FAO OF FRONTIER, cheating, clever or just morally reprehensible?

[Wishblend]

If it works it'd clearly be an exploit. Funny you ask, because that's the way goons work; they simply want to * up everybody else's game. A very sick way of having "fun". Game mechanics are what they are intented to be, not the actual implementation (which continuously changes).

I would say, it should be set up so you could sign up for your faction, then have an option in your factions powerplay to work undercover to undermine a different faction like a spy / infiltration effort by secretly signing up to a second power.

The second power will have the option / chance to discover this treachery and then it would act like a defection and send ships to take the infiltrator out.

 

[Zhang]

Simply put, if there is no way for a Power to effectively defend against this type of attack, then you have one of two cases:

1). It's intended, but atrociously bad design. If the design isn't altered to allow some means of defense against this, PP will ultimately be a failure.
2). It's not intended, and therefore an exploit.

+1

Obviously PP was not fully thought out by FD. I'm all for undermining, double agents, fifth columnists, sabotage, backstabbing, etc. BUT there must be counters available.

 

[Metalstardust]

A plan so cunning you could pin a tail on it and call it a fox.

 

[Wolfechu]

Looks to me like a herd of at goons or wannbees have invaded this post to justify themselves.
I guess Eve i has become as boring to them as to the rest of us that used to play.
Shame on F for not anticipating this kind of exploitation of their game mechanics.

When it's something anyone can do, without using a bug or gap in the rules, and FD have said it's behaviour they expect, I think calling it 'exploitation' might require a quick refresher of what that word means in the online dictionary of your choice.

 

[Morbad]

http://puu.sh/iiNSk/cae57a8a03.jpg

The Goons plan to infiltrate Arissa and deliberately prepare negative income system to cripple Arissa's faction from the inside out.

Is this:

A) An exploit of game mechanics.

B) A clever tactic that more people will/should adopt.

C) A tactic that is immoral but shouldn't be considered an exploit.

D) Something else entirely.

A, B, and D.

 

[Sharky]

Well is sabotage also used for selfish means? Like ALD power being forced to take a system that is not in the powers interest (Im talking Vaka here) because the elite dangerous group had it as home base (greed due to good combat system) before powers came in and then went against ALD wishes by pumping 100's of millions into it to get it over the line. Now they have a system in the middle of another powers zone just because they ordered their club members to focus on it. I opposed their tactics and got booted from group for it..lol

 

[Space Dandy]

Legit....As long as there is a mechanic in place for the powers to discover the treachery and hunt the player. Without a system in place for responding to such tactics then it is exploiting a game mechanic IMHO.

I think it is an exploit due to unintended use of the mechanics of PP. Like said in the quote here how can this be a legit mechanic if there is no counter?

To me this is like playing a mmo where there are factions, that can't talk to each other in game, where people have guilds in "opposing factions" that use a 3rd party voice system to farm points by taking turns on who wins the faction conflict.

Right now we have one character(save) per game account but even if a character becomes known as a spy there is no way for factions to keep them from doing this over and over etc even though everyone and their dogs know what they are doing.

Smells of exploiting to me, I would even say it is far far worse than the whole shield regens 100% instantly when entering SC.

I think this completely ruins the intent of PP.

 

[persephonius]

I think effectively, every one that is doing something productive for their power is the counter for people that try to sabotage it by preparing systems that will generate negative income. The sheer numbers of people doing constructive things should essentially drown out the effects of the saboteur.
.

Though, there should be a means of effectively removing a negative income system that is controlled and which the majority of players in the power do not desire to control at the beginning of every cycle via a vote perhaps. So then the work of the saboteur is removed like shedding dead skin. I believe this makes sense from a gameplay perspective as well. When players prepare and expand into a system that generates negative income, the power itself would be foolish to take it.

 

[Xananan]

Goons were the guys that made nullsec boring right?


Oh yeah, thread. Theres no mechanics against it, don't like it one bit. Dunno if you'd call it illegitimate though, I'd just like FD to think of a way to solve this issue but they probably wont until a month or two from now if ever.

 

[NVNM]

Seems to me people are vastly overestimating the manpower goons have in this game.

Plus crying about it only gives them more of an incentive. I bet they are already posting choice quotes from this thread over on SA.

 

[Wolfechu]

Seems to me people are vastly overestimating the manpower goons have in this game.

Plus crying about it only gives them more of an incentive. I bet they are already posting choice quotes from this thread over on SA.

Not really much point, we can read it over here. You're right though, the 'legions of goons' thing is vastly overestimated. You also need to take into account the inherently lazy nature of the beast, and the way that if you give two goons a rope, they'll automatically pull in opposite directions. Or argue about the finer points of ropemaking.

So out of curiousity, we're into week two here, the effects of powerplay should be emerging in the stats, has the Goon behemoth had any effect on Arissa? Sorry I have to ask here, but as your intelligence sources will confirm, no-one over on the SA Forums has bothered mentioned it for days, except in a self-mocking tone.

You'd think a concerted effort would have, how did someone put it - "make the game collapse" by now.

Of course, this post could be an elaborate false flag designed to put people at their ease - or perhaps the 'leaked' post was. Perhaps it's an elaborate double-bluff, to make people twitchy. Who knows? If goons are prepared to join factions to hinder their efforts, who knows how far through the looking glass you are at this point.

Oh, I've never actually answered the question, so D) A mix of the three previous options: A clever tactic that is most likely immoral, but that most people won't bother adopting as it turns out to be more bother than it's worth.

 

[NVNM]

The question of an action in a game about spacemans doing space things being moral or not seems to be a little misguided to begin with. We're talking about manipulating mechanics here, not blackmailing someone. (Something which has, by the way, happened more than once in EvE's incredible meta game.)

