Obsidian Ant's "Powerplay Rant"

[Vasious]

Sophists like you are the reason Ant had to spend roughly half his video reminding viewers not to argue semantics.

He uses the example of;
Driving off to the mountains in a car okay because it is the journey - Okay
Flying to behind enemy lines to attack then return to base - Time sink so not okay

That is what prompted me to post.

We have had requests for missions that are more than 1 jump away, and then when we get them they are then labelled as something that no one wants.

"Time sinks have no place in Elite"

What do we want then? If flying the space ship from base to mission objective and back again is a time sink, ie not something we want in Elite?

I am not debating the meaning of a time sink, just using the GOOD and NOT GOOD examples Ant Provided.

Isn't that saying actually we just want an arena game, all action/activity none of this flying from base to target or having to fly back.

Am I not using his definitions he provided in the video?

 

[Mohrgan]

All of this teeth gnashing and we haven't even completed once weekly cycle. Do you think anyone could/should review a long view aspect of the game after days, or hours exploring it? Self importance. Needing to get your word out before anyone else. Stake your place in the Interweb faction machine. It's kind of ridiculous. Even if you played PP in Beta you have seen it for a grand total of 2 weeks.

PP is a overarching, balance of power, struggle that doesn't ask much of an individual, but gives useful rewards. Use it, or avoid it with that in mind. I don;t get people some times.....

 

[Rubbernuke]

Exactly the template I was using.

People say they want a large open world, but no one wants to travel more than 200 Ls to a station, some dont want SC at all, just jump from station to station, the SC drop in was moved from 20 km to 9.5 and even that was described by someone on this forum as literally "the worst torture ever" because it takes 40 seconds.

Missions that take more than one jump, apparently just an evil time sink, what were we thinking when we asked for them?

People say they hate Grinding and Farming and want dynamic living economies but flip out when trade routes don't consistently provide the exact same profit run after run after run, even a drop of 50 CR a ton is decried as a Shadow Nerf aimed are ruining their 'fun' which they call a grind 5 minutes before.

Bounty Hunters want one zone they can sit in endlessly shooting ships (endless because this dynamics living universe would not react to hundreds of pirates being slaughtered for hours on end in one place, nope, always more Elite Anacondas with fat bounties just sitting on the bench waiting for their number to be called), no one wants to get back to base to reload or turn in vouchers, or hunt in different zones or SC or Signal sources or take missions, nope not good for you Cr/HR and if the traders are about CR/HR so are we,.

Heaven forbid anyone die, as it is "hours of grinding wasted" even if they can afford the insurance.

Worse for Combat pilots, they face the greater danger, generally due to one eye being on the target, whilst the other eye is looking at the traders, counting their CR and thee Traders CRs and say "but I want what he has, it is so unfair" because you know millions of credits an hour now is not enough. No mention of fun other that that brass ring of keeping up with the Trader Cr/Hr, cos equity, or is it equality, balancing or fairness or everyone is the same yay!

Everyone is a communist on the internet when it comes to expecting everyone to give them stuff, less so when it is "balancing" the other way, then they are pure hard core libertarians.

I guess I forgot a 10 second respawn timer with no other penalty in my description above, but no doubt that would be argued as too much a time sink and it needs to be two seconds.

Great post. Can't please anyone anymore, and Elite is not for everyone it seems.

 

[Arindor]

So you can still blaze your own trail. What is the point of all these Powerplay threads really?

S

Because it doesn't feel that you can blaze your own trail in ED. AFAIK, you can't choose to undermine PP elements of ED using BB missions. Yes, you can choose a career path and dabble around, but not in a way which makes you the local hero. I'd like to assassinate a general, where the loss of this general would then impact a faction's attempt to take control of a system: i.e. a start a domino effect, one which you could say, "I did that!".

 

[B33 ENN]

He uses the example of;
Driving off to the mountains in a car okay because it is the journey - Okay
Flying to behind enemy lines to attack then return to base - Time sink so not okay

Don't read too much into that. It wasn't a good example given that many mission structures already in the game before Powerplay use the same structure. All delivery or kill missions I've done in 1.2 required me to visit some alternate system and then return to the system of the mission giver to receive payment.

