll get an Anaconda) then its not a grind.
I don't think its a grind - I'm a long long long way from the Anaconda, but I don't care.
If you see everything between you and an Anaconda as a pain in the hoop then its a grind.
If you enjoy playing the game (and who knows...maybe one day you'll get an Anaconda) then its not a grind.
I don't think its a grind - I'm a long long long way from the Anaconda, but I don't care.
I honestly think those things will come with time, I think Fdev made Elite: Dangerous with Elite in mind(kinda obvious), but what I want to say is that the core of the game is basically what we had back in the day, just with better graphics. But we all know they rushed the release, and are just now adding some new features to the game that should have been there since day 1.(Imo)
It seems like rushing the game hasn't backfired(yet), so hopefully Fdev will keep improving the game, there's a lot of room for it.
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Grind is doing the "SAME" task/action over and over, the variance in these tasks/actions is what obfuscates grind. Unfortunately in elite, there isn't much emergent game play and tasks generally boil down to 3 things Combat, Trade & Exploration.
The general nature of consumers(us playing) is to purchase things, so the point of scrutiny towards grind is directly related to the available tasks that provide incomes.
How many trades do I need to do to get a Anaconda?
How many kills do I need to do to get a Anaconda?
How much do I need to explore to get a Anaconda?
Then you can establish how much repetition is required.
IMO Elite is a grindy game, but that's not to say that's a bad ideal, although emergent gameplay is where it's at, they have a massive universe, now all they need to do is fill it with emergent algorithms.
The general nature of consumers(us playing) is to purchase things, so the point of scrutiny towards grind is directly related to the available tasks that provide incomes.
How many trades do I need to do to get a Anaconda?
How many kills do I need to do to get a Anaconda?
How much do I need to explore to get a Anaconda?
Then you can establish how much repetition is required.
IMO Elite is a grindy game, but that's not to say that's a bad ideal, although emergent gameplay is where it's at, they have a massive universe, now all they need to do is fill it with emergent algorithms.
It's only a grind if you want it to be. 'Filling the bars' is a side effect of how I play the game. I'm never going to be super rich and I'm never going to have the biggest, bestest ship (never mind a fleet) but that's not what I'm in the game for.
Hard to know from your inforgraphic
There is very little emergent gameplay in ED as the game doesn't really allow for it - the game rules are too rigid (that's open-world vs sandbox for ya
Games to me are pure grind fests (in both senses of the word)
Totally agree with your point about pen-and-paper games.
I still feel that games like Skyrim for example aren't really a "grind-fest". They can be if all you are doing is leveling up and gaining money etc. But if you want to head out and have adventure the game rules are designed such that the world reacts to the player in a alive and believable way. This is how Frontier always spoke about Elite in the early days. But now we have a game that, as you say has rigid rules. Sure you can head out in Elite and do what you want, but the galaxy certainly doesn't react to you as a player.
Personally i think its a grind if you make it like it.
This is how I play the game too! Which is why I have been able to play it for so long - and I really don't care that the game is a "grind", because for me it isn't.
However the primary focus of the game is indeed to fill those bars. Power play is built from the ground up with that in mind. All I am saying is that it could have been built with emergent game play as the main focus and bar filling as the second focus. I'm not talking about how a player chooses to participate in the game, I'm talking about the bottom line of how the game has been designed. Neither one of them is bad - or better. But I do have a personal preference.
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ED definitely is only a grind if you make it so. Any action from trading the same route with the same stuff, exploring where you try to scan every object, mining where you dump everything apart from Gold until you have 150T, missions where you only do ones over 10k for one faction. The difference is that you can do mixed up exploration (jump for 1000Ly then look for Earth-likes), trading where you do rares runs but pick up missions or do exploration along the way. Or just mixing it all up with combat/trading and playing with different ship/loadouts.
