Diamondback Explorer or ASP - which one is a better cheaper exploration ship?

[goemon]

i myself was writing more than once: a dbe is so much cheaper than an asp, and it gives you almost the same jumprange - go for it! GammaZ argued in a thread it is not, and he is right.

DBE and asp have very similar cost, the difference will be around 1-1.5M, and asp is noticably better.

here is why:

first look tells you, dbe is 1,6 million CR to purchase, ASP is 6,1. so the dbe is cheaper, isn't it?
but nobody will go exploring in a stock-dbe or asp.

so you will fit a A class frameshift-drive, a fuelscoop, D-class thrusters, shields, life-support, sensors etc. - D-Class for weight -, the smallest a-class powerplant sufficient (for heat-efficiency) etc. this is where the cost come from. maybe you will want to add a heat-sink and an AMU for emergengy, too. the actual expense for your exploring ship comes from the modules fitted. the joke is, you can fit every modul you buy for your dbe on an asp,too - or even a cheaper one which is more efficient.

a dbe fitted for maximum jumprange is around 13,3 million CR

an ASP fitted the same or cheaper, but more efficient moduls is 14,9 million CR

Difference: 1,6 million CR
That's less than 15% difference! ​

Proof (D-Class Shields and AMU and Heatsink fitted for emergency. the two AMU in the asp are cheaper, have more repair-capacity and can repair each other

DBE: http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70i,mpV0Wg,2-3I6u7_5K2C5K8I,4_w0MC7Q42jw2UI

ASP: http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70g,0Wg,2-3I6u7_6u2C8S8I,52gmpT0Ke0J47Q42jw2UI


Okay, but why should i pay 1,6 Mio CR more?

1. Jumprange: the ASP build has 1 ly jumprange for. didn't you consider the DBE for it's jumprange?
2. Fuel-Scope: the ASP 6E - Fuelscoop fills your tank faster than DBE's 4A. Any credit spend there (on an 6D, 6C, 6B Fueldscoop) make's it even faster. you don't need that 28 mio CR 6A-Fuelscoop.
3. Turning-Rate: The ASP has a better Turning-Rate, which applies in supercruise, too. So flying between objects will be a little faster
4. you can upgrade your ASP with the money you make, you can't with your DBE.

Okay, but I don't have 13 or 14 million CR...

well, than you will not fit that 5A frameshift-drive to your DBE, and not that 4B AMU or maybe even not that 4A fuelscope. there is nothing else to sacrifice. which will let you end with around 26 ly of jumprange and around 9 million actual costs.

but with >9 million CR you can go for this:

hauler (3 mio - 26 ly jumprange - 4t fuel tank, no AMU)
adder (4,3 mio - 26 ly jumprange - 8t fuel tank)
diamond back scout (5 mio, 27,5 jumprange, 16t fuelrange, no AMU)
cobra (8,3 mio - 26 ly jumprange - 16 t fuel tank)

all of these builds are maxed out, do fuelscoop faster, and have a better turningrate.

... but i love my dbe...

that's fine. enjoy! there are people exploring in an orca, or going in a vulture to sag a*. but it's not true, that the dbe is a cheap starter exploring ship before the asp. i made my pioneer in an adder, which i use for smuggling nowadays - because i love that ship.

(i think the dbe will have it's time when it comes to deep space battles against big ships, due to its large hardpoints)

 

[Ziljan]

It's well known that the DBE was a wasted ship slot even before 1.3 went live, but the devs ignored the useful feedback on the ship and Mike Evans even threatened to nerf the ship more if we kept complaining. Despite this threat, myself and a few other vocal forum posters still campaigned for a fuel scoop buff but were sidelined by noobs who loved the looks and were blinded by the jump range, and the callous indifference of FDev.

But it's not all doom and gloom. The DBX does look pretty cool, and costs about 1.5 M less to outfit than an Asp for various bargain basement level explorer builds. It also has excellent heat characteristics and decent maneuverability in super cruise, which helps you maintain your speed during scooping.

If you are willing to completely gut your survivability in human space and slot the lowest possible power usage parts (eg an A2 power plant with a d1 PD and basic thrust), you can actually complete jumps in just 2 seconds longer than a standard defensive Asp build while still getting just enough fuel to only have to stop to fill you tank every 1000 LY. But that is only if you are a highly skilled sun skimmer with VERY low power usage. And this is fine when you are in the Black. But eventually you will want to turn this data in, or visit a station. As soon as you linger in a human system for more than 30 seconds, you are apt to get interdicted regardless of affiliation. And when you can lose all of your data in a single unlucky interdiction, this means that you will need to rely on a wing of friends to keep you safe.

