Yes.. ENTITLED!..
Consider your bottom kicked.
Warning: Elite Dangerous Online Store Purchases
- Thread starter Droolguy
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Consider your bottom kicked.
Back when I first signed on and considered Elite and SC, one of the backer benefits with SC was you could get was free ship insurance for life. I missed it by a couple of days. I asked if it could still be gotten and was told No.
There was no extension to their kickstarter time frame (like there was here) and the continued to sell things that were not part of their kickstarter afterwards.
I missed out there and decided to not back them. I pledged an amount here, again after their kickstarter ended but months before the closure of the backer store. I even upgraded my account and purchased another for my son.
Funny thing is, I'm in the US and Elite wasn't really a super popular game like it is in the UK. But I played it when I was younger. That is what drove me to Eve, and the politics is what drove me away form there.
I seen similar mindsets over on SC and decided to that Elite is where I would go and park. I would have done the same regardless if I had the funds to back it or not. It had nothing to do really with the rewards. I am here for the game, not to complain about the Have's and the Have Not's.
There was no extension to their kickstarter time frame (like there was here) and the continued to sell things that were not part of their kickstarter afterwards.
I missed out there and decided to not back them. I pledged an amount here, again after their kickstarter ended but months before the closure of the backer store. I even upgraded my account and purchased another for my son.
Funny thing is, I'm in the US and Elite wasn't really a super popular game like it is in the UK. But I played it when I was younger. That is what drove me to Eve, and the politics is what drove me away form there.
I seen similar mindsets over on SC and decided to that Elite is where I would go and park. I would have done the same regardless if I had the funds to back it or not. It had nothing to do really with the rewards. I am here for the game, not to complain about the Have's and the Have Not's.
That whole LifeTime Insurance (LTI) thing caused a right stink over on SC - i wasnt bothered myself as the dev's there say that insurance is going to be a very minimal cost in any case. Its just going to have to be remembered to be renewed is all
Nice to see another US backer here though. Funny how the games have sorta diverged somewhat.
Nice to see another US backer here though. Funny how the games have sorta diverged somewhat.
For buying Alpha in preorder you get expansions, alpha, beta and copy of the game. You get quite something if you ask me. Just not what you hoped as I understand. However FD warned us a lot about this two weeks prior change. Sorry to hear that you're disappointed because you missed it, but that's all I can say. I could afford to pledge up to digital downloads pack early before seeing any footage, and I did despite not having so much money to throw around. With that I got rewarded more than anyone else seeing actual alpha and pledging afterwards.
Just bite a bullet, and be happy with what you got. We miss things each day. That's how harsh mistress life is.
Just bite a bullet, and be happy with what you got. We miss things each day. That's how harsh mistress life is.
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It has always been a lot of money to get into the alpha. When I put my credits into kickstarter over a year ago it was just enough to give me access to second beta. There was a lot of articles in the gaming media at the time.
Also - I was expecting that ONLY early backers would get into the alpha. Somehow that would give the feedback of the purer fans IMHO.
Also - I was expecting that ONLY early backers would get into the alpha. Somehow that would give the feedback of the purer fans IMHO.
No such thing. A fan is a fan, a backer is a backer. You could argue that FD didn't do a good enough job promoting the Kickstarter campaign but in a lot of cases I expect people didn't back it because they may not have even known of its existence.
I can't even remember where I first heard about it. It wasn't on KS because I think this was the first project I backed. It might have been on another forum or perhaps on The Register.
All sales and promotions end at some point. If you miss it by a day then you miss out. This has happened I am sure to all of us at some point.
Luckily for you, you were able to get into alpha testing as it was still an option. That is your perk for pledging more then others. Sure you miss out on some other things, but not all, as you do get free life time expansions. True you could get them for less, but without alpha access. So you gain some things over others, and others have a few more things then you. That is the way it is for all games.
Basically in the end your helping to make the game a possible, get to play part of it today, tomorrow and as long as you like. With each new alpha module released that investment just multiplies over beta people still waiting. As soon as beta releases and catches up with all the alpha modules then alpha access lost it special status, until they are readying the next expansion, in which case I hope they allow us alpha testers to see it first and test it for them. If so alpha access is a gift that will keep on giving. This is my hope and nothing official was ever mentioned or suggested to this effect (just to be clear).