 

[Wolfechu]

The question of an action in a game about spacemans doing space things being moral or not seems to be a little misguided to begin with. We're talking about manipulating mechanics here, not blackmailing someone. (Something which has, by the way, happened more than once in EvE's incredible meta game.)

Well, I was thinking in-game morality (much like you could question, say, the morality of being a pirate in Elite), rather than anything IRL, but point taken. Never played EVE, no idea of whatever happened over there. Never really figured it relevant, much in the same way I wouldn't compare Minecraft to Elite, and how goons probably contributed to a lot of its popularity with million-plus youtube videos. I imagine they're very different games, besides being shooty-spaceship things.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

(As posted in another 5th column thread) This post by MB today clearly states that at least for now FDev consider this 5th column sabotage to be a "working as intended" gameplay mechanic:

Hi everyone,

The Powerplay update is now out in the wild and it’s great to see large numbers of players backing their chosen powers – although I am a little disappointed that more of you haven’t backed Archon Delaine! It is interesting to see the various strategies and schemes people are employing to support their power or sabotage the opposition.


Michael

- - - Updated - - -

I think effectively, every one that is doing something productive for their power is the counter for people that try to sabotage it by preparing systems that will generate negative income. The sheer numbers of people doing constructive things should essentially drown out the effects of the saboteur.

Don't bet on that if all the "I've had enough of wasting my time with PP / I'm not going to participate anymore" type posts are anything to go by.

 

[Bub]

Lets say that this is Rome, Ad 198, and Septimius Severus is the Emperor. If anyone knows about him, then you know he doesn't play.
You are, through merit, nominated as a Caesar and are given commend of the Pannonian Legions, the best of the best, to move out the east to defend Nisibis (in modern day Turkey), a border city which the Parthians and later the Persians have coveted.
You make some obviously foolish decisions and Nisibis is razed: it's treasures plundered, the citizens led away to slavery, and the precious Legions were butchered to a man, their bodies found at the ground they defended.
Now your enemy has a foot hold on the border of your Empire. You hear rumors from refugees that the Parthians believe their god Ormuzd has given them back this city in preparation for the Final Judgement on the infidel to the west.
Emboldened by their victory, and with this new conquest, they have a proper staging ground for invasion. They are amassing a host larger than any known to man. Even the Sarmatians have made a pact, and many more Germanic tribes have thrown in as well for glory, plunder, and a chance at revenge against the Mistress of the Mediterranean.
You receive a emissary from Rome. Your Sovereign requires your presence to explain the events of Nisibis...


The point is that in real life if you were a Roman Magistrate, a dept. head for a corporation, or the night head shift manager at the janitorial agency, there would be consequences for your actions. You are held accountable for your decisions.
The janitorial service would fire you, the corporation may sue you or press charges on you, and the Romans, well let's just say that very few received the dignity of the "hot bath".




So what consequences are there for a host of 5th column agents within your ranks that are undermining your empire?
How is it in any way realistic for people to come and go in your faction, and basically set fire to your camps, without any reprisal?

 

[Space Dandy]

Lets say that this is Rome, Ad 198, and Septimius Severus is the Emperor. If anyone knows about him, then you know he doesn't play.
You are, through merit, nominated as a Caesar and are given commend of the Pannonian Legions, the best of the best, to move out the east to defend Nisibis (in modern day Turkey), a border city which the Parthians and later the Persians have coveted.
You make some obviously foolish decisions and Nisibis is razed: it's treasures plundered, the citizens led away to slavery, and the precious Legions were butchered to a man, their bodies found at the ground they defended.
Now your enemy has a foot hold on the border of your Empire. You hear rumors from refugees that the Parthians believe their god Ormuzd has given them back this city in preparation for the Final Judgement on the infidel to the west.
Emboldened by their victory, and with this new conquest, they have a proper staging ground for invasion. They are amassing a host larger than any known to man. Even the Sarmatians have made a pact, and many more Germanic tribes have thrown in as well for glory, plunder, and a chance at revenge against the Mistress of the Mediterranean.
You receive a emissary from Rome. Your Sovereign requires your presence to explain the events of Nisibis...


The point is that in real life if you were a Roman Magistrate, a dept. head for a corporation, or the night head shift manager at the janitorial agency, there would be consequences for your actions. You are held accountable for your decisions.
The janitorial service would fire you, the corporation may sue you or press charges on you, and the Romans, well let's just say that very few received the dignity of the "hot bath".




So what consequences are there for a host of 5th column agents within your ranks that are undermining your empire?
How is it in any way realistic for people to come and go in your faction, and basically set fire to your camps, without any reprisal?

Indeed, Well said!

 

[Elgered]

I would call is sabotage, but not exploit. It simply needs players in all factions doing so, and everything is fine until it breaks

 

[Space Dandy]

I would call is sabotage, but not exploit. It simply needs players in all factions doing so, and everything is fine until it breaks

Even saboteurs, when found out, need to have consequences for their actions which isn't the case here.

 

[stummies]

Just coming back to this thread to change my stance. I originally said I thought this should be allowed, but after some thought and reading I now agree with those that are against the "5th column". PP as it is now is too easy to exploit and damage a faction from within. I can as an infiltrator put effort into systems that will harm the faction, which is much easier to do then fighting other factions the sanctioned way.

 

[Wolfechu]

This, really is the problem. There are zero requirements to join a faction, and zero ways to eject some one from a faction. I don't necessarily feel there should be either of these in the system particularly, but while they're nonexistent, the open door policy is going to allow for fifth columnists, saboteurs, and the like.