Power's success/failure predetermined by their special rewards?

[SentineI]

I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I could not find a thread dedicated to it, so I created this one.

Each Power has their own special rewards, in particular a special weapon. Unfortunately the rewards seem quite imbalanced, as some of the rewards are generally much more attractive than others. This seems likely to mean that a few Powers (with the best rewards) will get the lions share of players, and thus automatically do really well, while a few Powers with particularly unattractive/niche rewards seem destined to fail (and so be removed from the PowerPlay).

And the PowerPlay Beta already showed that this seems to be the case, while Denton Patreus (who should be a big name by rights) did rather badly due to his rubbish rewards.

Power benefits: Arissa Lavigny-Duval & (to a slightly lesser degree) Zachary Hudson have the very attractive rewards of big increases to Bounty awards, and unsurprisingly both did very well in the Beta. Zemina Torval & Edmund Mahon have a quite attractive reward of an increase of Trade profit. Archon Delaine has very attractive rewards for wanna-be criminals (pirates, smugglers, etc). The rest of the Powers have rewards which are rather uninteresting for most people.

Power weapons: Arissa Lavigny-Duval has the awesome-sounding Imperial Hammer (multi shot rail gun). Felicia Winters has the great sounding Pulse Disruptor (medium pulse weapon, causes module malfunction). Aisling Duval has the Prismatic Shield Generator (particularly strong shields). Zachary Hudson has the Pacifier Frag-Cannon (large frag cannon with decreased damage but increased range and tighter spread). Edmund Mahon has the Retribution (small laser beam causes enhanced heat damage). Archon Delaine has the Cytoscrambler (burst laser, highly effective against shields, but no hull damage). The rest of the Powers have fairly rubbish-sounding (or very niche) weapons.


Given that it's fairly easy to predict that Arissa Lavigny-Duval & Zachary Hudson will do very well. Archon Delaine might do too, if there are a lot of wanna-be criminals. Edmund Mahon might do well too (depending on how popular Trading is). Zemina Torval may do well due to her Trade boost. Felicia Winters, Aisling Duval & Archon Delaine may do well due to their good weapon. My expectations are pretty closely met by the actual order of Powers in the Beta:

1. Felicia Winters
2. Arissa Lavigny-Duval
3. Zachary Hudson
4. Zemina Torval
5. Aisling Duval
6. Edmund Mahon

7. Li Yong-Rui
8. Denton Patreus
9. Archon Delaine
10. Pranav Antal

The only surprise for me is Archon Delaine doing so badly - it appears there are very few wanna-be criminals, and everyone else isn't keen on sacrificing security in exchange for his great sounding weapon. He was in my top-four Powers to consider, but he was also the first one I discounted because his benefits didn't match my usual in-game activities.

I'm slightly surprised that Felicia Winters is above Arissa & Zachary - I can only assume that people REALLY like the sound of her special weapon... or that her weapon is attractive to a very wide range of Cmdrs. (Probably both.)


PowerPlay seems less about politics, and more about rewards. This really needs to change, or else the outcome of PowerPlay will be uninteresting & predictable. Fixing this won't be easy, but my suggestion is that each Power should have SEVERAL special weapons (shared by other Powers), so that people aren't forced to join a single Power due to their particular weapon. This would also reduce the expected "Power shopping" where people rotate through Powers to get all the best weapons. Another fix would be to reduce the over-the-top Bounty boost. More fixes would still be needed.

 

[X2Eliah]

In the first few weeks, this might be the case. WHen people will figure out that the differences aren't that grand in terms of balancing, and when the initial rush of min-maxer commanders get everything, thing's will get back to "normal".

And.. idk. Maybe it's because my first space game was X2:The Threat, which had basically all weaponry be both faction-reputation-locked and wildly different, but having unique, themed equipment as faction-only access items seems pretty much normal / expected.


Also, another thought: nobody's said that the factions need to be 100% identically strong, or identically appealing. Their politics might influence a player to join, or their equipment, or their strength. All valid factors, imo. The more, the better.

 

[SentineI]

@X2Eliah
I believe that the Powers (rewards) are too imbalanced for things to ever even-out. I imagine that X2 was very well balanced, overall (never played myself).

 

[CMDRKNac]

Not special rewards, but stats, that's what will really make a difference in the long run.

Special rewards for the top 5, who cares? They are temporal anyway. Special rewards for rank 3 are likely to be underwhelming, even if cool different flavours.


But the stats boost from the powers can make a big difference on the territory and be felt by everybody, that can push more people towards some areas instead of others.

 

[Nagual]

The rewards you get for pledging aren't the real benefit to Powerplay. It's the effects that they bring to systems under their influence that's the key thing. The power specific weapons aren't all powerful - just a little different, and if they are too powerful they will be adjusted (MB's words). You don't need to pledge to get the benefits of the changes they bring. Only pledge if you want to influence where those changes happen.

