FAO Frontier: Increase trading dividends or introduce in game money transfer

[rootsrat]

Dear Frontier,

Could you consider increasing the trade dividends % please? The idea came to me last night, after a rare commodities trading run. We've had 2 freighters and 1 fighter escort. We made it from Witchhaul to Wintii, following the well known trade route. We'd be dead if not for the fighter escort, and they've deserved a fair share of the profits indeed. While we (the traders) made just over 1 million credits profit each, the fighter pilot received 50k in trade dividends from each of us. This is only 5% of the profit we've made.

They deserved to be paid fairly though and to achieve that we've had to:

1) Find the nearest Hi Tech system
3) The fighter pilot had to strip their ship out of all the modules in order to fit cargo racks
4) We've had to find a system that exported high-priced commodity like Palladium
5) Do the usual cargo exchange payment
6) They've had to then sell it and
7) Go back to the hi-tech system and re-fit their ship with the previously sold modules (without any guarantee the old modules would all be available to re-buy)

Good thing the module sale penalty was ditched, as it would have complicated things even more.

This is tedious and not very user friendly game mechanic, which disencourages cooperation and hiring protection. Which in effect may result in more people playing it safe in Solo mode rather than treating it as an excellent opportunity to play together.

I can think of 2 solutions to this (I'm sure there are more, but the below 2 are the ones that came to my head):

1) Increase trading dividends so that it's profitable to be a mercenary protecting trading vessel
2) Allow for in game money transfer

I realise there are cons for both. Increased dividends would mean MASSIVE profit increase for Wings of 4 traders. I can imagine the community response if that happened, thus making Wing trading the most profitable profession in the game... Maybe there is a way to make the trade dividends higher only for the fighter ships, while leaving them as is for the trading vessels?

The in game money transfer would potentially be an open invitation to Credit farming and nobody wants that. Not sure how this can be prevented, but then again, a possibility of exploitation and cheating should not be a showstopper for such an essential feature that I believe in game money transfer is for this game.

If anyone has any other suggestions and ideas or any other thoughts please feel free to share them here.

Can I just ask for no flaming and civilised discussion please? I really don't want for this thread to turn into another "This profession is OP and that profession of way too nerfed!" or "You're an idiot and know nothing Jon Sn...". Oh wait... Wrong forums!

Please kindly stay on topic and remain civilised

::EDIT::

I really like the solution proposed by Cmdr Ozmodion (he actually was one of the traders from our yesterday's run):

Another option would be to be able to adjust the percentage of dividends yourself and that dividend comes direct from your profit margin. This way you can hire escorts and then barter for the percentage before hiring.

The ingame money transfer would be the easiest, but as you already stated you will then be inundated by the usual gold farmers from other MMO's selling credits for cash.

::EDIT::

Couple more ideas:

I am all for transferring credits between players, and to avoid pirates asking for credits, you could make it so that you would have to be docked to the same station or outpost as the other part to be able to transfer credits between two players.

I concur, although I had a slightly different suggestion. On sale, you get to choose which wingmates to pass dividends to and how much of your profit to transfer. You cannot transfer more than you have earned as profit. I wholeheartedly agree this should come from your own profits.

A set of pre filled-in reward contracts to chose from and subscribe between trader and escort in order not to allow free money transfer between grinders.

 

[Trinity Star]

The in game money transfer please.

 

[Ozmodion]

Another option would be to be able to adjust the percentage of dividends yourself and that dividend comes direct from your profit margin. This way you can hire escorts and then barter for the percentage before hiring.

The ingame money transfer would be the easiest, but as you already stated you will then be inundated by the usual gold farmers from other MMO's selling credits for cash.

 

[rootsrat]

Another option would be to be able to adjust the percentage of dividends yourself and that dividend comes direct from your profit margin. This way you can hire escorts and then barter for the percentage before hiring.

The ingame money transfer would be the easiest, but as you already stated you will then be inundated by the usual gold farmers from other MMO's selling credits for cash.

That's an excellent solution, I'll add it to the OP.

 

[Noisy Cosmos]

Hope we all see this become real. It can changes the gameplay too, allowing traditional lone wolf merchants playings at wings. I want to see it!

 

[bend_r]

Another option would be to be able to adjust the percentage of dividends yourself and that dividend comes direct from your profit margin. This way you can hire escorts and then barter for the percentage before hiring.

AWESOME Idea.

 

[Luponator]

Or the easy'n'fair method:
Assuming that all parties in a wing work towards the same goal and take a similar risk (the traders risking their ship&cargo, the fighter escort 'just' risking their ship, I appreciate that) why not have a wing-based trade mechanic?
1) Create wing
2) Get to destination
3) Sell. All profit of all wing members is split evenly amongst the wing
4) Wing gets dissolved- done. Wing continues- go to 2)

I realise this is open for abuse (dissolving the wing before selling) and it makes trading a lot less profitable for the traders and a lot more for the escorts, but it's probably easy to implement, gives a REAL incentive for hiring wings and encourages friendly group building.
The reason I think splitting evenly is the most simple solution is because then you're not getting into an argument about what constitutes an escort vs what's a freighter (is a Python an escort? Etc Etc)

This falls short of the awesome adjustment of payments idea of Ozmodion but might be quicker to implement....

