Everything that is wrong with Elite: Dangerous, thread #52141298371

I think that the two games can be compared. What is good for the goose is sauce for the gander: SC struggles to make deadlines because it turns out to be really hard to achieve its ambitions. ED likewise struggles to realise its ambitions. But you don't hear people complain about SC: "where's the game you promised?". Everybody seems happy to accept that such an ambitious game will take time to realise. But with ED it's: "I want it all and I want it NOW".
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Does SC keep its backers better informed? Well, it talks a lot more... but I don't see any more progress than with ED.

I already answered your question, but I'll do it again. The reason people are more accepting of SC's delays is because CiG is very forthcoming about the state of development, and communicates CONSTANTLY with its playerbase. FD does not, and there is no excuse for that. We're not asking for miracles here, we're asking for communication.
 
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I already answered your question, but I'll do it again. The reason people are more accepting of SC's delays is because CiG is very forthcoming about the state of development, and communicates CONSTANTLY with its playerbase. FD does not, and there is no excuse for that. We're not asking for miracles here, we're asking for communication.

I agree that ED needs to communicate better (although Sarah does a good job, bless her artificially intelligent socks). But talk is cheap. Promises are free. ED has produced more game on a much smaller budget in a smaller time period. People are defined by their actions, not their words.
 
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That's because you find after doing these things, that there was not point to doing them. There's no end, no closure you just turn the game off. It's a sign of a disappointing end game.

Well the same is true with almost every MMO (assuming ED is an MMO).
They all rely on repetitive mechanisms where you do the same thing over and over again until your fight the final boss to know the end of a usually below-average story. ED is finally no different except the fact that unlike traditional MMOs, the missions are not made to look different, and the story evolves so slowly that it looks almost non-existent.
I agree with the lack of end or closure. But this is a sandbox game: it is supposed to end when you decide it does. For instance some people in the game elected faction and decided to make them prosper, therefore having to fight against other players doing the same with an opposing faction. That can take a lot of time and is the point. But a point you need to make up for yourself. I understand it is not what everyone is looking after and FD should work on that, but I am not so surprised. "Blaze your own trail" also means you are the one in charge of your goals and why you aim at them. Not the game.
 
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Well the same is true with almost every MMO (assuming ED is an MMO).
They all rely on repetitive mechanisms where you do the same thing over and over again until your fight the final boss to know the end of a usually below-average story. ED is finally no different except the fact that unlike traditional MMOs, the missions are not made to look different, and the story evolves so slowly that it looks almost non-existent.
I agree with the lack of end or closure. But this is a sandbox game: it is supposed to end when you decide it does. For instance some people in the game elected faction and decided to make them prosper, therefore having to fight against other players doing the same with an opposing faction. That can take a lot of time and is the point. But a point you need to make up for yourself. I understand it is not what everyone is looking after and FD should work on that, but I am not so surprised. "Blaze your own trail" also means you are the one in charge of your goals and why you aim at them. Not the game.

Let's just say, then, that I'm not sure there's enough content, enough to do, to make a good sandbox game.
 
Well the same is true with almost every MMO (assuming ED is an MMO).
They all rely on repetitive mechanisms where you do the same thing over and over again until your fight the final boss to know the end of a usually below-average story. ED is finally no different except the fact that unlike traditional MMOs, the missions are not made to look different, and the story evolves so slowly that it looks almost non-existent.
I agree with the lack of end or closure. But this is a sandbox game: it is supposed to end when you decide it does. For instance some people in the game elected faction and decided to make them prosper, therefore having to fight against other players doing the same with an opposing faction. That can take a lot of time and is the point. But a point you need to make up for yourself. I understand it is not what everyone is looking after and FD should work on that, but I am not so surprised. "Blaze your own trail" also means you are the one in charge of your goals and why you aim at them. Not the game.

Social interaction is what makes MMO's special and Elite struggles on this level. I find it VERY had to sync up with friends and as such end up playing by myself for the most part.

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Let's just say, then, that I'm not sure there's enough content, enough to do, to make a good sandbox game.
This is a good point.
 
