Dear FDev

Epic fail. Please do not speak for solo players as you obviously have no clue. I AM a solo player, and I enjoy both community goals and powerplay. Like a great many solo players, I'm not against multiplayer, just player versus player combat. I love the concept of the galactic game of risk that I can contribute to in solo.

That's a good argument.

I hope that you also understand players who love concept of galactic game where others can't switch to solo from open for 15 minutes/hours, because they'd like to run away/oppose/undermine/prepare bad systems/escape blocade ?

It would be best to separate it. I'm really curious how would the numbers would look like afterwords (playercounts).


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I was about to get all spooked out then before I realised you must have seen my shields post :)

It wasn't much harder in Open truth be told, only a few single players and no wings. I should imagine that most Winters players know that the best defence to such undermining is doing whatever it is they do for expansion systems, and in this case it worked as the expansion was successful.

Thanks for your example though, sometimes I don't want to have to deal with stuff like that, and other times I would relish it. Nice to have the option though.
I can imagine a system blockade all too well, got chased out of Lave/Leesti loads :)

Yeah. Currently blockade is not being used also because we all know it's ineffective. I'm really sad of that, as that would do great gameplay.

I even did analysis of players choosing OPEN/SOLO based on ships they're actually flying with clear shift (the very same players, doing open/solo shift): I'm playing trader = SOLO, I'm playing combat/multirole = OPEN. I used for this community goals data + starport visiting players (which contained both modes players).

What's a difference that players switch to solo from combat logging. Both are used to evade offensive player. If open/solo switch is ok, than combat logging is also ok.
 

Yeah. Currently blockade is not being used also because we all know it's ineffective. I'm really sad of that, as that would do great gameplay.

I even did analysis of players choosing OPEN/SOLO based on ships they're actually flying with clear shift (the very same players, doing open/solo shift): I'm playing trader = SOLO, I'm playing combat/multirole = OPEN. I used for this community goals data + starport visiting players (which contained both modes players).

What's a difference that players switch to solo from combat logging. Both are used to evade offensive player. If open/solo switch is ok, than combat logging is also ok.

So I did a quick PvP build DBScout ("PvP build" to read "cheap rebuy" :p) and checked in Sengen Sama and all the players there are anything but Winters - as you say, the most effective defence against PP undermining is PP expansion/fortification. On the other hand though, these other players are from other powers, and they *do* seem to be racking up quite the bounty doing what they are doing.....

Woah there, big difference. If you hit Open, you know what you're getting into, no excuses whatsoever for "combat logging" (I hate that term, it's losers quitting, plain and simple).
 
Blockades are SO 2-Dimensional.
Trying to control what others do by imposing rules is SO Newtonian - and has no bearing on the nature of Control in a Universal Waveform.
Which Nature Is Self-Control

SaliDali.jpg
 
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* SINGLEPLAYER SOLO was designed (due to have lower cost: confirmed by the FDEV(sic!)) to use the same instance of galaxy (hereby influencing MULTIPLAYER (here OPEN)
* SOLO gamers purposely use it to harm players in OPEN (more to that later)

Lets focus on the crux of where you see the issue:

Your claim that people from solo "harm" or "undermine" players is just that, a claim:

1) You can't actually tell what anybody does in SOLO as you can't see them, and so you will forever be unable to prove your claim.
2) If anyone has any interest to "harm" players in open, it would be only your fellow PvPers from OPEN removing themselves from your grasp temporarily.
If FD implemented a rule, that once you play in OPEN, you can't go back to SOLO for 2 weeks or some such, you might end up with even less people in OPEN.

And you're in no way special for being "harmed" by others impacting the background SIM. I have to deal with the best trade routes deteriorating fast, because there's a zillion people I can't see hauling away 500 tons of the same stuff every 15 minutes. So what? Game's a little more challenging. ok. Maybe the other guy did it faster and made more credits than me. Its just a game, we're not even playing for real money, like Poker or something.

3) I hold, that this claim of SOLO players harming the poor, aggressive players in OPEN is just a shill to get a crack at masses of player piloted loot-pinatas to harvest tears.