 

[Nagita]

All this solutions I think, even if there is cons like multypling profits on full trade wings or bringing in gold farmers, I think that can add something deeper to the team play into this game. Because to be honest with you, the dividends aren't attractive enough for an escort ship to take into his / her time to take care of traders (I actually was the escort ship who had an eye on OP and Ozmodion during the rare goods trading and to be honest, I was here for the interaction at first, not the dividends). And for a multiplayer game, I think it will bring a lot more pros than cons to add features that will push players to play with some unknown guys and... simply playing with others!

 

[rootsrat]

Or the easy'n'fair method:
Assuming that all parties in a wing work towards the same goal and take a similar risk (the traders risking their ship&cargo, the fighter escort 'just' risking their ship, I appreciate that) why not have a wing-based trade mechanic?
1) Create wing
2) Get to destination
3) Sell. All profit of all wing members is split evenly amongst the wing
4) Wing gets dissolved- done. Wing continues- go to 2)

I realise this is open for abuse (dissolving the wing before selling) and it makes trading a lot less profitable for the traders and a lot more for the escorts, but it's probably easy to implement, gives a REAL incentive for hiring wings and encourages friendly group building.
The reason I think splitting evenly is the most simple solution is because then you're not getting into an argument about what constitutes an escort vs what's a freighter (is a Python an escort? Etc Etc)

This falls short of the awesome adjustment of payments idea of Ozmodion but might be quicker to implement....

Another logical, simple and good solution. It doesn't leave as much flexibility as Ozmo's one, but it'd probably be easier one to implement.

All this solutions I think, even if there is cons like multypling profits on full trade wings or bringing in gold farmers, I think that can add something deeper to the team play into this game. Because to be honest with you, the dividends aren't attractive enough for an escort ship to take into his / her time to take care of traders (I actually was the escort ship who had an eye on OP and Ozmodion during the rare goods trading and to be honest, I was here for the interaction at first, not the dividends). And for a multiplayer game, I think it will bring a lot more pros than cons to add features that will push players to play with some unknown guys and... simply playing with others!

Hello Nagita, good to see you here

I definitely agree with all you've said here! It's a win-win for everyone.

 

[Elgered]

I like the idea, but it should NOT BE LIMITED to trading, instead there should be the option to share the entire wing-income (without reducing the bonus granted for teamwork - this is very important).

The rules could be very easy:
There is a slider where the percentage the members get, is regulated (individually for each member, no one more than 66%)
There is a checkbox that states if Fuel/Ammo costs are paid from the share or individually.
The share includes all earnings of all wing members as long as they are in the same wing.
The share consists of all earnings plus the "wing" dividend (+Bounties, +bonds, +commodity sales, +mission rewards, +PP rewards, eventually, -Fuel and/or Ammo that COULD be set to share).
Whenever a member joins or leaves the wing, the share is divided and converted to a voucher in the transaction tab.
The share can be divided anytime manually.
The share vouchers can be redeemed on any station.
When the share is zero, percentages can be adapted (e.g when a well paid escort left or the wing is reformed for another purpose).
A member cannot be kicked without payment. If he is kicked for good reason, well - bad luck if he had a high percentage (new class: rascal/thief^^).

Serverside: The share is constantly logged on all clients in wing and the server to prevent cheating

sounds like a great addition to passenger transport for 1.3.5

 

[rootsrat]

Another great solution here, thanks

sounds like a great addition to passenger transport for 1.3.5

I like your way of thinking

 

[Flavourless]

Trying to understand the OP. I read it as:

State an in game experience that he sees as a problem.
Suggest 2 possible solutions.
Include the very reasons why neither of the 2 solutions are viable?

 

[Anuranium]

The in game money transfer please.

No thank you.
Apart from the obvious exploiting and credit farming this can lead to:
Imagine going from one place to another without cargo (explorers, traders going to a different route etc), and then become interdicted by a pirate. Pirate scans, finds no cargo... but since you are flying a T9 he figures that you have quite the purse, and so he asks for the "modest" sum of 2 million credits to let you go (his/hers logic is that it is cheaper than your rebuy).
Again, no thank you.

Another option would be to be able to adjust the percentage of dividends yourself and that dividend comes direct from your profit margin. This way you can hire escorts and then barter for the percentage before hiring.

This!
Excellent suggestion! Player interaction, working against a common goal and involves a bit of haggling. Perfect!
Could also be implemented towards services such as escorting explorers home (share profits of exploration data) and my favourite: Saving a poor sod's buttocks from dying of fuel shortage.

 

[Arithon]

IMO the trade dividends already favour trade too heavily.

