What exactly was wrong with the DDA?

I give the devs a bit more credit than that, I think they realise the criticisms and rage are born of fear, fear that the game will become one that we no longer want to play. And not only because this reasoning gets mentioned in every other ragepost...

In my opinion the rage is more coming from having to deal with them since, in my case, last July and closed beta. Problems are put under the carpet, they are unable to even voice what they want to do to their testers and left them blind during the whole beta.
Not even talking about the DDF and stuff, the end result is, after 6 months of official release, the basic mission system still doesn't work. Their network still doesn't work under load.
I don't think getting the rewards from my missions is exactly asking for the moon. And instead of fixing it, they add content that is as bugged as the rest.
I really do wish they succeed in making this game great, but the longer I play, the more I feel like this is becoming more religion than reason. That last year has not been good for the progress of the game.
I'm not sure console players are really going to accept that level of un-finishness, their tolerance is way lower.
 
Would it not have made more sense for Tier 1 characters to be the figureheads/opposition leaders of each super power and leaders each minor faction in individual systems though - rather than adding in an unnecessary intermediate 'powers' layer? There would be many thousands of them, sure, and you would need procedural generation to create them, which would mean that some would moan that characters where all 'samey' but with decent portraits and distinguishable character traits I think it could be done (e.g. points at Crusader Kings 2).

Thousands of them. and procedurally generated = Sounds like Tier 2 to me.

I thought it was pretty clear from the outset that Tier 1 referred to manually scripted and curated story-important people.
 
Personally I don't think so.

Only three main factions would give to little choice IMO. Thousands would give too much and become to generic.

I don't think this layer is "unnecessary" at all and it also creates more interesting variation and potential outcomes rather than having the "good guys", the "bad guys" and the "neutral alternative".

Maybe it's just because I like Game of Thrones so much, but this feels much more "alive" too me. People don't really pledge to a nation in real life, they pledge to a person or specific cause. That is what the Powers are for.

I'll point again at Crusader Kings 2, which has a cast of thousands, and a great Game of Thrones total conversion. They could have also implemented 'pledging' to minor factions, with incorporation of minor faction-specific missions via the bulletin board. Local 'Powers' would rise eventually out of the minor factions, rather than being artificially hand-placed. Another alternative would have been seeding the game with minor factions having a presence in 10's or 100's of systems from the get go.
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It might have been better if Frontier had just hand-crafted a few hundred human systems, with a more detailed political/economic simulation of those systems on a more manageable scale, and left the rest of the proc-gen. universe to the explorers. I think they made a rod for their own backs (and their poor server's backs ;) ) by making human space so large, with so many systems populated.
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*Edit* I also think they messed up by allowing free trading and military rank gaining with all three major factions. Gaining a rank, or trading with one of the superpowers or affiliated minor faction, should be detrimental to how the other two factions perceive you.
 
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DDF was not the designer of the game. Just a room of debates for express ideas, opinions. Frontier has always said that they make the game that they want to play

So this describes exactly why the problem's the game has exists... the attitude of the authors.
 
Anyway. All of this could be pretty much summed up with the rhetorical question: 'idealism meets capitalism in the corporate environment - who wins?' :D
 
I think what annoys a lot of us on the DDF are a lot of the absolutely most desired things seem to us on the outside to be pretty low-hanging fruit. Stuff like shipnaming, tier 2 NPCs, ship character sheets.

So we're pretty bemused as to why this 'desperate to have, but (seemingly) simple' stuff hasn't been implemented.

Re: Frontier listening to us privileged few who backed the game:

a) Without us there would be no game

But that's irrelevant because:

b) They haven't listened to us in ages and we've effectively been shut down since Alpha. (We tend to think since game release, but interaction stopped with the 'DDF and Alpha' post in January 2014, after that we were just thrown the odd bone).
 
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They have not been abandoned (and more of it has been implemented than some seem to give FD credit for).

Wings was described (with a different name back then) in the DDF. It has been implemented.

Secondary benefits of wings, the ability for NPCs to form wings of their own, also lays the groundwork for us players to hire NPC wingmen as described in the DDF. Something that I think isn't to far off.