I just finished Saints Row IV this morning, and one of the worst aspects was the "collect the Clusters". There are 1000-odd "Clusters" to pick up around the city, and you basically just run around from rooftop to rooftop picking them up. Without them, you can't boost your powers, so it's kinda necessary. THAT is grinding and in an otherwise fun game, it seems so pointless. ED is only like that if you get stuck in that mindset. Grinding it out for the first 500,000Cr is almost essential, but that's baby steps to bigger things. After that the game is up to you.
I just finished Saints Row IV this morning, and one of the worst aspects was the "collect the Clusters". There are 1000-odd "Clusters" to pick up around the city, and you basically just run around from rooftop to rooftop picking them up. Without them, you can't boost your powers, so it's kinda necessary. THAT is grinding and in an otherwise fun game, it seems so pointless. ED is only like that if you get stuck in that mindset. Grinding it out for the first 500,000Cr is almost essential, but that's baby steps to bigger things. After that the game is up to you.
There are bars that one can fill
And I can see how people can fall in to the pattern of play to fill the bar
And I will accept not everyone would find my play style, but you can play the game to be a pilot in an open world and fill said bars as a secondary consequence
i.e. Fly to a Nebula to see it be in it, and the earning credits or Explorer rank is a secondary factor.
Run Missions of mercy for a faction suffering from an outbreak, or run guns to a war zone (weapons Wanted Lakon Type 9s) for the fun of doing it, any profit or faction rep or trade rank once again a secondary concern.
You can do it just for the progression bars, or you can get the progression bars as a side effect of exploring the game.
The Grind comes down to if you feel the need to have to fill the progression bars to get a sense of achievement or not.
And I can see how people can fall in to the pattern of play to fill the bar
And I will accept not everyone would find my play style, but you can play the game to be a pilot in an open world and fill said bars as a secondary consequence
i.e. Fly to a Nebula to see it be in it, and the earning credits or Explorer rank is a secondary factor.
Run Missions of mercy for a faction suffering from an outbreak, or run guns to a war zone (weapons Wanted Lakon Type 9s) for the fun of doing it, any profit or faction rep or trade rank once again a secondary concern.
You can do it just for the progression bars, or you can get the progression bars as a side effect of exploring the game.
The Grind comes down to if you feel the need to have to fill the progression bars to get a sense of achievement or not.
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I'm not sure exactly what players who say "it's only a grind if you make it a grind" are doing with their time, other than PvP. The content of the game, such as it is right now, is very grindy, imo. The "professions" centre around repeating the same tasks over and over again. Missions, as of 1.2, are bland, cookie-cutter affairs, which usually just involve exactly the same repetitive gameplay as other career activities - apart from assassinations, but the USS mechanic was pretty crappy in itself.
I think there are some people who are just satisfied by being in the universe itself. They don't require interesting things to do - the interesting thing is just being in a space ship and flying about. For most people, I can't help but feel that will wear off. There are other people for whom emergent, player-driven content is the attraction. I.e. One player group has blockaded a station and another player group are trying to break through. In other words: Eve. There are still others for whom PvP is the main draw.
However, there is a group of gamers that are not particularly well catered for in Elite (not that I'm arguing it's a basket of roses for all the above either). I worry they represent the majority, too. These gamers want content to play through. It doesn't matter how it's created or generated, but they want interesting things to do, they want to be given missions, involving characters and stories. They want the universe to feel like it's alive. They want persistent NPCs, battles around stations, planetary bombardments, resource sites with proper mining operations, combat zones that can be won or lost, mission arcs with different branches and outcomes, characters to develop alongside and to interact with. A lot of stuff feels highly simplistic and place-holder at the moment.
So, it's fine to say ED isn't a grind if you don't want it to be, but if your main pleasure in gaming is to complete interesting content within a rich and diverse universe, there isn't a lot to do instead of grind right now. I genuinely hope that will change. I would love a decent quest system with things like voice acted dialog, conversation options etc. I worry that powerplay implies FD see the game going in a different direction. To start putting meta-gaming layers on top of existing gameplay mechanics, when those mechanics are so simplistic and un-fulfilling - particularly in some areas (i'm looking at you, exploration) - seems somewhat premature. The only explanation I can think of is that they don't share the assessment that these areas are lacking.
