What exactly was wrong with the DDA?

I feel like I've got to ask. These massively respected documents contained a crowdsourced vision of what your (FD's) future customers actually want in the game. Most companies would kill for this information.

And yet, more and more, they seem to be ignored and pushed aside for a very different type of gameplay.

So I simply ask: why? What possible benefit does this change of heart have for FD? On their current course it seems more likely to drive away it's most loyal players and leave them with notoriously disloyal MMO grinders, who will move on to a new game in a few months.

That would probably leave no-one loyal enough to buy expansions or skins for a game that has diverted course so radically, certainly...

I so dearly hope that 1.4 proves me wrong and we get the emergent gameplay, working professions, balanced weapons/combat and depth that we have collectively been waiting for. At least a hint of it. A hint would do. Show us you're still on that track.

As for the DDA, why do you all think it is (seemingly) being abandoned? Or do you disagree?

I welcome all points provided they are reasoned, and not just blind statements of opinion or insults...

Being a game dev must be one of the hardest jobs. You can never please everyone, things rarely goto plan and you spend months and months working on something for it to be slammed by everyone cos there basically a big bunch of whiners that think the devs are there just to serve there individual needs. Its not a job id like to do.

They have my money theres not much i can do about that, i cant say im exactly happy with what i got but theres not much i can do about that either so im just gonna chill and see where it goes. Its not as if there going to take any more money from me.

Yes some part of me wants to rage at them and post a million and 1 threads about how im not happy waah waah but with the amount of hate the devs get i wouldnt want to listen to the players either.
 
Being a game dev must be one of the hardest jobs. You can never please everyone, things rarely goto plan and you spend months and months working on something for it to be slammed by everyone cos there basically a big bunch of whiners that think the devs are there just to serve there individual needs. Its not a job id like to do.

They have my money theres not much i can do about that, i cant say im exactly happy with what i got but theres not much i can do about that either so im just gonna chill and see where it goes. Its not as if there going to take any more money from me.

Yes some part of me wants to rage at them and post a million and 1 threads about how im not happy waah waah but with the amount of hate the devs get i wouldnt want to listen to the players either.

I give the devs a bit more credit than that, I think they realise the criticisms and rage are born of fear, fear that the game will become one that we no longer want to play. And not only because this reasoning gets mentioned in every other ragepost...
 
I agree with the OP, the DDA is a fantastic document and it lays out a fantastic vision of where the game could go. I re-read it the other day and as I read it I was thinking 'Yep, that's good. Yep, that's good. Yep, that's good'

I can see why some things were dropped but on the whole it describes the game I want to play.

Somehow the game seems to have taken a turn in the wrong direction and is straying further and further away from the excellent ideas set out in the DDA
 
I agree with the OP, the DDA is a fantastic document and it lays out a fantastic vision of where the game could go. I re-read it the other day and as I read it I was thinking 'Yep, that's good. Yep, that's good. Yep, that's good'

I can see why some things were dropped but on the whole it describes the game I want to play.

Somehow the game seems to have taken a turn in the wrong direction and is straying further and further away from the excellent ideas set out in the DDA

Honestly, if PP is meant to be yet more groundwork, and the missions are placeholders, I'm not so sure I mind it. Tier 5 cr reward is a bit exploitable, and if any modules turn out to be OP obviously that's a dealbreaker, but FD have said they would make sure that didn't happen. As groundwork for a more detailed system it's not bad (though it could use more direct integrating with the system influence mechanics).

Just a shame they're laying more groundwork instead of adding depth. I think most people would rather more depth than yet more inch deep groundwork...
 
The entire discussion maybe could be obsolete if we knew what parts of the DDA really are still on that infamous "list" or if there was more communication about the tings we'll be eagerly waiting for.
I see PowerPlay as some kind of experiment between the development steps.
 
I've said this before, but for me the most significant change was when the Ministry Of Truth silently memory-holed the word "decision" from Design Decision Forum and retconned it into the Design Discussion Forum, later Archive. Until that point the documents were almost a roadmap for the ongoing development of the game, created by the developers and ratified -- even overturned on rare occasion -- by the DDF. But the change relegated them to a mere wishlist, with no more solid bearing on the game's future direction than any other bunch of messages archived on these forums.