The powers is pretty much Tier 1 NPCs from the DDF.

It has now been implemented.

Newsfeeds was part of the DDF. Improvements to these were made in 1.3.

The mining improvements (drones) in 1.3 can be found in the DDF mining proposal. They have now been implemented.

The list goes on...

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There is absolutely no reason for FD to abandon their own design documents. Assuming that they have isn't reasonable IMO. There will certainly be alterations, changes and improvements due to the evolving nature of the game, but at the core they are still a foundation for what to do going forward even if FD might not agree with everyone in which order these things should be tackled (including me).

Thankyou for destroying the original OP post main point, I thought I was going to have to spend the next hour doing it.
 
I wasn't part of the DDA/DDF, but I've made a lot of games at a lot of different companies and it sounds to me like FDev may be staying truer to the design docs and agreed vision than is actually normal in the industry. By the time a game is released, it has departed significantly from its design documents and vision. Always. It's a natural part of the process of weaving complex structures out of complex sub-structures that did not previously exist.

I suspect this discussion is partly fueled by there being insufficient common frame of reference for what "staying true to the design" would mean to a game studio, vs how a gamer might interpret that. :S
 
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I wasn't part of the DDA/DDF...

Neither was I, but I occasionally go to look at it...

I suspect this discussion is partly fueled by there being insufficient common frame of reference for what "staying true to the design" would mean to a game studio, vs how a gamer might interpret that. :S

For my part, I just want the depth of gameplay to reflect a game released in 2014, not one which was already becoming dated in the early nineties. :(

Don't get me wrong, when I was a kid, Elite was the second biggest gaming experience of my life after Asteroids and made me a gamer. So I love the visually gorgeous nostalgia trip we have now, but I'd also like to have fun playing it as a modern game and capitalise on this huge multiplayer always-on persistent universe. Instead, they've built a game that has less depth and variety than most single-player game experiences I've had, including open-world ones.

I mean, here is this massive accurately modelled universe and the most fun I can have in it is popping to any nearby local ring system and repeatedly and churning RES ships; because pretty much everything else gets tedious after a short time; because it's based on grind and time-sink mechanics, rather than exciting multi-level game play.

Everything is disconnected, small pockets of instanced realities, which have little impact on anything but a few stats bars in your profile. Now we have Powerplay, and it makes no sense in relation to the existing Major Factions I've worked my way up with, and doesn't correlate at all to my ranks with them. If I go on, this will be rant, so I'll leave it here.
 
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We are steering (way) off-topic here...but one last post before I'll head to bed. ;)

I'll point again at Crusader Kings 2, which has a cast of thousands, and a great Game of Thrones total conversion. They could have also implemented 'pledging' to minor factions, with incorporation of minor faction-specific missions via the bulletin board. Local 'Powers' would rise eventually out of the minor factions, rather than being artificially hand-placed. Another alternative would have been seeding the game with minor factions having a presence in 10's or 100's of systems from the get go.

Several these Powers did have a presence from the get go in the Galnet newsfeeds.

Powers can still rise from the minor factions if they grow strong enough according to Michael. I'm sure people will make that happen eventually. ;)

There are certainly specific aspects of Powerplay that could be improved in many ways, just like anything else in the game, more varied missions and a tighter integration with the rest of the game being one of these things. The core system they have put in place is good though IMO.

It might have been better if Frontier had just hand-crafted a few hundred human systems, with a more detailed political/economic simulation of those systems on a more manageable scale, and left the rest of the proc-gen. universe to the explorers. I think they made a rod for their own backs (and their poor server's backs ;) ) by making human space so large, with so many systems populated.

Maybe, but the game would have needed to be able to scale up anyway since the Galaxy is the size it is. Star Citizen has it much easier in this regard since they can "close off" the gameworld in many ways. A set number of systems and "enclosed" areas that the players can move around. Something that goes against the whole idea of Elite as I see it. Having the gameworld being as big as it is in ED is without doubt the biggest challenge they are facing across the board, but that is a challenge they should face head on, not hide away from by doing the "easy thing".