I think there are some people who are just satisfied by being in the universe itself. They don't require interesting things to do - the interesting thing is just being in a space ship and flying about. For most people, I can't help but feel that will wear off. There are other people for whom emergent, player-driven content is the attraction. I.e. One player group has blockaded a station and another player group are trying to break through. In other words: Eve. There are still others for whom PvP is the main draw.
However, there is a group of gamers that are not particularly well catered for in Elite (not that I'm arguing it's a basket of roses for all the above either). I worry they represent the majority, too. These gamers want content to play through. It doesn't matter how it's created or generated, but they want interesting things to do, they want to be given missions, involving characters and stories. They want the universe to feel like it's alive. They want persistent NPCs, battles around stations, planetary bombardments, resource sites with proper mining operations, combat zones that can be won or lost, mission arcs with different branches and outcomes, characters to develop alongside and to interact with. A lot of stuff feels highly simplistic and place-holder at the moment.
So, it's fine to say ED isn't a grind if you don't want it to be, but if your main pleasure in gaming is to complete interesting content within a rich and diverse universe, there isn't a lot to do instead of grind right now. I genuinely hope that will change. I would love a decent quest system with things like voice acted dialog, conversation options etc. I worry that powerplay implies FD see the game going in a different direction. To start putting meta-gaming layers on top of existing gameplay mechanics, when those mechanics are so simplistic and un-fulfilling - particularly in some areas (i'm looking at you, exploration) - seems somewhat premature. The only explanation I can think of is that they don't share the assessment that these areas are lacking.
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So many good points raised in this thread!
I've been a massive fan of the space genre for as long as I can remember, and have played most of the space games on PC over the past few decades! When I saw the Elite Kickstarter I was so pleased to see that the space sim genre was making a come-back. Although Frontier did a very poor job in the first few weeks of the Kickstarter campaign with providing zero information to the backers, they soon got their act together. Eventually we were shown what a wonderful game Elite would be.
A world of EMERGENT gameplay, provided via game mechanics that reacted to the players actions. There was never a mention of levels, or filling bars, or accessing tiers. All the talk was purely about a dynamic galaxy. Here are the examples I have written about here already over the past few days:
1) Selling exploration data to the highest bidder, or to the faction of your choice. This would cause said faction to go exploit the resources in that area. The opposing faction may put a bounty on your head for selling out. The galaxy REACTS to you selling the your discovery data, not by a bar filling up - but because the NCPs and faction base their actions and decisions on what you have done!
2) NPC Wingmen. A trader with a non-combat ship could hire NPC Wingmen. Some of these wingmen may turn out to be untrustworthy and betray you at a key moment! The galaxy REACTS, not by filling bars or accumulating numbers - but because an NPC makes a decision about you and decides upon a course of action.
3) "Assassination Mission". A player is offered a mission to assassination a political leader. A second player is offered a mission to stop the assassination. The galaxy REACTS, it forces two players into a confrontation situation - not by filling bars, changing stats or using ladder gameplay - but rather by directly placing the players in confrontation over a matter that is occurring in the game, rather than something linked to progress bars and galnet text.
4) Resources discovered in a ring systems cause miners to appear, which in turn causes an Outpost to be built. If player numbers increase more miners arrive, followed by pirates and bounty hunters and then security forces. Still more players arrive, so a station is built, followed by traders and economic booms...attracting Factions and Powers. This is a DYNAMIC alive galaxy...one that is reacting to player activity, rather than presenting bars to be filled.
This is the Elite that I imagined...it is the Elite which was discussed in the design documents and during the early development. This is an Elite which can be placed to the far right of my graph. However this is not the Elite we actually have.