Luckily there is no shortage of awesome people who are willing to escort you to your destination, but relying on a wing is asking quite a lot from a ship that only saves 1.5M on an Asp build...

here is my sun diving build, and yes I could probably beat most of the Asp times for Buckyball with it, but would I ever make it back alive? ...50/50 at best:

http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70i,mpV01Q,2-3I6u7_5K2C5K8I,4_w0MW0Ky2jw2UI

 

[Lord_Itchybum]

I have used both ships for exploration and quite frankly there is very little difference between the pair. Currently I am using the DBE and it is a perfectly good ship.
I see no issues with the fuel scoop either. So it takes an extra 20 seconds to fill the tank. If you are that desperate to fly fast then use the ASP.
I use those few seconds to check emails, Facebook etc. It breaks up the endless jump, scoop, jump, scoop, jump, scoop.

This is my DBE build.... http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70i,mpV0Wg0Wg,2-6u6u7_5K6u5K8I,7Re05U0Ky2jw2UI

It costs less than 9 million credits

 

[IronGremlin]

No mention of the staggeringly cooler operating temperature of the DBX?

In my mind that's a pretty significant asset.

I run an Asp because the view from the canopy can't be beaten, but I gotta say, running 30% cooler sure was neat.

 

[goemon]

This is my DBE build.... http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70i,mpV0Wg0Wg,2-6u6u7_5K6u5K8I,7Re05U0Ky2jw2UI

It costs less than 9 million credits

your build does not have ANY fuelscoop, it's hard to believe you go exploring with it ;-)

- - - Updated - - -

No mention of the staggeringly cooler operating temperature of the DBX?

In my mind that's a pretty significant asset.

I run an Asp because the view from the canopy can't be beaten, but I gotta say, running 30% cooler sure was neat.

i'd say: check your heatmanagement. with all unnecessary moduls (shields, cargo hatch etc) turned off i never experienced any heating issues in an asp.

 

[Lord_Itchybum]

your build does not have ANY fuelscoop, it's hard to believe you go exploring with it ;-)

Ooops, my bad!! But to be honest I am at work and bored out of my mind and gorging myself on Tim Tams.

Update and the cost goes up to 11.7 Million. But I still love my ship because I can start charging the FSD for a jump while still scooping and be out of the system before I hit 100% heat

http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70i,mpV0Wg0Wg,2-6u6u7_5K6u5K8I,4_w7Q40Ky2jw2UI

 

[goemon]

it's not that complicated.
purchase price of dbe: 1,9 million.
purchase price of asp: 6,1 million. difference: 4,2 million.

cost of A4 fuelscoope for dbe: 2,85 million. scooping time: 1 min 34 sec.
cost of ASP E6 fuelscoope: 0,1 million. faster.
difference purchase dbe - asp including fuelscoope: 1,6 million CR.

all other modules can be fit as well in dbe as asp.

i'm not saying, that the dbe is a bad exploring ship. i'm only saying, that there is no money reason to get a dbe instead of an asp.

 

[Kuroshio]

I prefer my Asp as well. A couple of notes, though, because I tested her little brother quite excessively:

Supercruise turning rate: The DBE does not turn slower than an Asp in supercruise. (Timed with both of them fully A-spec'd, I didn't have the patience to downgrade them both.)

Heat management, scooping and AFMUs: A 6E or 6D scoop on an Asp might, on paper, be faster than the 4A. You can, however, push the DBE to its maximum scoop rate really fast (D-spec'd, with all modules running) and jump out while still in the corona. This is one aspect of the DBE's excellent heat management, the other point is that it results in a dramatically lower risk of heat damage from binaries and other dangers out there - you don't need a lot of repair capacity, because the DBE is much more forgiving when you make mistakes. It requires a lot less skill.

Returning home: Unless you plan to dock at Lave when returning, the DBE's fuel tank is large enough to guarantee a safe return to any harbor within 150 light-years from the edge of the bubble, with one jump left for a fast escape. If you top her up before entering the bubble, there's no need to stop and scoop, and if you have to, the heat management is good enough to let you hide in the corona. (I can highly recommend doing that at least once, it's fun watching a NPC trying to get into an interdiction position and dropping out of supercruise.)