Its no different from Banks financing the feminism movement for reasons they'd never admit to: They couldn't stand it, that half the adult population paid no taxes (most of which end up in bank's hands, since Governments around the world borrow money from private banks and then pay a large part of their tax income to banks in the form of interest. Banks never cared about women, they just saw that Feminism could be used as a lever to be able to squeeze a much higher percentage of the population for taxes like lemons. The result: both parents work but aren't actually doing any better financially. They have to pay house hold help, nannies etc, so all home making has turned into taxable income. And their offspring ends up getting raised largely by others, rather than their busy parents.

The effort to get women some equality was perverted by the aggressive, greedy and power hungry people who run things. (As could be expected, given the last 2000 years of human history - we need to finally evolve or go the way of the dinosaurs)



Finally: competition. Yes, western societies work their hardest to instill the idea of competition into every child's mind. I find it one of the most detrimental aspects of our schooling and general brainwashing of children. If there's some dark purpose behind this, I don't know, but it isn't good for anybody. In Asia, there's more focus on teaching children cooperation. I find it works out much better for the families here, where children don't go as far away as they can as soon as they turn 18, and competitive thinking isn't completely removed either - its just less over-emphasized.

Of course, the brainwash fails on some children completely, while some are greatly affected and end up becoming hyper competitive, where they can focus on almost nothing else. Everything in life becomes just a means to prove oneself, to be "better" than someone or everyone else.

When winning in competition becomes the only way to feel 'ok', of course all the rule sets become incredibly important, they must be "perfect" since even the slightest disadvantage is impossible to accept. Then threads like 'open vs solo' start and never end.
 
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Hi All,

Really like the dog photo 2nd or 2rd post. Nearly spat my coffee out. That is some masterful, bitter, sarcasm. I would not have posted without it!

We do not get problems forming wings, but tend to be mostly in pairs, very occasionally in 4 - for trading bonuses, nothing NPC combat wise requires 4, better as 2 pairs of 2. So it might be by being small scale we avoid issues. So not sure I see the broken, but a lot of complaints so hey. Actually we did have a wing problem a couple of weeks ago, resetting a netgear router helped! Only Frontier will know the ratio of failure to successful wing instances, and therefore the priority. I do not assume my experience is the same as others, I just do not know how big the problem is as it has always worked to some degree since 1.2, and pretty flawlessly for us post 1.3. I imagine if it does not work for you, pretty important if you want to play with friends.

I agree with the view of the mission system particularly the need for greater transpancy (will the NPC be wanted if I take the kill mission etc). Thumbs up for persistent NPCs.

Not sure I care about solo/open as much

The rest will come in time.

Simon
 
they will never fix open solo dillema

therefore PP will just be another boring grind fest

because grinding defenceless 15 merit traders > anything else worth doing.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator

ad !?!?!?! You're wrong:
* a game was not release for another year till alpha
* it was few weeks comparing to few years (before correction of this by 'no offline mode message')
* it was MID campaing, so this WAS part of campaign (e.g. half of people pledge with this message)
* Frontier itself confirmed it was an original goal
* It was discussed in comments on kickstarter even before this date
* You're wrong that kickstarter campaign only mentioned online mode.
* it was TWO years between this (2012) and your wrongly comment 'only online mode' (2015)

I'm shocked by your inability to admit a mistake. I feel that's because it would invalidate your line of arguments.

As to the second part, we disagree. It's fine to have different opinions.

As to the third part: the same as ad1, you're wrong IMO. FDEV cited cost issues. FDEV cited also that's their opinion (sic!) is that this reduces experience of game play. Clearly something (promised) was taken back, and this was reason for refunds. This is a root cause, not reduced experience as it can't exist without mode removal which is actual start of problem. Also note, that whole episode clearly confirmed it was (perceived) bad. Current and never-ending OPEN/SOLO discussion also confirm that this is (still) a problem: players perceive it as such.

