How to stop PP Fifth Columnists?

[_Flin_]

What we need are ways to directly attack powers.

Then noone would care about the Fifth Columns.

As it is, there is currently no other good way to attack another power.
- Undermining: Everyone just assumes every system will be undermined every turn
- Expansion countering: Possible, but this doesn't change anything. It doesn't attack or reduce the power in question, only prevents further growth.
- Background Simulation attacks: There aren't enough minor factions of the weak government types. These are usually some esoteric ones that are few and far between.

So how do you attack a power? You either 5th column them or you don't.

 

[Cairo]

A lot of good ideas in here, a smart combination of which could improve things if not solve the problem entirely. I'm not fond of bans and limiting PP to Open, though.

Another suggestion to add into the mix:

split the single merit point reward for preparation into two points and allow relocation of prep material from negative CC systems to positive (but not the other way around). Delivering material to a positive CC system gives you two merit points per unit but otherwise works the same as now. Delivering material to a negative CC system gives you one point, and any member of the Power can pick up and relocate that material from the negative CC system in bulk (no timers, only limit is your cargo space) to a positive CC system. Doing so gives the latter player the remaining merit point as a reward and removes the material's prepping power from the bad system and into the good one.

This would allow correcting honest bad plays and combatting 5th column activity with a small reward for doing so.

 

[Aegis I]

I am of the opinion we must address the fundamental problem.

How does the 5th columning works?
It works on the basis that you can defect easily to another power to mess up the power from within.

How do you then address this?
Simple, increase the penalty for defection. For example:
- Total credit loss of 50%
- Significant loss of reputation ranking with a major power (e.g. Defecting from Fed to Empire will result in a drop in Fed rank, such as Post Commander to Ensign, and resulting in all corresponding permits being taken away).
Or even better, disable defection totally. This means no power hopping, once you have pledge allegiance to a power, you are committed for life until the power dies, i.e. goes into turmoil and dies off naturally

 

[Stodgy]

What we need are ways to directly attack powers.

Then noone would care about the Fifth Columns.

As it is, there is currently no other good way to attack another power.
- Undermining: Everyone just assumes every system will be undermined every turn
- Expansion countering: Possible, but this doesn't change anything. It doesn't attack or reduce the power in question, only prevents further growth.
- Background Simulation attacks: There aren't enough minor factions of the weak government types. These are usually some esoteric ones that are few and far between.

So how do you attack a power? You either 5th column them or you don't.

You forgot overlapping expansion. Expand to a system on another Factions border to turn their exploited systems to contested systems and permanently lower their CC.

 

[Brucolac]

As it stands, there really isn't anything you can do. In this regard, PP is utterly broken.

My first suggestion would be that preparing a system with a negative CC value should not give merits. But that alone probably is not enough.

Why even allow preparing a system that would give negative CC? The game already "knows" that the system is bad, so it should just be a simple flag in the UI to disable the option to prepare such systems.

I have nothing against emergent gameplay in principle, but in this case it seems to be symptomatic of it being much easier to fortify and prepare systems than to undermine them, so people are looking for a more effective means of disrupting a power. In short, it's a design issue.

 

[Vincent Starson]

Something should be done about it, I don't have any good ideas though. Frontier will probably do something about it, I can't imagine they like what they're seeing.

 

[Herik]

Theres pretty much a reddit for each faction trying to sabotage them with groups that play solo/private and open. Stopping them as the game stands currently is impossible because judging by the comments many do it just to annoy the other players playing properly. Its not a plot for example by Hudson supporters against a rival faction, its simply to cause problems for X faction with no ulterior motive.
Yes it needs fixing with a proper new gameplay mechanic or behind the scenes game calculation to allow the best prepared prospects to be selected instead of the negative CC ones that the saboteurs prepared. Make their efforts worthless in the long run and they will no longer do it.

Sounds like work for the Michael B.; the 'black box' god of the galaxy.

Maybe he'll have more than one method to solve it...

 

[Herik]

I am of the opinion we must address the fundamental problem.

How does the 5th columning works?
It works on the basis that you can defect easily to another power to mess up the power from within.

How do you then address this?
Simple, increase the penalty for defection. For example:
- Total credit loss of 50%
- Significant loss of reputation ranking with a major power (e.g. Defecting from Fed to Empire will result in a drop in Fed rank, such as Post Commander to Ensign, and resulting in all corresponding permits being taken away).
Or even better, disable defection totally. This means no power hopping, once you have pledge allegiance to a power, you are committed for life until the power dies, i.e. goes into turmoil and dies off naturally

Of course the problem with these options is (even less) players will consider allying themselves with a power, if they cant have the option to change their mind.

 

[Dogeh]

Without waking the Solo vs Open monster again, one solution would be to take PP out of private and solo play, or at least massively reduce the effects.

The issue lies, as someone else pointed out, with the fact that players can't do anything about fifth columnists. And it is exacerbated by solo/private modes.
Making it all Open would go some way to transparency.

 

[Herik]

A lot of good ideas in here, a smart combination of which could improve things if not solve the problem entirely. I'm not fond of bans and limiting PP to Open, though.

Another suggestion to add into the mix:

split the single merit point reward for preparation into two points and allow relocation of prep material from negative CC systems to positive (but not the other way around). Delivering material to a positive CC system gives you two merit points per unit but otherwise works the same as now. Delivering material to a negative CC system gives you one point, and any member of the Power can pick up and relocate that material from the negative CC system in bulk (no timers, only limit is your cargo space) to a positive CC system. Doing so gives the latter player the remaining merit point as a reward and removes the material's prepping power from the bad system and into the good one.