Frontier has been silent with regards to features they promised after the 1.0, such as dynamic planetside missions, planetary landings, ship interiors, walking around stations, boarding ships, and more.
I think they also vastly underestimated the work required to get all this going.
David and his team thought the game could be released and features could be added over time. Just like that.
Instead, they got tons of bugs, server issues, network p2p issues and what else to handle while somebody over there was obviously screaming xbox! xbox! all the time.
They can't even seem to find the time to - finally - deliver the ships they've promised. And that doesn't work in their favor. There's a limit to anyone's patience, especially the backers who put more money in this game than anyone else.
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Planetary landings/missions won't come for free though. I can guarantee you that.
Actually, I'd be surprised if anything you mentioned in that line would come for free except for maybe another go at an improved mission system, although not planet side.

More that I think that for a game that's supposedly in a released state, and has been out for seven months, there's hardly any actual gameplay to speak of. Everything there is to do, can be done in the space of two days. The rest of the gameplay consists of doing those same things over and over again without any interesting twists or features. Not exactly what you'd think of as a 'living' universe. And certainly not a dynamic one.
Agreed. As I said earlier, the 'living' part can be solved simply by graphics. Give npc's faces. Add transport ships from/to planets. Maybe some NAMED persons at black markets. Not that it changes anything but these are all little things that do add up making it feel more alive. I really hope the devs understand that a few small things might change the immersion a lot more than something big.
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I also agree about the dynamics or, better said, the lack thereof.
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Sometimes I do a lot of missions for the same minor faction. My rep changes positively. The station shows up green and give me a nicer welcome message. But in the end, I hardly feel like anything is changing at all.
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They SAY the outcome of system takeovers can be influenced by players.
But even if the devs come here and show us the source code, I would still have a hard time believing it because nowhere in the game the player is being told what is happening.
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If only a faction would add some flavor to mission completions with messages like "thank you commander, this <bladiebla> what you've just done has turned the tides in our favor" or, if more players are working for the other team, the faction you work for could give more and more depressed messages over time, asking and eventually begging for help. I think they already have the numbers. That is be part of the background sim. They 'only' need to transform it into immersive flavor text. Of course it's never as easy as we all think.
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Also, everything is just way too random. That doesn't help immersion either. Events should have been global. If an npc pirate is harassing a certain system, all players should be able to see that mission asking for his destruction. Or what about pirate factions sending out a fleet of ships. Missions could request players to help and destroy them. Instead of a single random 'for one player only' mission, it could become some type of group effort. But these things need to be static so other players can join in. just like the community goals but on a smaller scale.
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Aah.. sometimes I do wonder how the game would have looked like if they didn't rush the release as they obviously did.
I've played several hundred hours of Elite - I was bored after 20.
Bored after 20? If that's really true, this game will never be what you want it to be.
 
Well, Abomination, I'd probably be playing right now if my CPU hadn't short-circuited and burned out four days ago, as I was grinding a route in my trade 'conda.

I guess I should just be patient and see what direction the game takes.
 
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I'm sorry for your loss. The death of a PC is always sad. :(
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But yeah, some good points about the balancing of features.

Is it a sim? Needs more signs of life. More moving background stuff.
Is it a MMO? Needs much better communications and ability to team up.
Is it sandbox? Needs crafting.
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It is kind of close, but no cigar on all these things. Frontier needs to focus on finishing off on at least one of them.
 
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Well, Abomination, I'd probably be playing right now if my CPU hadn't short-circuited and burned out four days ago, as I was grinding a route in my trade 'conda.

I guess I should just be patient and see what direction the game takes.
Then don't lie to us! You aren't bored!! Well.. bored because you *can't* play, heh? ;)
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Joking aside, I hope you get your pc up and running soon enough and the cpu is the only thing that got damaged.
Short-circuits on that level normally don't play nice on the rest of the system either.
And indeed. Time will tell. Let's hope for the best.
 