*Edit* I also think they messed up by allowing free trading and military rank gaining with all three major factions. Gaining a rank, or trading with one of the superpowers or affiliated minor faction, should be detrimental to how the other two factions perceive you.

Never really seen the issue here really. As long as the two main factions aren't officially at war they can't really complain too much about freelance workers (us) doing work wherever we see fit. Keep in mind that we haven't really joined their military. We're just contractors.

If anything Powerplay will probably "solve" this naturally. If someone pledges to a Federation Power they will eventually clash against another Power that will be aligned the Empire (or Alliance/Independent). As the different Powers interests might conflict you will naturally be forced into a position where you need to pick a side doing things that is positive for one side and negative for the other. This will the result in raised/lowered standing according to your actions.
 
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As a relatively new player (harder to hear about a UK game like this in the US), I read all the old background sim proposals on the old archives forum, and for the first few weeks of playing the game I was very confused, mainly because almost none of the proposed depth is actually implemented.
 
Posted this elsewhere, has some points relevant to what I think you're asking here, if you're interested:

I've seen that article, and others like it, a number of times, and this is going to sound harsh, but I'm afraid what's said in that interview is the verbal equvalent of what's become known in the gaming industry as a "bullshot". It's an ideal vision of a game they'd like to make, and we'd all love to play, but not a reality they have proven they can deliver, yet still needed you to believe in, in order to get your support.

That's not to say it cannot be done, because many games before Elite: Dangerous already provide elements of that vision on some level, or in some form. Games both outside the space genre, and even within it, such as EVE and X3, that have far more sophisticated gameplay mechanics and player interactions.

However, looking only at those games for a moment, both have evolved from a pedigree over a decade in the making, with a cult following of players and a steady progression of improvement and iteration. This is something Elite: Dangerous doesn't have, yet, but it could. So then, is there a chance that the glorious future Braben speaks to in that interview could become a reality? Yes and no, because both of those depend on time and money:

Time is something that largely depends on how the gaming in the space genre develops over the next few years, and how much competition arises in the meanwhile. There are already a couple of interestingly similar prospects on the horizon in the shape of No Man's Sky and Star Citizen, so Frontier will be acutely aware that the "ten year plan" delivery schedule of the main course of any stated vision is actually a lot less than that to keep existing players motivated, and attract new ones in the near future.

Money is intrinsically part of making that timescale longer or shorter, and so is the monetisation model realistic to produce this masterwork? Well, EVE Online uses a subscription model to fund a highly focussed development effort on its product answering to the monthly needs of its playerbase, and is the second biggest MMO after WoW. EgoSoft has built a solid series in X, with far less resources, that has a cult following since the late nineties, sequel by sequel to get to their finest and most sophisticated product, X3. (Rebirth was a failed console initiative, hurridly re-packaged to the PC market, so let's not got there.)

Elite: Dangerous, on the other hand, is made by small but growing studio that has done anything but a game of this proportion before, and is relying on microtransactions and expansions to fund ongoing development. All of those different approaches share one thing in common, which is that they depend on the size of the maintained playerbase for ongoing success. To that end, Frontier made some controversial and unscheduled decisions in the last year that the community didn't expect either at all, like the Steam release, or so soon, such as the push onto the consoles. It seems then, that they are very much aware they need more sales and a larger playerbase to make anything more than what you are playing right now.

Given the rather unfortunate, but accurate, assessment that the current product is a "mile wide but an inch deep", in terms of its gameplay, the beautiful visual spectacle can only impress a player for so long before the graphics start to look geener elsewhere - let's not forget that this is a game that has less content and sophistication than its own immediate predecessors!

So if the game a) fails to get enough new customers, and b) fails to keep those players invested for the long term (for the repeat business from the micro-transactions and expansions) then the answer is no, you won't likely see much more improvement from Elite: Dangerous past next year, and there will be even more upset forumites here highlighting articles like that one then there are now.

However, Frontier has invested too much into Elite: Dangerous to abandon it to that fate so easily, and the re-ordering of priorities away from the DDF is most likely a part of a change in strategy they think is best to garner wider appeal. Yet, Elite: Dangerous will only survive in the face of future competition like Star Citizen if it is able to offer a better experience; or if equal, different and unique. So I would also not be surprised if in a year the monetisation model has also changed to accomodate a larger budget and a more sustainable income. In other words, don't rule out a free-to-play or subscription model.