In any event always look at what you have and not what someone else may have gotten. If you look at the new online store and read the alpha package it reads:
It is very clear what you get, I am sorry if the OP doesn't like the package as it is now, but to some just playing the alpha was worth the cost of admission and if Michaels hint that the next phase of alpha is adding even more content then initially planned only says a lot about the state the game is in and how confident they are in it. I can't wait to see what is next and the OP can join in with us as soon as it is ready. A lesser pledge and he will be on the outside looking in waiting on beta or gamma or buying it off the shelf. For me the sooner the better.
Calebe
Luckily for you, you were able to get into alpha testing as it was still an option. That is your perk for pledging more then others. Sure you miss out on some other things, but not all, as you do get free life time expansions. True you could get them for less, but without alpha access. So you gain some things over others, and others have a few more things then you. That is the way it is for all games.
Basically in the end your helping to make the game a possible, get to play part of it today, tomorrow and as long as you like. With each new alpha module released that investment just multiplies over beta people still waiting. As soon as beta releases and catches up with all the alpha modules then alpha access lost it special status, until they are readying the next expansion, in which case I hope they allow us alpha testers to see it first and test it for them. If so alpha access is a gift that will keep on giving. This is my hope and nothing official was ever mentioned or suggested to this effect (just to be clear).
In any event always look at what you have and not what someone else may have gotten. If you look at the new online store and read the alpha package it reads:
It is very clear what you get, I am sorry if the OP doesn't like the package as it is now, but to some just playing the alpha was worth the cost of admission and if Michaels hint that the next phase of alpha is adding even more content then initially planned only says a lot about the state the game is in and how confident they are in it. I can't wait to see what is next and the OP can join in with us as soon as it is ready. A lesser pledge and he will be on the outside looking in waiting on beta or gamma or buying it off the shelf. For me the sooner the better.
Calebe
Alright,
So I literally read the whole thread so far, all sixty six responses.
I will respond to what seems to be the most common standpoints.
1. You should be happy with what you get! Be it alpha access, beta access, or all of the future expansions.
Response: Alpha and Beta access are not "valuable" in any way, you are actually doing something for Frontier that the company originally had to pay people to do and still does in the form of Q&A personnel.
With wipes before releases it does not give you any kind of leg-up on the next person and with no NDA it doesn't give you any bonus in knowledge since every aspect of the game will be reported on.
The majority of people who have Alpha and Beta access will not actually use it on a regular basis because they have no desire to play a game in its buggy and incomplete form.
So, with that now established you have the relative worth of the "future expansions".
Lets look at that for a moment, for Alpha backing I paid approximately $350.
Now if we assume that the release game is going to be $59.99 which is the market normal for a title we have $290.01 left over to apply to said future expansions.
The going rate for expansions is $29.99-39.99 every one year if you use the current games that have released the most prolific amount of expansions.
So if we run the numbers that comes out to a minimum return on investment of between 7.2 and 9.6 years after the game releases.
Most of you don't even keep the same car for that long, let alone a video game.
If I took that same $350 and invested it at a 2.5% gain per year which is extremely low over that same time period it would be worth $416 to $437.
So Frontier, who I guarantee invests sales in it's own company will make at least $66 to $87 off of my original purchase by the time those expansions are all released.
Moving on.
2. Your not risking as much as us who backed on Kickstarter!
Wrong again.
Kickstarter does not transfer funds until a company meets it's "we can produce this..." mark, so if the game had failed to reach that amount you would have all gotten your money back.
Also, if a company fails to produce a product once a Kickstarter campaign has ended (with successful funding) then they are banned from ever using the system again and the PR backlash basically ends companies.
So the game will be released, of that there is no doubt, because Frontier will not allow itself as a company to be bankrupted by this project.
The only realistic risk any of us takes is in the release form of the game, basically whether it will be the game we hope it is or not.
We all share equal risk vs. our investment in the game at this point since the game hasn't released yet which is the defining point of "If it was worth it."
Moving on again.
From my personal opinion.
What has real worth to me is recognition for my significant investment in this franchise, I really don't care about the Alpha or Beta even though I may play a bit of both to help Frontier with the game.
It's a service I am willing to provide them for free because I really enjoy the idea of what the game could become.
What they need to do in return is at least provide some form of public recognition for the investment of both time and money a backer has in the game, of which there is currently none on the online shop.
Normally this is in the form of in-game cosmetics or titles, which actually carry much more value with them than almost anything else for many players.
If you don't believe me then take away my Alpha, Beta, and expansions and give me the option to apply a shiny reflective chrome paintjob to any of my ships on release and watch the forums explode with angry early backers exclaiming that it isn't fair.