Amazing post. I would love to play an Elite game designed by you
You highlight part of the problem there. One night I'm running a mission of mercy. The next I'm running guns. My gameplay experience was more or less identical. It takes a lot of imagination for that to constitute different content for a lot of players. I'm out exploring at the moment. It's fun just to be "in the nebula". But that will wear off. You can't trade purely on spectacle forever. There has to be something to do there. The whole thing is made all the more tragic by how wonderful the spectacle is, and how well realised it is: what a shame more isn't made of it!
kreuzbichler
Banned
Elite is as "theme park" as it gets.
Open World doesn´t define it´s NOT a Theme Park.
World of Warcraft is "open world" too, you can go everywhere, doesn´t mean you survive.
In Elite the level is your ship and how many credits you have, so it´s just another theme park in a different disguise
Open World doesn´t define it´s NOT a Theme Park.
World of Warcraft is "open world" too, you can go everywhere, doesn´t mean you survive.
In Elite the level is your ship and how many credits you have, so it´s just another theme park in a different disguise
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What's the goal/progression in Eliteangerous?
Own the biggest boat? an Anaconda isn't required to complete any of the content.
Explore the galaxy? any boat with a decent size fuel tank, average jump range and enough slots for scoop/scanners is good enough.
Influence Systems? so many different methods, if you want to do them.
Trading? pretty sure you don't need a type-9 to trade, but this is really just a means to and end, to gain credits.
In so many MMOs the content is there to grind, to get to the max level, and next xpac adds more content to grind. There are very few where the content starts when you get to the max level or have completed a class template. People are always rushing to complete content (like its suddenly going to vanish!) and then wonder why there is nothing to do till the next xpac. lol
In ED, there is way too much emphasise on how many credits/hour some task is worth, or not worth their time.
angerous?Own the biggest boat? an Anaconda isn't required to complete any of the content.
Explore the galaxy? any boat with a decent size fuel tank, average jump range and enough slots for scoop/scanners is good enough.
Influence Systems? so many different methods, if you want to do them.
Trading? pretty sure you don't need a type-9 to trade, but this is really just a means to and end, to gain credits.
In so many MMOs the content is there to grind, to get to the max level, and next xpac adds more content to grind. There are very few where the content starts when you get to the max level or have completed a class template. People are always rushing to complete content (like its suddenly going to vanish!) and then wonder why there is nothing to do till the next xpac. lol
In ED, there is way too much emphasise on how many credits/hour some task is worth, or not worth their time.
I have a game on my phone. It's an 8 Ball Pool game. You rank up, gain 'coins' and 'cash'. Progression is by winning and unlocking leagues, better cues and so on. It's a pay to win game but you can progress (as I have) without spending money.
Point is, it's entirely meaningless whether I'm putting down 25 coins for a match or 5 million coins. I'm still playing a game of pool with people of a similar rank (league based). The actual playing of the game is fun, not the meaningless accumulation of so called wealth and fancy cues and chat packs.
Whilst Elite is a much more complex game, at its heart, the same can be said, and it very much depends on how you perceive the game. You can perceive the game as a grind if your primary aim is to get an Anaconda. If on the other hand you're more interested in the 'stuff you can do' rather than the 'stuff you can own' then your perception of the game as a grind is likely to be lessened.
M2C
Edit: Essentially what Callahan44 was getting at above!
Point is, it's entirely meaningless whether I'm putting down 25 coins for a match or 5 million coins. I'm still playing a game of pool with people of a similar rank (league based). The actual playing of the game is fun, not the meaningless accumulation of so called wealth and fancy cues and chat packs.
Whilst Elite is a much more complex game, at its heart, the same can be said, and it very much depends on how you perceive the game. You can perceive the game as a grind if your primary aim is to get an Anaconda. If on the other hand you're more interested in the 'stuff you can do' rather than the 'stuff you can own' then your perception of the game as a grind is likely to be lessened.
M2C
Edit: Essentially what Callahan44 was getting at above!
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