So the current playerbase might be wise to expect more changes to, and deviations from, the grand vision as laid out in the early presentations. Which brings us to the reveal of Powerplay a couple of weeks ago, with its perceived convoluted disconnection to the existing game. However, looking beneath the vaneer of a 90's game on top of what looks like an online boardgame, the fact is they've created a mechanism that can fundamentally change the attributes of systems within the galaxy based on player actions.

Even if right now those actions seem familiarly simplistic, being altogether not far removed nor much developed from the missions we've already been used to doing up until now, that doesn't mean the Powerplay engine is not something that is ingeneously scalable in ways we can't appreciate yet. The potential might very well be there to build on it to add far more variety and diversity to gameplay. So does that mean that David's visionary statements about emergent gameplay are coming true?

No, the very fact of the game we are playing right now proves they can't afford that vision yet, and that it was just a statement of an ideal scenario to sell the concept, not a realistic promise that was properly thought out and based on a real technology being developed at the time. Still, Powerplay shows the underlying technical potential is there for something that may slowly start to bring parts of that kind of gameplay to fruition, albeit in a curated and orchestrated way, at least initially.

Interesting point of view... and entirely realistic. I've thought something along these lines myself. I wish FD had gone with a subscription model from the start, it had/has a loyal core playerbase, they would have been able to afford to improve gameplay far faster, and had more room to maneuver in the future. Alas, they didn't, and implementing a subscription model after the fact is damn near impossible, I just hope that if they DO go free to play, that they take care to keep it as an 'aesthetics only' thing. Pay to win would damage the game, and absolutely destroy Frontier's rep. People would consider them barely above the farmville or clash of clans devs...
 
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That is exactly the problem. We were 'sold' a completely different vision. Sure it's their game, but with things like PP it's becoming less of the game I'd want to play.

Yep. I for one sure don't feel I've gotten the game they promised us when we backed it. We got "a" game, but it's not "the" game.
 
So I simply ask: why? What possible benefit does this change of heart have for FD? On their current course it seems more likely to drive away it's most loyal players and leave them with notoriously disloyal MMO grinders

I welcome all points provided they are reasoned, and not just blind statements of opinion or insults...
Since when have MMO grinders been disloyal. Isnt this both a statement of opinion and an insult? I am not a massive MMO grinders but from my own experience and that of many MMO players I know they are MASSIVELY LOYAL to the games they play. Love it or hate it WoW is the ultimate example of that, as is EvE. Even more so the huge number of smaller MMO which many believe are 'dead' but still have hardcore playerbase which keep them going. I was still playing Warhammer online about 5 years after it was wildly regarded as finished.
 
Since when have MMO grinders been disloyal. Isnt this both a statement of opinion and an insult? I am not a massive MMO grinders but from my own experience and that of many MMO players I know they are MASSIVELY LOYAL to the games they play. Love it or hate it WoW is the ultimate example of that, as is EvE. Even more so the huge number of smaller MMO which many believe are 'dead' but still have hardcore playerbase which keep them going. I was still playing Warhammer online about 5 years after it was wildly regarded as finished.

Again, this is based on what I have seen and heard in other games in the past, so it is an opinion that is born of a supported by some degree of fact, albeit a limited perspective, small sample of it.

As for an insult, perhaps it could have been phrased differently, but I thought disloyal got the point across. Many MMO gamers who try new games (as opposed to those who, like you say, are extremely loyal to their chosen game, wow, eve etc) often try MANY new games, and rarely stay. I've known lots of these types of gamers in real life, I call them gaming butterflies.

They'll stay, drink some nectar, and then be curious about another game and flutter off...
 
Again, this is based on what I have seen and heard in other games in the past, so it is an opinion that is born of a supported by some degree of fact, albeit a limited perspective, small sample of it.

As for an insult, perhaps it could have been phrased differently, but I thought disloyal got the point across. Many MMO gamers who try new games (as opposed to those who, like you say, are extremely loyal to their chosen game, wow, eve etc) often try MANY new games, and rarely stay. I've known lots of these types of gamers in real life, I call them gaming butterflies.