Thank you all for your time and thank you especially to those of you who defended me while I slept.
P.S. I will not be seeking a refund because like I said in my OP the purchase was my fault even with the slightly misleading Kickstarter page. I strongly support the whole "You made your bed now sleep in it." mentality. The OP was meant to hopefully prevent others from making the same mistake.
So I literally read the whole thread so far, all sixty six responses.
I will respond to what seems to be the most common standpoints.
1. You should be happy with what you get! Be it alpha access, beta access, or all of the future expansions.
Response: Alpha and Beta access are not "valuable" in any way, you are actually doing something for Frontier that the company originally had to pay people to do and still does in the form of Q&A personnel.
With wipes before releases it does not give you any kind of leg-up on the next person and with no NDA it doesn't give you any bonus in knowledge since every aspect of the game will be reported on.
The majority of people who have Alpha and Beta access will not actually use it on a regular basis because they have no desire to play a game in its buggy and incomplete form.
So, with that now established you have the relative worth of the "future expansions".
Lets look at that for a moment, for Alpha backing I paid approximately $350.
Now if we assume that the release game is going to be $59.99 which is the market normal for a title we have $290.01 left over to apply to said future expansions.
The going rate for expansions is $29.99-39.99 every one year if you use the current games that have released the most prolific amount of expansions.
So if we run the numbers that comes out to a minimum return on investment of between 7.2 and 9.6 years after the game releases.
Most of you don't even keep the same car for that long, let alone a video game.
If I took that same $350 and invested it at a 2.5% gain per year which is extremely low over that same time period it would be worth $416 to $437.
So Frontier, who I guarantee invests sales in it's own company will make at least $66 to $87 off of my original purchase by the time those expansions are all released.
Moving on.
2. Your not risking as much as us who backed on Kickstarter!
Wrong again.
Kickstarter does not transfer funds until a company meets it's "we can produce this..." mark, so if the game had failed to reach that amount you would have all gotten your money back.
Also, if a company fails to produce a product once a Kickstarter campaign has ended (with successful funding) then they are banned from ever using the system again and the PR backlash basically ends companies.
So the game will be released, of that there is no doubt, because Frontier will not allow itself as a company to be bankrupted by this project.
The only realistic risk any of us takes is in the release form of the game, basically whether it will be the game we hope it is or not.
We all share equal risk vs. our investment in the game at this point since the game hasn't released yet which is the defining point of "If it was worth it."
Moving on again.
From my personal opinion.
What has real worth to me is recognition for my significant investment in this franchise, I really don't care about the Alpha or Beta even though I may play a bit of both to help Frontier with the game.
It's a service I am willing to provide them for free because I really enjoy the idea of what the game could become.
What they need to do in return is at least provide some form of public recognition for the investment of both time and money a backer has in the game, of which there is currently none on the online shop.
Normally this is in the form of in-game cosmetics or titles, which actually carry much more value with them than almost anything else for many players.
If you don't believe me then take away my Alpha, Beta, and expansions and give me the option to apply a shiny reflective chrome paintjob to any of my ships on release and watch the forums explode with angry early backers exclaiming that it isn't fair.
Thank you all for your time and thank you especially to those of you who defended me while I slept.
P.S. I will not be seeking a refund because like I said in my OP the purchase was my fault even with the slightly misleading Kickstarter page. I strongly support the whole "You made your bed now sleep in it." mentality. The OP was meant to hopefully prevent others from making the same mistake.
So you feel entitled to benefit in the same as for someone who backed on the KS??, then i will argue that the current state of ED has nothing to do with kickstarter and therefore FD are not entitled to give you anything more than what is listed in the store.
Why do you think they had the rewards on the KS? If they didn't noone would back the project without knowing they at least got something for their support. You then want FD to ignore that fact and just give rewards to everyone who buy into alpha,beta etc.?
Sorry you missed the KS but thats life...
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Sorry mate but this doesn't hold up, oh you're right, the funds aren't transferred until the goal is met but that in NO WAY guarantees that people will get what they paid for. You're correct that the company will be banned from using KS again (I think and I hope) but the company may just take the million and run. It would be bad publicity but it's still a risk.
Oh and I didn't back the KS, I joined in February so I'm not in the KS crowd. I appreciate FD keeping the option open for most of a year and I /am/ sorry that you didn't make it in time to get the options.