A versus D: The DBE can be loaded up to the brim with shield boosters, weaponry, and bobble heads on the dashboard while still having the power to run all that and a 29+ light-year range. For only 21-23 million credits.

1.6 million credits: Let's be honest here - I can spend 6 million credits for a dedicated Fuel Rat Type 6 and A-spec my Cobra for sentimental reasons, and it doesn't hurt my account. But that wasn't always the case: I bought a discount Asp from a Community goal back in March, and I had just enough money left to fit her out for exploration and keep her insured. 1.6 million may not seem much, but it is the difference between having an ADS or not, and at that point in the game, it takes time to make that kind of money.


In the end, the DBE simply isn't a ship you want if you already have an Asp. But if I were to start all over, I'd be happy to take the DBE for one or two long tours in the black as soon as I could buy one, while looking forward to buying an Asp on my return.

 

[Whiterose]

I am going out in a DBE. Its a matter of variety, I have always used the Asp, and I wanted to try something different. I will give feedback in a couple of days.

 

[Equinoxe]

I have both ships.

Love the Asp.

But the DBE has a slightly better jump range and is almost impossible to overheat when scooping. I decided to stay with the DB for future exploration.

Different strokes....

 

[tiger61378]

The Asp is on my wishlist right now, but my DBE Endless Transit is currently dragging me deep into the black (although I keep getting sidetracked with unexplored systems, even if they are just ice balls...someone has to scan them, For Science!). I love the Diamondbacks because of the looks and handling, and so I'll be keeping her around for a while, even if I do get an Asp after I come home. Although the Asp will probably just end up replacing my Type 6 as my mining vessel anyways.

 

[Ziljan]

I have both ships.

Love the Asp.

But the DBE has a slightly better jump range and is almost impossible to overheat when scooping. I decided to stay with the DB for future exploration.

Different strokes....

If you are using the best gear for each, then the opposite is true. It is almost impossible to overheat the Asp because it scoops so quickly. Meanwhile, the DBE is very hard to not to overheat if you are speed jumping like an Asp. The good news is that you can speed jump in a DBE, which I previously believed was impossible. It takes a great deal of concentration and is fairly stressful because the heat is redlining on most jumps. I can't imagine doing that for 26,000LY to Sag A* and not getting a few new grey hairs.

But if you want sun diving grace, there is no comparison. The COBRA is the Johnathan Livingston Seagull of fuel scooping finesse. The heat never goes above 80% and because of the speed saving turn characteristics of the Cobra, you can leave the Corona at 0.43c instead of 0.31c in an Asp/DBE. This slight difference leads to a big boost for zipping around a system because the speed increase is based logarithmically on the prior speed. This also speeds up FSD charges so that you can linger in the Corona without the star's mass inhibition hurting your jump times too much.

So to answer the question: Which ship is better for exploring, the Asp or the DBE? The answer is: The Cobra. Otherwise known as 42.

 

[Cdr Voorheez]

Not meaning to go off topic too much but I am currently using a Cobra for exploration having tested the admittedly very pretty DBE on a short run. The fact that the Cobra has faster more agile scooping, runs very cool (ok not as cool as a DBE), is fast in normal space (therefore more insurance for your very expensive cartographic data cache) and is considerably cheaper (The fit below was approx 7.5mil) is an absolute winner for me.
Yes I only have a 25.90LY range but I have the warm fuzzy feeling of roaring round in a Cobra which I can easily retro fit to BH or trading after returning from a long trip to wherever.
I am sure the rich will scoff at the poor as they always do, but I am happy with this ship. I was a very vocal advocate of the DBE until I was shown the hard science of the Cobra's benefits, of which there are many.

Whatever you choose good luck, the Diamondback Explorer is a lovely ship, and I admit I miss her alot. I hope FD make her better as she rightly deserves.

My Cobra Build: http://coriolis.io/outfit/cobra_mk_...---32430q242i2f.Iw1-kA==.Aw1-kA==?bn=Intrepid

 

[Raiko]

The DBX has been gimped too much, I'd been really hoping for a smaller fighter-sized ship that could mount the Asps mighty 5A FSD, for the ultimate long-range racing ship, and so the Diamondback should have been the answer to my prayers.

It's the correct size, as it fits on the small docking pads, but even though it's smaller than the Asp, it weighs 10t more for identical configurations hence the shorter range. Somewhere on the DBX there's a 32t class 5E 'ballast module' that the devs have fitted, and if someone can find a way to swap it for a 5A fuel scoop then they'll have a terrific ship!