Fortunately the Kickstarter page is out of FD's control and so anyone looking at the historic list of pledge rewards and comments can see that we weren't always at war with Eastasia.

Although PP hasn't really engaged me I do still enjoy ED for what it is; an updated, slickly presented take on the Frontier universe. But of the features represented in the effectively abandoned DDF/DDA I suspect we'll be lucky if 10% of them see the light of day in an even remotely recognisable form.

Whether FD bit off more than they could chew with those highly detailed proposals, or simply don't have the resources to take all of them from inception to execution in a reasonable time-scale while also working on SPL and other paid expansions, we may never know. But for anyone still treating the DDA documents as a promise of what's to come, I fear you will be disappointed. I now look at them as more of a "what could have been" than a "what will be" and regard any feature that does come out of them as a bonus.
 
...So I simply ask: why? What possible benefit does this change of heart have for FD? On their current course it seems more likely to drive away it's most loyal players and leave them with notoriously disloyal MMO grinders, who will move on to a new game in a few months.

That would probably leave no-one loyal enough to buy expansions or skins for a game that has diverted course so radically, certainly... As for the DDA, why do you all think it is (seemingly) being abandoned? Or do you disagree? I welcome all points provided they are reasoned, and not just blind statements of opinion or insults...

Posted this elsewhere, has some points relevant to what I think you're asking here, if you're interested:

I've seen that article, and others like it, a number of times, and this is going to sound harsh, but I'm afraid what's said in that interview is the verbal equvalent of what's become known in the gaming industry as a "bullshot". It's an ideal vision of a game they'd like to make, and we'd all love to play, but not a reality they have proven they can deliver, yet still needed you to believe in, in order to get your support.

That's not to say it cannot be done, because many games before Elite: Dangerous already provide elements of that vision on some level, or in some form. Games both outside the space genre, and even within it, such as EVE and X3, that have far more sophisticated gameplay mechanics and player interactions.

However, looking only at those games for a moment, both have evolved from a pedigree over a decade in the making, with a cult following of players and a steady progression of improvement and iteration. This is something Elite: Dangerous doesn't have, yet, but it could. So then, is there a chance that the glorious future Braben speaks to in that interview could become a reality? Yes and no, because both of those depend on time and money:

Time is something that largely depends on how the gaming in the space genre develops over the next few years, and how much competition arises in the meanwhile. There are already a couple of interestingly similar prospects on the horizon in the shape of No Man's Sky and Star Citizen, so Frontier will be acutely aware that the "ten year plan" delivery schedule of the main course of any stated vision is actually a lot less than that to keep existing players motivated, and attract new ones in the near future.

Money is intrinsically part of making that timescale longer or shorter, and so is the monetisation model realistic to produce this masterwork? Well, EVE Online uses a subscription model to fund a highly focussed development effort on its product answering to the monthly needs of its playerbase, and is the second biggest MMO after WoW. EgoSoft has built a solid series in X, with far less resources, that has a cult following since the late nineties, sequel by sequel to get to their finest and most sophisticated product, X3. (Rebirth was a failed console initiative, hurridly re-packaged to the PC market, so let's not got there.)

Elite: Dangerous, on the other hand, is made by small but growing studio that has done anything but a game of this proportion before, and is relying on microtransactions and expansions to fund ongoing development. All of those different approaches share one thing in common, which is that they depend on the size of the maintained playerbase for ongoing success. To that end, Frontier made some controversial and unscheduled decisions in the last year that the community didn't expect either at all, like the Steam release, or so soon, such as the push onto the consoles. It seems then, that they are very much aware they need more sales and a larger playerbase to make anything more than what you are playing right now.

Given the rather unfortunate, but accurate, assessment that the current product is a "mile wide but an inch deep", in terms of its gameplay, the beautiful visual spectacle can only impress a player for so long before the graphics start to look geener elsewhere - let's not forget that this is a game that has less content and sophistication than its own immediate predecessors!

So if the game a) fails to get enough new customers, and b) fails to keep those players invested for the long term (for the repeat business from the micro-transactions and expansions) then the answer is no, you won't likely see much more improvement from Elite: Dangerous past next year, and there will be even more upset forumites here highlighting articles like that one then there are now.