I have no problem with that myself. Any other game I've played does the same thing, from FPS, RPG to ARPG. I think his arguments would have made more sense if he'd planned the video more, so it was a structured discussion rather than a rant, which, let's face it, we know are always emotionally charged rather than rationally reasoned.

Still, take from what he said really in the last ten minutes where he expressed his more relevant and thoughtful sentiment. At that point, you'll note, he actually seemed to reverse his feeling a bit and admit Powerplay might have potential he hasn't seen yet, and only time will tell.

Like all of us, he wants the game to realise its potential but can't overlook its shortcomings, and its only human to struggle with that conflict.

 

[Kramster]

I am disappointed with PP on several levels, while a lot of time has gone into it, it fails to address any existing issues in ED and seems to sit outside of the main game.
.
I was hoping it would address the faction system and rep system which has always felt like a placeholder, the ability to play all sides is unrealistic and is just a lazy system.
.
PP seems to be a tacked on minigame that is optional and appears to have no real purpose beyond its own goals. Others rightly say it is optional which is true but taking part seriously effects the rest of your gameplay and complicates bounties and hostilities which is limiting.
Other mechanics in the game work together and are interchangeable so we can pick and choose what we want to be on a day to day basis, PP does not fit this model for me.
.
Finally, although not strictly part of power play, FD have introduced offline decays in the old faction system which seems to either indicate that they forgot its issues until PP was done or, if I was a cynical man, they thought that those that did not join PP should get their very own time sink. Just to clarify, I am not totally against grind, sinks or decay but not offline and at least with some attempt to make them rewarding.
.
Sadly, I am putting ED back on the shelf for now as I feel that it is heading in the wrong direction or at least for me. I have been a long time supporter and defender of both FD and ED which makes me even more disappointed. For those that are having a blast, good luck and keep eating those fish. I hope that ED moves more towards the type of game it was supposed to be and that I will return

 

[Moosegun]

Exactly the template I was using.

People say they want a large open world, but no one wants to travel more than 200 Ls to a station, some dont want SC at all, just jump from station to station, the SC drop in was moved from 20 km to 9.5 and even that was described by someone on this forum as literally "the worst torture ever" because it takes 40 seconds.

Missions that take more than one jump, apparently just an evil time sink, what were we thinking when we asked for them?

.....

Everyone is a communist on the internet when it comes to expecting everyone to give them stuff, less so when it is "balancing" the other way, then they are pure hard core libertarians.

I guess I forgot a 10 second respawn timer with no other penalty in my description above, but no doubt that would be argued as too much a time sink and it needs to be two seconds.

Excellent post, sums up a lot of my thoughts about the impossible task of trying to placate a playerbase who seem to want so many different things.

I am disappointed with PP on several levels, while a lot of time has gone into it, it fails to address any existing issues in ED and seems to sit outside of the main game.
.
I was hoping it would address the faction system and rep system which has always felt like a placeholder, the ability to play all sides is unrealistic and is just a lazy system.

The jury is still out for me regarding PP I am hoping that further down the line when certain power start to take control we might see other teaming up and some actual politics coming out of it, I am not holding my breath though. Also TOTALLY agree about the crazy situation with reputation. I cannot understand why your main faction rank and PP rep seem to be completely seperate. I was flying around an empire zone yesterday, all the imperial ship (which I was shooting) were showing green, yet the zone was hostile as I support Hudson. Surely by choosing to support Hudson I should instantly lose my rating with the imperials. It just felt completely wrong.

 

[Draggin]

Salute Commanders!

All I can say in response to the OP and the video is: I PLAY this game. I don't need to watch a video of someone explaining to me the meaning of words of what PP is.
Please tell me... WHAT the HECK is the use in this thread? To discuss CMDR Obvious telling us what we already know? Dang Commanders! Comon!

If something is a first step, FD will improve it. If something is a failure... I am sure FD will change it. NOONE has seen a tiny bit of outcome from PP yet. My gosh, give it/them (FD a chance).

 

[Kramster]

Please tell me... WHAT the HECK is the use in this thread? To discuss CMDR Obvious telling us what we already know? Dang Commanders! Comon!

If something is a first step, FD will improve it. If something is a failure... I am sure FD will change it. NOONE has seen a tiny bit of outcome from PP yet. My gosh, give it/them (FD a chance).