A summary post on effects: link

 

[SentineI]

Someone's doing a poll to see what Power people say they'll support:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CGT8RQM

The current results make amusing reading for Patreus 'fans':
1. Aisling Duval (18%)
2. Edmund Mahon (15%)
3. Arissa Lavigny-Duval (14%)
4. Archon Delaine (12%)
5. Zachary Hudson (8%)
6. Felicia Winters (6%)
7. Zemina Torval (5%)
Li Yong-Rui (5%)
9. Denton Patreus (4%, yay, go Patreus!)
10. Pranav Antal (2%)

I suspect that people may end-up picking different Powers to what they claim, once they take a closer look at the rewards. But it seems that Denton Patreus is pretty much dead either way.

 

[SentineI]

The rewards you get for pledging aren't the real benefit to Powerplay. It's the effects that they bring to systems under their influence that's the key thing.

I was including system effects as part of the "rewards" (they are mentioned in the article I linked to). Arissa Lavigny-Duval is extremely over-powered for Bounty rewards, as "In Federation/Empire/Alliance/Independent bounty 20% more" AND "Bounties awarded increased by 20% in controlled/exploited systems, increased by standing 3, 2 or 1 to 30%, 40% or 50% respectively."

However, I personally find the system-wide effects to be less enticing in general.

 

[RabidRich]

Some of the rewards seem a bit backwards. Archon followers don't need a cytoscrambler, but the pulse disruptor would be a nice auxiliary weapon for a pirate, making fsd/drives/cargo hatches malfunction. Literally no other playstyle has a good use for funking modules up AFTER shields are down. If you aren't robbing someone then by that point you are just trying to explode them ASAP...

 

[tomalus]

I will probably go Zemina, just for the mining lasers.

 

[Rauminen]

Some of the rewards seem a bit backwards. Archon followers don't need a cytoscrambler, but the pulse disruptor would be a nice auxiliary weapon for a pirate, making fsd/drives/cargo hatches malfunction. Literally no other playstyle has a good use for funking modules up AFTER shields are down. If you aren't robbing someone then by that point you are just trying to explode them ASAP...

Hm, I don't know about that. I tried pirating in the beta, and one of the issues was keeping them alive while sending over the hatch breakers (and keeping their shields down so the limpets don't go splat)
Having a weapon that only damages shields.... yum. Tasty. When they're empty you can just boost away - assuming you care about minimizing the bounty, or playing "nice".

(Of course if you let them peck at you while you robbing them it's not an issue - however if you've already destroyed their drive... maybe there isn't much hull left to take up the damage getting through when the shields pop)

Edit: just to be clear you have to pop their shields repetadly as hatch breakers won't release all cargo at once, if they did you couldn't pick it all up not even with drones before the containers disintegrate, so you get the drill.

 

[Weylon]

This seems likely to mean that a few Powers (with the best rewards) will get the lions share of players, and thus automatically do really well, while a few Powers with particularly unattractive/niche rewards seem destined to fail (and so be removed from the PowerPlay).

You are assuming that having more players makes a power more likely to survive/succeed. However, powers do not succeed based on the number of players or the number of merits their players generate--they succeed based on the amount of CC they generate. If I join a power for four weeks and my only interest is in acquiring the weapon, I can very well earn merits without helping the power gain CC. How? I can simply spend all of my time undermining and contesting other powers.

For example, lets say my end game is to join Mahon in the Alliance as a miner, but I want the shields from Aisling and the mining laser from Zemina first (both are Imperial). So I pledge to Aisling, then I go to the border between Mahon and the Federation powers and undermine/contest the living daylight out of Hudson and Winters for four weeks. I did not help Aisling gain any CC, because she is too far away from those systems to expand to them, but I did help Mahon by curtailing the growth of his nearby rivals. After I buy the shields, I can switch to Zemina and repeat.

So one can help another power out indirectly, directly hurt other powers, and not help their pledged power all at the same time.

Also, it appears it is really, really hard to completely collapse a power because the smaller a power gets the lower its upkeep cost, and control systems will only revolt when their upkeep goes negative. Furthermore, in beta a single CMDR could make sure the fortify score is reached in a system in a given cycle (which fortifies it or at least keeps the system from being undermined to the point where it drains CC). So it might only take a handful of dedicate players can keep a power around.

 

[RabidRich]

Hm, I don't know about that. I tried pirating in the beta, and one of the issues was keeping them alive while sending over the hatch breakers (and keeping their shields down so t he limpets don't go splat)
Having a weapon that. only damages shields.... yum. Tasty. When they're empty you can just boost away - assuming you care about minimizing the bounty, or playing "nice".

(Of course if you let them peck at you while you robbing them it's not an issue - however if you've already destroyed their drive... maybe there isn't much hull left to take up the damage getting through when the shields pop)

Edit: just to be clear you have to pop their shields repetadly as hatch breakers won't release all cargo at once, if they did you couldn't pick it all up not even with drones before the containers disintegrate, so you get the drill.