However, Frontier has invested too much into Elite: Dangerous to abandon it to that fate so easily, and the re-ordering of priorities away from the DDF is most likely a part of a change in strategy they think is best to garner wider appeal. Yet, Elite: Dangerous will only survive in the face of future competition like Star Citizen if it is able to offer a better experience; or if equal, different and unique. So I would also not be surprised if in a year the monetisation model has also changed to accomodate a larger budget and a more sustainable income. In other words, don't rule out a free-to-play or subscription model.

So the current playerbase might be wise to expect more changes to, and deviations from, the grand vision as laid out in the early presentations. Which brings us to the reveal of Powerplay a couple of weeks ago, with its perceived convoluted disconnection to the existing game. However, looking beneath the vaneer of a 90's game on top of what looks like an online boardgame, the fact is they've created a mechanism that can fundamentally change the attributes of systems within the galaxy based on player actions.

Even if right now those actions seem familiarly simplistic, being altogether not far removed nor much developed from the missions we've already been used to doing up until now, that doesn't mean the Powerplay engine is not something that is ingeneously scalable in ways we can't appreciate yet. The potential might very well be there to build on it to add far more variety and diversity to gameplay. So does that mean that David's visionary statements about emergent gameplay are coming true?

No, the very fact of the game we are playing right now proves they can't afford that vision yet, and that it was just a statement of an ideal scenario to sell the concept, not a realistic promise that was properly thought out and based on a real technology being developed at the time. Still, Powerplay shows the underlying technical potential is there for something that may slowly start to bring parts of that kind of gameplay to fruition, albeit in a curated and orchestrated way, at least initially.
 
They have not been abandoned (and more of it has been implemented than some seem to give FD credit for).

Claiming PP is an attempt to implement T1 NPCs is a pretty big stretch of the imagination there Tinman - I certainly don't remember discussinga turn based board game to compliment it either. Such was FD's choice though, and mine to walk away from it.
 
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That is exactly the problem. We were 'sold' a completely different vision. Sure it's their game, but with things like PP it's becoming less of the game I'd want to play.

This hasn't to be a bad thing, because on the other hand it is becoming more and more the game I want to play.
 
There are several things that the DDF covered, now in game. However the DDF was never set in stone, it was always a 'things we want to do' list. I do firmly believe that they wish the DDF wasn't public, as it has become an albatross around their necks - reminding them of what was, and is and what probably won't be.
 
DDF was not the designer of the game. Just a room of debates for express ideas, opinions. Frontier has always said that they make the game that they want to play
 
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Claiming PP is an attempt to implement T1 NPCs is a pretty big stretch of the imagination there Tinman - I certainly don't remember discussinga turn based board game to compliment it either. Such was FD's choice though, and mine to walk away from it.

That's not what I said.

I said that the "powers" themselves, AKA the people we are pledging support to (presidents, crime bosses, corporate CEOs), people that are common to all players but not someone you are in direct contact with, are Tier 1 NPCs.

Let's go through what it says about Tier 1 NPCs in the design document here.

"Tier 1 characters are major characters within the game world" - Check
"...for example Planetary Presidents, Major Corporation CEO’s and top ranking crime bosses." - Check
"There is a global list of tier 1 characters." - Check
"Players do not interact with these characters directly." - Check
"The character is common to all online players." - Check
"The character is created via an in-game invent – typically manually." - Check
"The character can only be killed by an in-game event." - Well, this hasn't happened yet, but presumably can if someone is wiped out from the map more or less.

How is that a stretch?

Tier 1 NPCs could of course be other types too that has smaller "reach" compared the PP ones, for example NPCs like engineer specialists (if we at one point get that procedural weapon/equipment system Mike has mentioned implemented) but that's another question...
 
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ffr

Banned
We all all customers now, not just the entitled few that first bought into the game, and all deserve to be heard equally.

That might be true if all had paid equally.

They didn't.

Many of us paid £300 or more specifically for the right to to be a member of the Design Decision Forum -- and be heard more.
 
There are several things that the DDF covered, now in game. However the DDF was never set in stone, it was always a 'things we want to do' list. I do firmly believe that they wish the DDF wasn't public, as it has become an albatross around their necks - reminding them of what was, and is and what probably won't be.