Yet without feedback and customer opinions on likes and dislikes then how will they know what to improve or change?
Players often have valid points to make and you are not their target audience, this is a place for constructive debate and a forum via which to express concerns and ideas to the developer.

 

[steevaavoo]

Hey Obsidianant (assuming you see this!)

Interesting video. You have an impressively balanced perspective and put across your points very well.

I remember well all of the things you mention that David and the team talked about in the early days prior to release.

I got so excited about the prospect of a mining resource being discovered, exploited, blockaded - so that we could either run the blockade, fight it or join it - station built, delivery missions generated, dignitary visits then assassination missions.

ALSO the talk about heat dynamics where hotter ships would show up more obviously on the radar and attract more attention.

I won't go into the original Galaxy Map and Orrery designs, or the originally planned fuel and exploration mechanics...

As much as I find ED fun right now (though I became a little tired of it recently - which I attribute to my general lack of goal in-game), I really feel a little bit sad when I consider what the game was supposed to be.

I sincerely hope that it will actually grow into that wonderful vision. Though would it now require too much of an overhaul to the background sim as to be utterly untenable?

Well, hope is better than no hope. I'm not giving up, and I'm certainly going to keep playing.

Fingers crossed

 

[HeimdallofHavn]

Fantastic post Vasious.

 

[Viajero]

Exactly the template I was using.

People say they want a large open world, but no one wants to travel more than 200 Ls to a station, some dont want SC at all, just jump from station to station, the SC drop in was moved from 20 km to 9.5 and even that was described by someone on this forum as literally "the worst torture ever" because it takes 40 seconds.

Missions that take more than one jump, apparently just an evil time sink, what were we thinking when we asked for them?

People say they hate Grinding and Farming and want dynamic living economies but flip out when trade routes don't consistently provide the exact same profit run after run after run, even a drop of 50 CR a ton is decried as a Shadow Nerf aimed are ruining their 'fun' which they call a grind 5 minutes before.

Bounty Hunters want one zone they can sit in endlessly shooting ships (endless because this dynamics living universe would not react to hundreds of pirates being slaughtered for hours on end in one place, nope, always more Elite Anacondas with fat bounties just sitting on the bench waiting for their number to be called), no one wants to get back to base to reload or turn in vouchers, or hunt in different zones or SC or Signal sources or take missions, nope not good for you Cr/HR and if the traders are about CR/HR so are we,.

Heaven forbid anyone die, as it is "hours of grinding wasted" even if they can afford the insurance.

Worse for Combat pilots, they face the greater danger, generally due to one eye being on the target, whilst the other eye is looking at the traders, counting their CR and thee Traders CRs and say "but I want what he has, it is so unfair" because you know millions of credits an hour now is not enough. No mention of fun other that that brass ring of keeping up with the Trader Cr/Hr, cos equity, or is it equality, balancing or fairness or everyone is the same yay!

Everyone is a communist on the internet when it comes to expecting everyone to give them stuff, less so when it is "balancing" the other way, then they are pure hard core libertarians.

I guess I forgot a 10 second respawn timer with no other penalty in my description above, but no doubt that would be argued as too much a time sink and it needs to be two seconds.

So much this. Well put sir.

 

[Scudmungus]

I n I be wanting less communists, more anarchist - Don Chomsky style, not cartoon anarchists.

Ya know, so each be responsible for own entertainment - and dev mons job to provide tools to build and develop said entertainment

 

[Ekar]

So much this. Well put sir.

That's just taking various contrasting opinions to present the illusion that individual players don't know what they want or expect from the game. The video is about something different, which is how the game was described to backers about how the game would work, what players bought into... and the post impementation of that which is something very different currently. How many times did we hear that FD were making the game they wanted to make? The prerelease outline is still the game I and many others want to play (I would bet a great majority) but nobody is playing that game.

What, you don't want interesting and emergent gameplay, truly dynamic and evolving galaxy, proper demand/supply chain which reacts to new resource nodes being discovered, etc etc?

[video=youtube;pWdd6_ZxX8c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c[/video]

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I certainly will use some of the point raised to improve my videos (and make them much shorter!)