Anyway here, you're again changing topic of this paragraph (and OP point to fix OPEN/SOLO): SOLO is being used to harm (and compete with) others - it's a reason for fix. I'm still surprised that people have problem with it. Maybe it's the same as in one: admitting this would invalidate their line of arguments.

Of course the Kickstarter included a second Solo mode, i.e. Offline, which was introduced some time after the original pitch was made - I have been referring to the timing of features - the ability to play alone in a game that did not, at the time, have an offline mode when being able to play alone was first mentioned implies that that would have to be online. That meant that there would be two ways of playing Solo - online and offline. Sadly, the Offline mode was cancelled before the game was launched.

You are perfectly at liberty to hold opinions as to the nature of Powerplay, however, in my opinion, it is more likely that Frontier would remove Powerplay than "fix" Solo.
 
they will never fix open solo dillema

therefore PP will just be another boring grind fest

because grinding defenceless 15 merit traders > anything else worth doing.

I thought this was a fascinating review......
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNkWAZS2Bnw
.
Ok, the review itself is pretty lame and wrong on many counts........however, its "flavour" is that Elite Dangerous is a boring space trucking game........the video has been seen 180,000 times.......
.
In the comments section, it almost seems universally against the video, people are REALLY sticking up for Elite......but if you look at the Votes (The silent majority)......Thumbs up vs Thumbs down........well, it is 72% in Favour of the review....
.
Conclusion.
.
It is much like here.....you have a very loud hardcore trader group that shout and scream down any PvP ideas or threats to solo.........yet the majority, think the game is a boring trucking sim and leave after a few days/weeks.........Due to the old timers and solo traders being so vocal on here, it seems like they are in a majority. But crashing numbers of users on TeamSpeak and votes like here on YouTube tell the true story.......the game is dull and people are turning away in droves.......
 


Yeah. Currently blockade is not being used also because we all know it's ineffective. I'm really sad of that, as that would do great gameplay.
.

Lets imagine for sake of discussion there is no Solo. ED is still instanced, you still cant see players in other instances. You still cant effectively blockade station or anything. All it takes is to seek another instance if one sees heavy enemy presence.

As long as basic architecture is P2P and instances this solo/open discussion is moot.
 
Lets focus on the crux of where you see the issue:

Your claim that people from solo "harm" or "undermine" players is just that, a claim:

1) You can't actually tell what anybody does in SOLO as you can't see them, and so you will forever be unable to prove your claim.
2) If anyone has any interest to "harm" players in open, it would be only your fellow PvPers from OPEN removing themselves from your grasp temporarily.
If FD implemented a rule, that once you play in OPEN, you can't go back to SOLO for 2 weeks or some such, you might end up with even less people in OPEN.

[here removed boring, opinionated and statistically untrue (china is COMPETITIVE as hell among their citizens) text]

Let me address shortly beginning of your response, which is simply false. Let me iterate it for you (I wrote it before your post, please read discussion before jumping in ;-) :
* my group of 30 members temporarily used SOLO to compete and harm other groups of OPEN players
* I did it
* our opponents do it, and confirm it
* people write to use SOLO for parttime of your powerplay as a suggestion to carry tasks against other powers (there is PLENTY of it)
* observing data in PP, while being in SC in a given system shows split of open/solo happens, WITH the very same people switch modes

So no, it's a fact, not a claim. Bear with me, I'm not writing that EVERYBODY is doing it.

And I agree with you, I would love to see time constraint on switching modes. That would be great. I'm not against removing SOLO, I do understand there are players who love to haul commodities/explore etc. alone.

I do however think (while here, not like above, this is my supposition and I may be wrong): OPEN would be much bigger than SOLO (if separated completely) in terms of players count. And people (switchers) know it. Hardcode (yet vocal) solo truckers will chose solo: good for them - but they're minority (which I think can be proven statistically from forums & reddit) . Of course I may be wrong here, but I see a lot of arguments for that, I even thought about starting such discussion, yet I do not accept to being moved into another 5000 pages one thread where you can not effectively communicate. <sarcasm> Of course it was done only for the good, and for newcomers have one convenient place with solo/open debate</sarcasm>. BTW my statistical analysis of people chosing solo/open mode based on ship they're flying was moved there.
 