I have been playing elite for a few weeks now, I have just over 60 hours in the game and am comfortablely running a kitted out viper and working on my diamond back scout for exploration. Now, I don't know of people just had far to high expectations, or if they just get bored very quickly (very quickly because I get bored easy and am still having fun), but even with the current content I don't see myself running out of things to do. So far all I have done is exploration and bounty hunting and some missions here and there and I feel like there is a ton of stuff I still need to uncover. I guess where I'm going here is that it would probably help a lot to know how many hours people who have issues with the games development have put in. It just seems unfathomable to me that anyone could put In less than a couple hundred hours In this game and be bored to the point of quitting. If that is the case, maybe this just isn't the type of game for you, don't get me wrong, I want continued content and longevity In elite and I would love to stay engaged long enough to exceed my record hours in a game (500 in cs go) but how many games come out these days that you can even manage to get more than 20 hours. Not many, at least not many story driven single player ones and I know those aren't a fair comparison, buy dollar value I think elite is well worth the price. It would also be helpful if the OP posted some viable solutions for the problems so the rest of the community could add onto them and maybe FD will take note. I did read your entire post and I respect your opinion, mine just seems to be quite different than yours.
 
OP: You are correct on all counts. the game starts off pretty fun, nice gfx, nice flight controls, and there is indeed some stuff to do and some goals to reach. But once you've got there, you're pretty much left twiddling your thumbs.

My personal worry is that nothing they have announced they're working on will address the core problems. Walking around a ship or landing on a planet wont make the bland missions any more fun.

Unfortunately the introduction of PP destroyed the already 'dumb' [IMHO] missions - I would like multi point, multi-item - multi-location missions not A-B-A for x units cargo - now under PP it is either destroy missions - clear pirates/authority/traders/bounty - wait for a bit and the same 'destroy targets' can count for all the missions - get 6 in one sector and all you need to worry about is the highest total, become stationary on reaching the sector and they all come to you - fish in a barrel!!!!

No all the cargo missions vanished - only mining is for items you cannot purchase - although some Palladium - which I hold to encourage pirates and interdictions.

So best option is swap for sidey or Cobra Mk3 go to 'open' and expect the unexpected - and do not care about what happens.

I have 'grinded' enough for 17+ ships - not interested in creds - happy to stick with Vulture/Asp & Cobra - got T-6 or T-7 for cargo - adders & haulers for quick skips across sectors - just having a daft 30mins every so often of meaningless play.

PP is useless [IMHO] joined power - all I saw was daft cargo leaflets or propaganda - no relevance - no please protect trading convoy, defend station from attack, patrol boarders etc - just carry valueless items for 'merits' - dropped it within a few days and 4+ hours.

So PP can be scrapped - but with 1.3 & PP came a rebalance of missions to a almost worthless level - yes I can see 250K missions for 2 items etc - but why bother - the station does not use it - often it exports it - very narrow and non impressive feature - please fix missions in next fix - as it is terminal at present

Have I so far had fun for a Beta backer - yes - worth it - OK - see any reason to spend more than 1-2 hrs per week - Not at the moment.

Good luck to all new CMDR's it is fun and a great expanse to examine but very limited - nothing in PP or Elite currently seems a purpose - to waste time and just enjoy - yes it ticks the box!

Wanting more - thought I was 'promised' more - may be once they focus on the game rather than XBox etc and develop the idea - then it will get my attention.

I am still playing - but it is not the game I turn to to invest experience in. If it still does that for you - play on & I may see you 'out there'
 
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I have been playing elite for a few weeks now, I have just over 60 hours in the game and am comfortablely running a kitted out viper and working on my diamond back scout for exploration. Now, I don't know of people just had far to high expectations, or if they just get bored very quickly (very quickly because I get bored easy and am still having fun), but even with the current content I don't see myself running out of things to do. So far all I have done is exploration and bounty hunting and some missions here and there and I feel like there is a ton of stuff I still need to uncover. I guess where I'm going here is that it would probably help a lot to know how many hours people who have issues with the games development have put in. It just seems unfathomable to me that anyone could put In less than a couple hundred hours In this game and be bored to the point of quitting. If that is the case, maybe this just isn't the type of game for you, don't get me wrong, I want continued content and longevity In elite and I would love to stay engaged long enough to exceed my record hours in a game (500 in cs go) but how many games come out these days that you can even manage to get more than 20 hours. Not many, at least not many story driven single player ones and I know those aren't a fair comparison, buy dollar value I think elite is well worth the price. It would also be helpful if the OP posted some viable solutions for the problems so the rest of the community could add onto them and maybe FD will take note. I did read your entire post and I respect your opinion, mine just seems to be quite different than yours.

It takes as long as you've played to save enough credits to buy ONE module for Python. The game isn't long because its content rich, its long because of the time it takes to access said content.
 