Interesting watch


I do disagree that we should do away with the travel when it comes to the Military strike example.
As he said the Lore and distances of the Galaxy make it fitting
We get calls on the forums for missions that are more than 1 jump away, and then when we get them they are then labelled as something that no one wants.
"Time sinks have no place in Elite" so why have more than one system?
Why have any travel, just go to the jump to location and be done with it.
2 station and a list of "locations" that provide each their own activity
You can trade item a from station and to station B, and item B from station B to station A. Traders sorted
Have one RES of endless Pirates and miner, to bounty hunt and Pirate
One CZ with endless ships.
That is all we need,
Jump via a menu option.
Done
No time sinks, no travel time.

Just to address this. And I already made it clear in the video the difference between spending time travelling and wasting time on a "time-sink". However, I will try to make that clearer. I am an explorer in Elite, I spend most of my time travelling from system to system. I'm totally fine with that, and don't consider it a time sink. I want to get from point A to point B, that takes time. If I want to go down the town to buy some coffee, I need to go from A to B, that is going to take time. Any game needs that to give it a sense of scale. Elite needs tons of travelling time because the galaxy is huge. All of that makes sense.

What I don't like is "time-sinks" which "steal" that time. It's like my wife sending me down the shop to buy some coffee, but telling me I have to make 3 trips. The first trip I have to go out and get the cash, and then bring it back to her so she can check I have the correct amount. The second trip I have to head to the shop to get a list of what coffee they sell, and then bring this list back to her. The third trip I go and buy the coffee. This is a time-sink and is exactly what Powerplay is making me doing when I have to needlessly travel 50+ Light years to hand in some merits only to then return to my initial location.

I have no problem with travelling in Elite, it is my main activity. I do it all the time! But I don't like being sent somewhere for no reason other than "Simon Says go to system A".

- - - Updated - - -

That's just taking various contrasting opinions to present the illusion that individual players don't know what they want or expect from the game. The video is about something different, which is how the game was described to backers about how the game would work, what players bought into... and the post impementation of that which is something very different currently. How many times did we hear that FD were making the game they wanted to make? The prerelease outline is still the game I and many others want to play (I would bet a great majority) but nobody is playing that game.

What, you don't want interesting and emergent gameplay, truly dynamic and evolving galaxy, proper demand/supply chain which reacts to new resource nodes being discovered, etc etc?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

Exactly this!

Taking 10 opinions from 10 people and then presenting them in a manner that suggests "individuals don't know what they want, because these 10 opinions from 10 different people are different.", is not an argument.

But I'm really impressed that this thread has stayed on topic and didn't descend into a discussion on semantics. Hopefully I haven't broken that trend by making this post.

But yes, my video is there to highlight the differences between what Frontier and David Braben said Elite was going to be, when compared to what we actually have in Powerplay. Two very different things. But Powerplay does add a lot of good to Elite, and perhaps it also provides the potential to unlock all those things Frontier promised Elite would be. Only time will tell, but right now, as Powerplay stands at this precise moment...it is not the game Frontier spoke about. But may be in time it could be...

 

[Deleted member 38366]

--- Deleted ---

 

[dannysquid]

I suspect that Powerplay is the way Powerplay is because it only needed a very small team to implement. Hopefully because everybody else is doing paid expansions.

 

[Vasious]

I guess we shall agree to disagree on if the travel distances in the Power Play missions pickup/action/drop off points are necessary or not to convey the sense of mission ie a time sink or not

 

[Hurricane Moon]

PP was nice when it first came as it was something new to fiddle with....but after a few nights grinding for archon delaine i just had a awakening...

what the hell am i doing?.....wasting time spending my own cash on his merits deliverys so i can get a poxy 5 mil at level 5.....time not an issue for me.

but my god im a billionaire,i simply dont need the thankless grind of these boring text driven factions.



i dont like any of them.......in fact i cant wait until the day comes that a human made faction can take over systems....properly.....and we can re-name the systems to what we see fit.

 

[Kramster]

I suspect that Powerplay is the way Powerplay is because it only needed a very small team to implement. Hopefully because everybody else is doing paid expansions.

I suspect it is because it was easier than trying to integrate complexity into the placeholder faction/rep system without having to worry about effects on the game as a whole or they couldn't figure out how to do it at all within the framework and server model they have built