Lets imagine for sake of discussion there is no Solo. ED is still instanced, you still cant see players in other instances. You still cant effectively blockade station or anything. All it takes is to seek another instance if one sees heavy enemy presence.

As long as basic architecture is P2P and instances this solo/open discussion is moot.

Nope.

Very often, while playing on TS, group of commanders put themselves on different instances on purpose to completely monitor given system. I personally did it few times while opposing Felicia Winters. Is it possible to break such blockade? It is, but much more difficult, as number of instances is much smaller than players. Also in SC this is reduced even more as instances are mostly used for slow flight. Not to mention that 'searching for empty instance' is easily solvable even within current P2P design.

In general, no solo will tenfold increase chances of blockade, so your argument is moot. It's like saying: vaccine helps only 50% of people against HIV. Its useless, don't use it, i want that 50% (to be possibly cured) be ill and die of HIV, because HIV is a god thing and we must be with it ;-)
 
It is much like here.....you have a very loud hardcore trader group that shout and scream down any PvP ideas or threats to solo.........yet the majority, think the game is a boring trucking sim and leave after a few days/weeks.........Due to the old timers and solo traders being so vocal on here, it seems like they are in a majority.

Funny you should say that, I was discussing with some members of our player group and my PP faction's IRC participants before putting a thread on here and they all advised me not to do it because I'll just get shouted down.


Anyway I didn't post this thread to be argumentative, that was not my intention. I thought there were some very obvious flaws that were critical to the game's growth/success that should be pointed out. Forgive me for bringing up the Solo/Open argument, I also did not intend for this to be a continuation of another thread, after all it was only one part of my suggestions (but seems to be the focus of the discussions).

Just for the sake of my own understanding though, could someone enlighten me on the reasoning behind the opposition to split universes. I do think that would be a nice solution to keep everyone happy, which would be a smart business move for FDev. Again sorry if this was touched upon in another thread (I cannot bring myself to read that 400 page thread). I haven't heard a rational point against it other than accusations that "I'm not playing the game right".
 
It doesn't need to be addressed because there is no issue to address. Why?

Because Elite: Dangerous is not a competitive game.



It's not cooperative either. So we have been left with a "hang around together"-kind of multiplayer.
Facebook does it better.
 
If anyone of the Frontier Developments reads this:

I am so glad that you made your game the way it is, thinking of every type of players who can choose their playstyle and change it as they wish.
Best experience i have ever had in a space sim game.

Please i beg you stay true to your vision, to your plans and do not cater to the whiners.

Thank you!

Ps: It is obvious that english is not my native language. I apologize.
 
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Presumably that would be up to CCP to develop as EVE is their IP....

CCP devs cannot develop themselves out of a wet paper bag.

The amount of promised and planned content they "delivered" over the last 10 years compared to what they ACTUALLY delivered is a sad statement of their ability to cut corners and deliver broken unfinished poorly thought out features.
 
Please i beg you stay true to your vision, to your plans and do not cater to the loud minority.

Ha. Here is, you (and also me) don't know who is minority, so no reason to be so strict, as you may be the minority ;-)

I'm really (and in academic honest way) curious what are the real numbers of: OPEN vs SOLO players (with switchers counted to one of them based on where they spend >50% of their gameplay). I have few ideas how to calculate it using forums and in-game data (PP,CG, + 24hrs visitors stats), yet not easy ones :( and without 100% faultlessness result.

Whats is double curious for me is that silence (despite multiple questions from community) from FDEV about it is either connected somehow to their business performance OR (that's my bet) that response would prove some design decision wrong and a lot of gasoline on already heated OPEN/SOLO controversy...

I'm really open to hear some *good* arguments in favor for any directions!
 
The silence about this topic by the devs is a clear statement for me that the system they have, the way they made their game is for a reason and it's here to stay.
I hope that I'm right, and they won't change their system for whatever reason.
 
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