Well, theres certainly some logic in that post in fairness to the OP. I also get the point of his post is to "warn" folk of the difference, maybe it could titled a bit less harshly
Just a few of things from me and again they are personal opinions that wont apply to everyone:
- I played Eve Online for nearly 10 years - I hope this will be better and if so I'll play it alot longer
- As for FD making any extra money by investing our money then im good with that too - seems to be good business sense to me to invest some money away and make some interest.
- I wouldnt want a leg up over anyone on the full release of the game by having played in Alpha or Beta myself, in fact im hoping theres a full server wipe personally.
- I really think that aside from a few physical goodies that FD gave for being in the KS that the ingame stuff is probably very easy to obtain from just playing normally. Again I kinda want to earn it myself when i get there.
Again just a few personal observations there and opinions but i can totally see what your saying as it applies to yourself.
Just a few of things from me and again they are personal opinions that wont apply to everyone:
- I played Eve Online for nearly 10 years - I hope this will be better and if so I'll play it alot longer
- As for FD making any extra money by investing our money then im good with that too - seems to be good business sense to me to invest some money away and make some interest.
- I wouldnt want a leg up over anyone on the full release of the game by having played in Alpha or Beta myself, in fact im hoping theres a full server wipe personally.
- I really think that aside from a few physical goodies that FD gave for being in the KS that the ingame stuff is probably very easy to obtain from just playing normally. Again I kinda want to earn it myself when i get there.
Again just a few personal observations there and opinions but i can totally see what your saying as it applies to yourself.
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I might be alone in this, but I did get confused during the Kickstarter. Initially I wanted to put down quite a substantial backing and take the risk, possibly get the boxed edition and relive my childhood memories of opening the big black box and putting the ship identification chart on my wall Towards the end of the KS campaign Frontier appeared to add pledge rewards that indicated future expansions and the £80 level reward gave you access to these expansions. This was literally just above the level I had initially pledged. It was a little annoying that the expansion pass was added later and in my opinion the fact there there would be paid for expansions was not detailed in the original kickstarter information it was added later (or perhaps was not particularly clear for dunderheads like me)
I was a little confused and it looked like laying down quite a substantial amount of money from the outset would not guarantee you would be able to play the full game. I therefore decided to cut my losses/risk as a backer and reduced my funding level to the £25.
When I saw the quality of the alpha videos (superbly demonstrated on Twitch by KerrashLanding seriously...give that guy his Alpha free he's earned it) my excitement was restored in the project and I pledged a full £100 to get in the Beta 1. As with others I'm happy with the situation now, I made my decisions and I get my pay-off based on the risk I took based on the information available. I do however think the details regarding the expansion were confusing initially.
Towards the end of the KS campaign Frontier appeared to add pledge rewards that indicated future expansions and the £80 level reward gave you access to these expansions. This was literally just above the level I had initially pledged. It was a little annoying that the expansion pass was added later and in my opinion the fact there there would be paid for expansions was not detailed in the original kickstarter information it was added later (or perhaps was not particularly clear for dunderheads like me)I was a little confused and it looked like laying down quite a substantial amount of money from the outset would not guarantee you would be able to play the full game. I therefore decided to cut my losses/risk as a backer and reduced my funding level to the £25.
When I saw the quality of the alpha videos (superbly demonstrated on Twitch by KerrashLanding seriously...give that guy his Alpha free he's earned it) my excitement was restored in the project and I pledged a full £100 to get in the Beta 1. As with others I'm happy with the situation now, I made my decisions and I get my pay-off based on the risk I took based on the information available. I do however think the details regarding the expansion were confusing initially.
I do get the sense of disappointment I felt that myself when I caught on in February that the KS had come and gone. And it would be even worse if I bought something in the store and thought I was getting a whole bunch of things I wasn't getting.
But...
You all do realize that an established company will not just take the money and run, correct?
They would loose far more than they would make.
This is a possibility for unknown companies because they don't have something to loose.
Your logic when it's an established business with a stock price of 151.44 and a market cap of 47.21 million is extremely inaccurate.
They would loose far more than they would make.
This is a possibility for unknown companies because they don't have something to loose.
Your logic when it's an established business with a stock price of 151.44 and a market cap of 47.21 million is extremely inaccurate.
Same here and from his videos and those of Kroy Morlach. I went one further and bought the alpha because of them. Give em a storyline in game
Sorry to divert thread there.
I am somewhat confused and saddened by some of your words. You say
"Response: Alpha and Beta access are not "valuable" in any way, you are actually doing something for Frontier that the company originally had to pay people to do and still does in the form of Q&A personnel."