With all due respect, it is trivial to use any existing laser weapon to remove shields from prey, without damaging their hull, just watch for the failing shield blue swipe and stop shooting. How hard is that? I do it repeatedly all the time.

 

[[VR] Deggial]

That's why I proposed a game mechanic that counters the effect of more desirable rewards in the beta forum:

What, if powers with less followers would have lowerd merit thresholds for each tier? This might encourage players to choose the smaller power, as it is easier to reach and keep higher tiers and influence the power's strategy.

There are multiple possibilities to implement this:

1) The three powers with the smallest supporter base will benefit from the reduction. For the fifth tier, 10.000, 15.000 and 17.500 merit points might be appropriate. The lower tiers will be reduced accordingly, of course.

2) All players that pledged a power will be summed up. Each power will be evaluated in relation to this total and their merit thresholds will be reduced accordingly. Followers of the largest power will need all 20.000 merit points for tier 5. All powers with less followers will have to gather less: If the second power has 90% of the leader's followers, the threshold for tier 5 will be 18.000 and so on.

I think, this sort of self-regulating feed-back mechanism will help to stabilize the balance of powers and even out unequal power benefits. Additionally, it perfectly reflects that smaler entities are more flexible and higher positions in the organisation easier to reach.

 

[evoelise]

Maybe there's no problem with powers becoming small, maybe they will eventually be subsumed into the larger powers. It could be this is intentional by FD to keep the "simulation" fresh and realistic. This would leave room for new powers to emerge which FD have already said will happen.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

I will probably go Zemina, just for the mining lasers.

Me too :>
Atleast they will be my first and my last.
Of course i will try to get my hands on those who interest me.
These are:
Combat Mining Laser
Enforcer Cannon
Salvo Fire Seeker Launcher
And if im very bored with enough time i will go for the Advanced Accerelator and the Shield. They all sound interesting, but i dont think that most of them fit my miner playstile...i want to cut and nuke!

But my guess would be, that Torval would be one of the most liked (i mean...20% reduced price on mined materials AND iSlaves...imagine the cashflow for those trades)
also i think Duval will be popular due to the 20% increased bounty payout

 

[SentineI]

Hmmm, looks like Frontier removed the special weapons perk of each Power????

- - - Updated - - -

You are assuming that having more players makes a power more likely to survive/succeed. However, powers do not succeed based on the number of players or the number of merits their players generate--they succeed based on the amount of CC they generate.

We shall have to see how it plays out. But I think that more players means a much greater likelyhood of success & thus more CC. Lack of players will certainly mean a power will have great difficulty in defending itself.

 

[tomalus]

I was looking at zemina torval info ingame before the server died, she is like 120years old... the oldest of all leaders.

 

[SentineI]

Hmmm, looks like Frontier removed the special weapons perk of each Power????

I am going to go out on a limb, and say this change will back-fire on Frontier, producing the opposite of their desired outcome. I think Frontier removed the weapon perks to stop people picking powers mainly based upon what rewards they have.... but in reality those weapons made the top 6 powers pretty attractive. IMHO there is now a big risk that people will still pick based on rewards, but there are only 2-4 powers with good rewards now. So the imbalance is even greater :-/

 

[SentineI]

I'm updating this thread to compare my original predictions with how the Powers have actually done in reality. First the current standing of all the Powers:

1. Zachary Hudson
2. Arissa Lavigny-Duval

3. Felicia Winters
4. Edmund Mahon
5. Zemina Torval
6. Aisling Duval

7. Li Yong-Rui
8. Denton Patreus
9. Archon Delaine
10. Pranav Antal

And here's what I said:

Given that it's fairly easy to predict that Arissa Lavigny-Duval & Zachary Hudson will do very well. Archon Delaine might do too, if there are a lot of wanna-be criminals. Edmund Mahon might do well too (depending on how popular Trading is). Zemina Torval may do well due to her Trade boost. Felicia Winters, Aisling Duval & Archon Delaine may do well due to their good weapon.

My predictions are even better than what happen in Beta, as both Arissa Lavigny-Duval & Zachary Hudson are in the first 2 spots, as expected because they have such attractive rewards.

I would have expected Edmund Mahon & Zemina Torval to come next 2 spots, so the fact that they are only one place lower (due to Felicia Winters) seems pretty accurate. As with Beta, Archon Delaine still defies my prediction, presumably because his rewards only interest criminals (of which I assume there are too few).

I would have expected Felicia Winters & Aisling Duval to follow the next 2 spots. One does, while the other (Felicia Winters) has done better than I expected.

The remaining spots (except for Archon Delaine) closely match my expectations as well.

In short, PowerPlay's results closely match my predictions that were based upon each Power's rewards. I think this is strong evidence that PowerPlay's results were effectively predetermined due to the rewards being highly unbalanced between different Powers.