That's not to say they could not be improved, but right now Wing trading gets each wing member +5% of the the other's trade profit. Whereas in a combat Wing, all recipients have to be active in every kill (not just nearby) and the bounty is split not appended, so a pilot stands to LOSE -75% of the bounty by playing in a Wing of four. Imagine if trade dividends reduced your profit to a quarter whenever you were in a Wing.
Not much of an incentive for co-operative play.

While polishing trade dividends, could Frontier perhaps review Wing combat bounty and devise a method that is beneficial rather than detrimental. For example give the bounty to every pilot active in combat and a 5% dividend to the other Wing members.

The ability to negotiate rates is an interesting idea.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Another option would be to be able to adjust the percentage of dividends yourself and that dividend comes direct from your profit margin. This way you can hire escorts and then barter for the percentage before hiring.

The ingame money transfer would be the easiest, but as you already stated you will then be inundated by the usual gold farmers from other MMO's selling credits for cash.

I like this idea a lot....

 

[rootsrat]

Trying to understand the OP. I read it as:

State an in game experience that he sees as a problem.
Suggest 2 possible solutions.
Include the very reasons why neither of the 2 solutions are viable?

They are not the reasons, they are obvious downsides. I was trying to be constructive with my post, as opposed to yours

 

[Elgered]

Trying to understand the OP. I read it as:

State an in game experience that he sees as a problem.
Suggest 2 possible solutions.
Include the very reasons why neither of the 2 solutions are viable?

I read it as:
State an in game experience that seems to be suboptimal.
Suggests two possible, rather easy solutions.
Asks for a discussion about pros and cons in a civilized way.

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And it really made me think. Think of what the game is missing. Think of teamplay. Think of the possibilities and options opened for teamplay, about the possible problems, that may come up with it, and last but not least think about other games, that did similar things.

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< a bit OT>
One of my favorite games back in end of the 90s was "Asherons Call" a (very basic from todays point of view, even it still is online and still has a subscription model^^) MMORPG.
There experience points were shared in the group with increasing boni, if I recall it right +10% for every additional player (so for a full group of 5 there were 40% bonus). It also had a "cool" allegiance / dynasty system, where people could pledge allegiance to another character. You could be sworn to one (I call it) landlord and numerous others to you as your vassals. A 10% (when I'm right) XP-bonus was given to your landlord. That way big dynasties developed, with one character on top, that didn't have to play at all to gain XP and thousands of pledged vassals. It worked! It still works! Oh – and the game had another super cool feature: It has local/group AND allegiance chat^^
< /a bit OT>

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I don’t think we have to fear people with more money. The thing I fear is envy. People who play alone and have a 30% higher effort than a group of four may become jealous and bury this great idea before we finished thinking

 

[rootsrat]

I don’t think we have to fear people with more money. The thing I fear is envy. People who play alone and have a 30% higher effort than a group of four may become jealous and bury this great idea before we finished thinking

Well, Elite is an online game with multiplayer as a feature. Combined effort will almost always be more effective than an individual attempt, assuming same effort is put in per individual on both sides), there's nothing to complain about really. (But yes, I can see how this could happen here).

 

[Ozmodion]

The other night i was in a wing with somebody else bounty hunting in Res sites. we teamed up on the big pythons/condas etc and only got a share of the bounty. thats not a problem as if a target has a bounty and 2 people take it down then it should be shared, but does this way not encourage you to not go into a wing and bounty hunt as you will only get half of what you could of got if you was in there on your own?

the next night i did go in on my own and pulled a lot of credits from bounties, which made me think of this idea in the first place.

as much as other person interaction goes in this game, i do feel that the monetary side of things has not been given to us. we have to either accept the way it is at the moment, do what we normally do and buy lots of ore to give away to sell, or we air it here on the forums for us to hopefully get recognised by the devs so they can give us control by having sliders, checkboxes or options to decide on what we want and not the game.

i would feel more comfortable saying to somebody that if you escort me then i will give you a percentage of the profits rather than buying lots of stuff to dump into space for them to scoop and sell themselves.

 

[Elgered]

So it seems to be common sense, that an improvement like this, is a good idea. (well the best Idea since ... ever?^^)

Thanks rootsrat for bringing it up!

Also it seems to be clear, that it shouldn't be limited to trading or bounty hunting, but be applied to the entire "wings feature".

This rises the question: why wasn't it implemented in wings. Did nobody bring up the idea, when Wings was in development or was it there but simply never implemented? Or was it dropped for good reason?

Since patch 1.3 I have problems connecting to wings. Not bothering with my network setup (where I am sure the problem comes from), I decided to play solo again, because "Wings" wasn't that much extra fun anymore.
(it was fun when it worked, but frustrating, when having to wait for others after disconnect or instancing problems, etc. and on my traderoutes I'm faster alone). My real life friends already quit E : D completely.

A feature like this could be a real good motivation for my friends and me to play together again.