If they are not "valuable" in any way why purchase at that level you did?
For my self the privilege of being able to play the game in Alpha/Beta access and to make my small contribution to the feedback of the game, not to mention seeing it evolve before my eyes (release by release) would be worth a tremendous amount and the two hundred quid you spent.
"Response: Alpha and Beta access are not "valuable" in any way, you are actually doing something for Frontier that the company originally had to pay people to do and still does in the form of Q&A personnel."
If they are not "valuable" in any way why purchase at that level you did?
For my self the privilege of being able to play the game in Alpha/Beta access and to make my small contribution to the feedback of the game, not to mention seeing it evolve before my eyes (release by release) would be worth a tremendous amount and the two hundred quid you spent.
Yaffle
Volunteer Moderator
A few comments, most of which are unnecessarily pedantic.
Which is a definition of value.
Assuming learning the mechanics and foibles of the game confers no advantage.
Really?
This is a bit circular. The compound calculation you do is actually more of a translation calculation. $437 in 2023 (9 years off) IS THE SAME VALUE as $350 today, if your cost of capital is 2.5%. There is no gain, you are doing a conversion of value over time.
I would actually hope it's more than that. Frontier has gone to Kickstarter to get cash, cash it will use to make more cash to keep its shareholders happy. Shareholders are on the stick for the risk of the company and wish a high return, which will be above the risk free rate. If you could make that much risk free, why invest in Frontier?
Cash is the lifeblood of every business. If you have cash in hand (see Apple Inc as an example) it's costing you your cost of equity all the time (that's expensive, hence the legal cases trying to force Apple to pay massive dividends).
If you borrow from a bank then it's at the cost of loan (after a bit of tax deduction jiggery-pokery).
Kickstarter is interest free, but has costs Frontier would have paid to Kickstarter for "broking" the deal. Should the game prove to be impossible to code (a better example would be something like the pebble watch, had it proved impossible to make) then we all get no refunds. Shout all you like, tough luck.
In my experience no company sets out to allow itself to become insolvent (bankruptcy for corporates is a US thing, it doesn't happen here) from a project, but it still happens. The closer to the finish line a project is, all other things being equal, the more certain it is. By comparison, take a weather forecast. Tomorrow's will be pretty good, next week's okay, a year from now an utter guess. So now we have an alpha we're much, much closer to the finish-line, ergo the risk of non-completion is lower.
Agreed to an extent, it is a risk we all share.
Nope, see my comment on closeness to completion. Another example, your team is winning 35-0 with one minute to go. Would the odds on a win be the same as before the start? Nope.
I respect your opinions, albeit that I disagree with some of them
Which is a definition of value.
Assuming learning the mechanics and foibles of the game confers no advantage.
Really?
This is a bit circular. The compound calculation you do is actually more of a translation calculation. $437 in 2023 (9 years off) IS THE SAME VALUE as $350 today, if your cost of capital is 2.5%. There is no gain, you are doing a conversion of value over time.
I would actually hope it's more than that. Frontier has gone to Kickstarter to get cash, cash it will use to make more cash to keep its shareholders happy. Shareholders are on the stick for the risk of the company and wish a high return, which will be above the risk free rate. If you could make that much risk free, why invest in Frontier?
Cash is the lifeblood of every business. If you have cash in hand (see Apple Inc as an example) it's costing you your cost of equity all the time (that's expensive, hence the legal cases trying to force Apple to pay massive dividends).
If you borrow from a bank then it's at the cost of loan (after a bit of tax deduction jiggery-pokery).
Kickstarter is interest free, but has costs Frontier would have paid to Kickstarter for "broking" the deal. Should the game prove to be impossible to code (a better example would be something like the pebble watch, had it proved impossible to make) then we all get no refunds. Shout all you like, tough luck.
In my experience no company sets out to allow itself to become insolvent (bankruptcy for corporates is a US thing, it doesn't happen here) from a project, but it still happens. The closer to the finish line a project is, all other things being equal, the more certain it is. By comparison, take a weather forecast. Tomorrow's will be pretty good, next week's okay, a year from now an utter guess. So now we have an alpha we're much, much closer to the finish-line, ergo the risk of non-completion is lower.
Agreed to an extent, it is a risk we all share.
Nope, see my comment on closeness to completion. Another example, your team is winning 35-0 with one minute to go. Would the odds on a win be the same as before the start? Nope.
I respect your opinions, albeit that I disagree with some of them
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