They'll stay, drink some nectar, and then be curious about another game and flutter off...
This is true of any gamers though, infact any person, not sure the MMO label has any relevance to be honest. As I have mentioned, there are MMOs out there whose player participation and retention figures are as good any any game every made.
 
This is true of any gamers though, infact any person, not sure the MMO label has any relevance to be honest. As I have mentioned, there are MMOs out there whose player participation and retention figures are as good any any game every made.

Fair enough. The point wasn't focused on the MMO gamer attraction, so much as the rejection of their existing fanbase. And the lack of any attempt to expand that fanbase from those who feel the game needs more depth by...well...adding more depth. Instead they went to a playstyle that directly contradicts the rest of their game's style...

It seems an odd choice, and one I'm hoping was implemented to appease gamers looking for more 'end game content' while they work on more things from the DDA. Their next update will be crucial in showing their intended direction for the game.
 
Helping FD design such a great game was enormous fun.

So it is especially annoying that they are building a different one.

As for why - well we are all guessing. FD have not told us, and I doubt that they will. I suspect that at least some part of it is that they have an awful lot to do, and so do not feel they need to ask us about anything else. I disagree with that, of course, and I'm sure that waving the designs for, say, powerplay at the DDF would have saved them significant development effort. They did not pass the designs for any extensions past the DDF, so I fear for those.

Of course, I don't think that they have necessarily abandoned stuff in the DDA. There will undoubtedly be some things they have changed their minds on. But from where we sit, we cannot easily distinguish between 'dropped the idea' and 'not got round to it yet'. So there are features like having NPCs in your wing (plus the support stuff like advertising for wingmen) that I have every expectation of seeing at some stage. Much of the grand design for exploration will be hard to put on top of the simplistic placeholder that we have now. So they may give up (which would be sad) or roll all exploration back (think of the whining that would cause), but are more likely to do some sort of bodge which doesn't quite fit, and does not really satisfy.

Once the DDA settled, there was no way that was all going to get done in a year and a half, it's a 3-4 year job realistically, and they're about halfway through, and we've got about half of what was there. No plan ever survives contact with reality, but if we get at least 75% of the DDA, we'll have done remarkably well out of the whole thing. Freelancer's Persistent Universe was sacrificed at the Altar of the Accountants, and while the game was still good, it wasn't anywhere near the scope of what was on the table, and we've got about half of what we asked/paid/contributed to so far with Elite. If they need more cash, there'll be more paint skins.

Powerplay feels like an own-goal at the moment, but even the best teams should be excused from that from time to time. As long as the next one or two aren't own-goals.

The real hell to pay will be if they can't do one of the expansion packs properly.
 
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Once the DDA settled, there was no way that was all going to get done in a year and a half, it's a 3-4 year job realistically, and they're about halfway through, and we've got about half of what was there. No plan ever survives contact with reality, but if we get at least 75% of the DDA, we'll have done remarkably well out of the whole thing. Freelancer's Persistent Universe was sacrificed at the Altar of the Accountants, and while the game was still good, it wasn't anywhere near the scope of what was on the table, and we've got about half of what we asked/paid/contributed to so far. If they need more cash, there'll be more paint skins.

The real hell to pay will be if they can't do one of the expansion packs properly.
Sacrificed at the altar of accountants. What a tragedy. What a missed opportunity. I only hope that it is a temporary sacrifice so that the ambitious vision can eventually delivered. Otherwise it is just another Lotro, ESO, or even Settlers Online.
 
It's the depth from the DDF that's missing. Mining piracy even trading to a certain degree. But its most clearly highlighted in Exploration... both in system and out of system is just soulless. For a space game there's little to discover for the majority of players.

I know there are real exploration geeks here that love jumping from system to system scanning everything nd they love it but for the regular player it's just boring I think. It certainly doesn't make me want to get out there and do it which is a shame for a space game, think if FD suspended reality a little more and used their imagination in the exploration design it would be good. Star Citizen looks to be really forging this ethos.
 
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