This would allow correcting honest bad plays and combatting 5th column activity with a small reward for doing so.

+1 Somewhat complex but probably workable; Goons need not reply, Michael B. consider...

 

[Fen Harel]

Is the problem with the negative-CC prepped systems Conspiracy or Stupidity? It's not immediately obvious. I'm sure there are 5th column groups out there, and I am sure they would take credit for anything going wrong. On the other hand, there are no doubt lots of players who are just looking for easy merits, or just selecting the first thing on the prep list without really understanding its a poor choice.

So, I'm not sure it is clear what the problem is.

Also, I'm personally ambivalent about FDev changing the system - at least not yet. There are strategic reasons to, for example, select a system which is not contiguous with the power's current region - ALD groups are doing this right now with Pancienses. There might even be strategic reasons for selecting a system with a slight CC deficient, to block another advance or something. Maybe. After giving us the freedom to prepare and expand as we wish, I would hope that FDev wouldn't be forced to take that player agency away.

IMO, the answer is for the loyal players of each power to keep themselves organized and informed. This system is not going to be perfect, a bad system might slip through, but in general, for the overall level of expansion the loyal members of a power should be able to overwhelm the evil/bad/not-that-bright players. If a power can't organize itself above that level... well, again IMO... maybe the power should fall.

- - - Updated - - -

Something should be done about it, I don't have any good ideas though. Frontier will probably do something about it, I can't imagine they like what they're seeing.

Something can be done about it, right now! Loyal players of a power need to keep organized and informed to damp down the effects of the evil and dumb.

Reddit has an excellent set of subreddits for each power, ALDs is here, and has links to the others.

 

[Fen Harel]

You should punished for doing things that hurt the Power you have pledged to.FD should rethink this system IMHO.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but I don't see a practical way to implement that. How can tell a player is being a traitor as opposed to being simply selfish, or, perhaps, not all that bright? Bad actions can be carried out by dumb actors as well as bad actors.

I still think it is too soon to make drastic changes in the system. Lets see how it runs its for a few cycles. It's likely going to impossible to keep every bad system from being prepped, but hopefully these will be the distinct minority.

 

[Herik]

Its almost like real life where political powers have infighting and espionage. Hmm, sounds like we have a natural occuring human phenomenon. Dont see how you can stop it. I agree its annoying as all hell but your basically talking about getting rid of corruption. And on any scale thats pretty difficult.

Well yes: 'a natural occuring phenomenon', but beyond simulation, in this (game); if most players become stifled and can-not use Powerplay the way they see as intended, the background simulation fails as a feature of the game galaxy.

This is simply an 'exploit', and while Michael B. is temporarily accepting it, eventually he'll have to sally forth...

 

[Soda Popinski]

Why even allow preparing a system that would give negative CC? The game already "knows" that the system is bad, so it should just be a simple flag in the UI to disable the option to prepare such systems.

IRL, a nation may want to hold an economically unsound system for strategic value. Maybe you want to make sure it doesn't get exploited by an opposing power.

That makes it difficult to know when expansion into a neg CC system is 5th Columning or sound strategy.

Eliminating merits for players expanding into such systems would stop the ignorant players from accidentally supporting a detrimental move. It won't stop a dedicated 5th Columner that doesn't care about merits for that faction.

 

[CMDR Derrida]

This is one of the reasons I won't do PP.

I'm not against it per se but I can't see how PP can progress with the current mechanics.

Basically, the more players you have the more you will win.

The more spare players you have to go underground and perform this tasks the more you can win.

It's just a numbers game dressed up.

It's interesting the PP but it's a pve grind, so more grinders=more win.

Very true, it's just antagonised the problematic already existent in community goals...going underground

 

[fergal]

Is the problem with the negative-CC prepped systems Conspiracy or Stupidity? It's not immediately obvious. I'm sure there are 5th column groups out there, and I am sure they would take credit for anything going wrong. On the other hand, there are no doubt lots of players who are just looking for easy merits, or just selecting the first thing on the prep list without really understanding its a poor choice.

So, I'm not sure it is clear what the problem is.

Its true that some of this is just merit grinding and players thinking they are helping.
What happened to Archon Delaine was blatantly purposeful.

There is no merit grinding advantage, or any other "useful" reason for one of his preparation targets, other than sabotage. Thats fine, except there is nothing you can do about it, and it wasn't hidden, its in your face.

 

[Roybe]

Isn't this game wonderful...different modes for people to play the way they want to...with people, without people, but always..always...able to affect the galaxy they play in!

Just...some fair warning. You have barely started seeing how nasty this game will get. Wait for people to start to really understand the power that each player holds within their hands.....then the bloodbaths will begin in earnest!

So to the OP...I do not want anything to be done to prevent players from playing how they want to in this game! Embrace the design...enjoy the challenge...organize harder...play smarter!

 

[snotface]

If you have solid evidence(not sure what that would be) that certain people are purposely engaging in sabotage...

Shoot them in the face.

/thread

lol is that before or after you take the knife out your back?

People play their silly games just to spoil it for everybody else. Its a game not real life

 

[HectorSmarties]

I keep hearing about 5th columnists here and there, but wouldn't it be much more likely that these "sabotage" attempts are actually players just grinding trade routes for money and merits?
The only place where you might see some real 5th columnists is on powerplay conflict zones, as no sane grinder would ever go there.