But that 'albatross' was something that helped to get the initial funding. ;)
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Anyway, I think most sensible people would recognise that, as a product develops, stuff in the original design changes. in Elite's case the most notable issue is/was the failure to reconcile multiplayer with *true* offline single-player. However, I'm over that. :) What I'm not over is a lot of the little details in the DDF/DDA that would have made the universe seem richer to me, though I'm sure people would have moaned about needless complexity (e.g. registration of ship's names) and I'm also sure they're pretty low on the Dev's priorities. I'm also concerned that (IMHO) E: D is still of a 'lesser' game to Frontier: First Encounters, given the lack of mission types, hand-crafted missions, ship variations, bulletin board structure etc. etc. that that game had (aside from the obvious lack of planetary landings...)
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I always thought that Frontier would try to simulate the galaxy and it's factions, and plausible actions for them, first, and then attempt to layer a primarily single player based, 'survey flight-sim-esque' space game, with optional small-scale multiplayer, on top of that. Instead we're going for a WoW/board game that plays lip service to any plausible reality (primarily by allowing players as independent pilots too much freedom of action in how factions behave) to me - which is disappointing.
 
That might be true if all had paid equally.

They didn't.

Many of us paid £300 or more specifically for the right to to be a member of the Design Decision Forum -- and be heard more.

And as Tinman has nicely pointed out, FD is following the DDF with PP pretty strictly.
 
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"Tier 1 characters are major characters within the game world" - Check
"...for example Planetary Presidents, Major Corporation CEO’s and top ranking crime bosses." - Check
"There is a global list of tier 1 characters." - Check
"Players do not interact with these characters directly." - Check
"The character is common to all online players." - Check
"The character is created via an in-game invent – typically manually." - Check
"The character can only be killed by an in-game event." - Well, this hasn't happened yet, but presumably can if someone is wiped out from the map more or less.

Would it not have made more sense for Tier 1 characters to be the figureheads/opposition leaders of each super power and leaders each minor faction in individual systems though - rather than adding in an unnecessary intermediate 'powers' layer? There would be many thousands of them, sure, and you would need procedural generation to create them, which would mean that some would moan that characters where all 'samey' but with decent portraits and distinguishable character traits I think it could be done (e.g. points at Crusader Kings 2).
 
Claiming PP is an attempt to implement T1 NPCs is a pretty big stretch of the imagination there Tinman - I certainly don't remember discussinga turn based board game to compliment it either. Such was FD's choice though, and mine to walk away from it.

The Powers, the way they exist now, aren't tier one anything at all, but they're clearly a usable stepping stone towards such a system as the one described in the persistent NPC's DDF proposal, and as such, I don't see them contradicting previous plans in any major way.
 
And as Tinman has nicely pointed out, FD is following the DDF with PP pretty strictly.

I think another issue is with how things are interpreted. Example: The DDA/DDF talk about 'active' and 'passive' scans, which it could be argued are already in the game - 'passive' being what you get on your contacts list without doing anything, and 'active' meaning you've clicked on the ship to gain more info, or directly initiated a cargo/KWS scan against a ship. However, the description always implied more depth to me, coming from a flight-sim/Harpoon playing background, that there would be an element of choosing when to go active or not to break stealth and give away your position in order to achieve a targeting fix for weapons (see the space game Starshatter for quite a nice implementation of such mechanics, and use of probes and drones to gain targeting fixes whilst remaining passive). I'd really love to see more system depth and complexity and stuff that takes time to learn being added to the game.
 
Would it not have made more sense for Tier 1 characters to be the figureheads/opposition leaders of each super power and leaders each minor faction in individual systems though - rather than adding in an unnecessary intermediate 'powers' layer? There would be many thousands of them, sure, and you would need procedural generation to create them, which would mean that some would moan that characters where all 'samey' but with decent portraits and distinguishable character traits I think it could be done (e.g. points at Crusader Kings 2).

Personally I don't think so.

Only three main factions would give to little choice IMO. Thousands would give too much and become to generic. The numbers we are having now seems like a good balance.

I don't think this layer is "unnecessary" at all and it also creates more interesting variation and potential outcomes rather than having the "good guys", the "bad guys" and the "neutral alternative".

Maybe it's just because I like Game of Thrones so much, but this feels much more "alive" too me. People don't really pledge to a nation in real life, they pledge to a person or specific cause. That is what the Powers are for.
 
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