Elite is designed so that the minute you first drop into the game, all gameplay paths are open to you. You can choose to be a pirate, a trader, a bounty hunter, explorer, or a miner, and you can get a reasonable sample of all of these types of gameplay very quickly without ever having to buy a new ship. So what happens to the average player once they've done everything the game lets them do? See, at this point, I'd shredded Elite anacondas with my Viper's multicannons, explored a vast swathe of empty space and brought back scan data, run a few hours of trading in my Type 6, and run enough missions that I had seen every possible permutation and twist that could occur - There weren't very many, and the missions were horribly generic - Go here, find an instanced USS, locate X commodity, kill Y number of Z type of NPC, etc.

...

And here's the meat of it. We were promised a galaxy with which we could interact, blaze trails and pave the way for development, a galaxy focused on emergent gameplay, but what we got instead was a series of progress bars, spreadsheet statistics that determined the limited and utterly boring missions available to us, and an often-broken background simulation that governed the economic prosperity and expansion of systems. There was no place we could call home, no place we could BUILD a refuge of our own. We could, over many weeks and through long labour, topple a power on behalf of another power, make its influence grow, and let it spread to other systems, and gain absolutely no recognition or reward for it, save the payouts for the generic missions we had to grind. The NPCs who we were 'allied' with, the factions whose fortunes we had made through our work, would shoot us unblinkingly if we forgot to ask for docking permissions before entering one of their stations, or if a stray laser blast struck one of their ships when defending them from an attacker. The galaxy seemed as far from living and relatable as it could get. There was nothing a player could become personally invested in, nothing to care for, and no rewards to be reaped from loyalty to a faction or a cause.

The game's been out for over seven months now. When will it become fun?

I think the problem lies somewhere deep in Frontier's philosophy, because the core of Elite is so good that it can hardly manage not to be fun, yet, with a combination of long running, but vaguely annoying bugs, failure to write a proper manual (or to explain new features in something approaching readable English), and particularly in—as you rightly identify—failing to provide a way of making players feel at home, the game very often seems worthy rather than entertaining. At times, Elite seems more like work than a game and when I watch Frontier's thought police descend on the guys at EDMC for providing a tool which does something that Elite should have had at its core all along, I kind of wonder if they aren't going to manage to foul up a potential classic despite themselves. It is almost as if Frontier used up all their very considerable reserves of imagination in the first round and have put the accountants in charge of development!

I totally agree about the fines/bounties for stray lasers etc., that kind of thing is intensely annoying for the very reason that when that kind of thing happens, you end up having to abandon your 'home' and go elsewhere. Sure, it is only a game, but having spent a major part of my life tinkering around with people's minds, a key piece of advice for Frontier is that even games need a place of safety. Hell, even I get annoyed when one stray cannon round hitting the wrong ship means spending a week elsewhere, and of all people, I should definitely be able to rationalise that one away. If non-lethal strikes were reduced to non-bounty fines and if the polis did not automatically drop what they were doing and chase the offenders back home, that would be an excellent thing and it would possibly also stop the current side-show where the polis spend half their time shooting at each other!

Some quite small tweaks would fix this 'home' thing, I think, and bring back the fun. First of all, it would be great if the starports had more individuality—everywhere in the universe looks the same, which diminishes the sense of time and space. Introducing some ratty old, poorly maintained, asteroid battered textures in less wealthy systems would do a great deal to personalise Elite's world. Frontier has done a great job making the outposts reasonably individual, with creative mix and match of a clutch of core components and textures, but I would put in a big vote for extending that a great deal in order to introduce a feeling of having arrived somewhere different. The worst moment in the game from this point of view is when you drop into the hangar, only to find that is is (more or less) the same hangar that you just left. What about some wear and tear, and some graffiti? These are supposed to be working ports, for Pete's sake, and we all know what they look like.

I totally agree about the missions, it would hardly take any effort to introduce more variety as the forums are full of good ideas that Frontier could raid. A missions update would be a great crowd pleaser if it was done well. As it is, when you drop into the same hangar that you just left, you get to read the same set of missions on the bulletin board as the ones on the bulletin board you read before departure.

If the populated universe slowly expanded, with a few new stations appearing every week, then the more adventurous players could trade and fight on the frontier, where, needless to say, Elite would be much more dangerous. With a war on between the outlaws and the inlaws (apologies), commodity prices could skyrocket, and making your fortune trading or fighting would be possible, but only if you survived. I would dump the CZs and increase interdictions system-wide on the frontier, to encourage fights between armed traders and NPCs, not to mention PvP. The mechanism for this already exists and the idea of fighting my way in to deliver a fortune's worth of goods in a heavily armed ship really does appeal as relaxation at the end of a hard day's work. And yeah, I might get killed instead, but that is what Elite was always supposed to be, a great game, and dangerous.

Make it so, Frontier.
 
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It takes as long as you've played to save enough credits to buy ONE module for Python. The game isn't long because its content rich, its long because of the time it takes to access said content.

Try EVE Online. Long grind is looooooooooonnnng!
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On the upside: good crafting. Players can band together and eventually, through mining resources, buying a blueprint and acquiring construction skills, build a player-owned station together.
 
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Try EVE Online. Long grind is looooooooooonnnng!
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On the upside: good crafting. Players can band together and eventually, through mining resources, buying a blueprint and acquiring construction skills, build a player-owned station together.

Yeah, there's a good reason I don't play EVE :p (Besides the fact that the UI gives me PTSD..)
 
It takes as long as you've played to save enough credits to buy ONE module for Python. The game isn't long because its content rich, its long because of the time it takes to access said content.

I guess that really depends on what your goal in the game is (not the cost of modules, obviously that's a fact). Maybe it just doesn't take a lot to keep me entertained but I enjoy just exploring and collecting bounties and combat bonds. It has yet to feel like a grind to me only because I don't do that for the credits; I have been partaking in one of the community goals as a way to earn a decent amount of credits but it's only because I get to do something I would do without reward, explore. Again though, I think anything will get boring after a couple hundred hours and I think that for people who have played that long and are now bored, it would be a good idea to voice your opinion and get some of your ideas out there and then maybe take a break until something new and exciting gets implimented. I just don't think it's all that fair to blame FD for ones boredom after playing for that many hours.
 
I was going to reply again and list out everything that is broke within the game, I got to #41 on the list and decided not too as it really is pointless. But it made me ask myself why do I play the game? "I love it" I thought, then I wondered maybe I just love the idea of it and am too dense to know the difference..
 
I guess that really depends on what your goal in the game is (not the cost of modules, obviously that's a fact). Maybe it just doesn't take a lot to keep me entertained but I enjoy just exploring and collecting bounties and combat bonds. It has yet to feel like a grind to me only because I don't do that for the credits; I have been partaking in one of the community goals as a way to earn a decent amount of credits but it's only because I get to do something I would do without reward, explore. Again though, I think anything will get boring after a couple hundred hours and I think that for people who have played that long and are now bored, it would be a good idea to voice your opinion and get some of your ideas out there and then maybe take a break until something new and exciting gets implimented. I just don't think it's all that fair to blame FD for ones boredom after playing for that many hours.

Yeah, you'll start feeling it when you start to notice how much longer it takes to get to new content, basically after you get through with the Cobra. And "older" players are voicing their opinions, in threads like these. Where people continually tell us how we're playing the game wrong and we should just drink the cool aid and use our imagination :p
 
Hey OP,
you got it right.

What adds to this, is that with every major game update,
they tend to do the same mistakes again.
Just look at the merit system in pp and compare the "payout" or merit gain to the first "release version"
where combat got the worst share of the income. (merits in czs/ credits in cz)

Then we have reappearing errors that have been fixed in previous hotfixes and continue to run into the same
problems again and again.
Every update adds to the grind,
allthough some details in the gameplay change
and new ships give at least some space to breathe,
it is nothing new coming out.

Old issues don't get addressed in depth,
which would be necessary to the favor of adding new paint to the grind.
Players have posted great suggestions, which seem to be considered
but those are not added to the game at all.

What i do like though,
is that pp creates a community,
players you team up with to further a common goal.
I have quite a good time in pp,
winging with my power's lads,
but this experience is dulled by bugs and the grind in the background.
Which drives players into becoming mindless zombies...

Now what can we do?
Add even more player feedback?
Suggest more changes?
 
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