Had the DBX been lighter than the Asp (like it should have been), then it would have had a better jump range, but the Asp would still have been a good choice because of the versatility offered by all it's module slots (especially the big class 5 & 6 slots). There would have been two great exploration ships, one slightly cheaper with a better range, and one slightly more expensive with fantastic versatility.

Instead we've unfortunately got one great ship, and one great looking but slightly gimped little brother.

- - - Updated - - -

I am sure the rich will scoff at the poor as they always do, but I am happy with this ship. I was a very vocal advocate of the DBE until I was shown the hard science of the Cobra's benefits, of which there are many.

The Cobra's a great ship, so you can just laugh at any fools who scoff at you.

 

[chesdj]

I actually went a bought a DSE yesterday to try and look at, as i wnated one for my shipyard and the discount is still on at Wolf 406.

I had a bit of a play with it not that impressed with the feel of it, so it's parked up whilst i take one of my Asp's out into the great unknown. )

Probably spend some more time with it at some point and may grow to love it. But just at the moment i'm a bit 'meh' with it.

 

[fruitbat]

You want a cheap ship for exploration, well it isn't the diamond back, The type 6 is the answer,

http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70W,mpU0Wg,2-3m6u6Q3m2C3m6k,50ompT0MW0MWmpT2jw2UI

30ly jump range (32 max), scoops quicker than the explorer (412kg vs 342kg) and costs a shade over 5 million.

 

[Kancro Vantas]

I just love my Asp too much to give it away just like that. Is my only ship and is fully kitted. I haven't been in the bubble for three months now so I havent even seen a DB yet ingame. I love the looks of it and want to get one when I get back home.

I hate the fact that the DBX is heavier than an Asp. Shouldn't. I think I will get the DBS instead and use it for urban exploration of planets, stars, stations and markets inside the bubble.

For the deep, long exploration journey: nothing can beat my Asp!

 

[Ziljan]

Supercruise turning rate: The DBE does not turn slower than an Asp in supercruise. (Timed with both of them fully A-spec'd, I didn't have the patience to downgrade them both.)

Heat management, scooping and AFMUs: A 6E or 6D scoop on an Asp might, on paper, be faster than the 4A. You can, however, push the DBE to its maximum scoop rate really fast (D-spec'd, with all modules running) and jump out while still in the corona. This is one aspect of the DBE's excellent heat management, the other point is that it results in a dramatically lower risk of heat damage from binaries and other dangers out there - you don't need a lot of repair capacity, because the DBE is much more forgiving when you make mistakes. It requires a lot less skill.

Returning home: Unless you plan to dock at Lave when returning, the DBE's fuel tank is large enough to guarantee a safe return to any harbor within 150 light-years from the edge of the bubble, with one jump left for a fast escape. If you top her up before entering the bubble, there's no need to stop and scoop, and if you have to, the heat management is good enough to let you hide in the corona. (I can highly recommend doing that at least once, it's fun watching a NPC trying to get into an interdiction position and dropping out of supercruise.).

In the end, the DBE simply isn't a ship you want if you already have an Asp. But if I were to start all over, I'd be happy to take the DBE for one or two long tours in the black as soon as I could buy one, while looking forward to buying an Asp on my return.

Yes the rotational turning rates are identical, however the DBE has more "intertia" so making turns at full speed inside a corona is a bit more chaotic and harder to manage your depth with accuracy.

The DBE has significantly better heat management which is useful for binaries and escaping NS crashes. One quibble though, you cannot jump from inside the corona as claimed above, not unless you are in normal space! You will fry up. You can however begin charging FSD from inside a corona and even stay there for a bit.

As as for returning home I am not sure what you mean by "safe return". The DBE is slow enough and light enough and with a weak enough hull that it can be destroyed by a small NPC ship. The only way you can dock safely is if you have a clear path to your station. But NPCs spawn at stations, so there are no guarantees here. It's all a dice roll.

 

[Kuroshio]

Yes the rotational turning rates are identical, however the DBE has more "intertia" so making turns at full speed inside a corona is a bit more chaotic and harder to manage your depth with accuracy.

Personally, I think the DBE has less and not more inertia than the Asp when turning, but I changed the springs in my X-55 somewhere along the way, and it might be that it simply suits them better. I didn't run a test series on that issue, so that is a highly subjective statement. It's heat management, however, gives you quite a margin of error, so accurate depth management isn't as necessary as with other ships.

I noticed - ever since I mothballed my DBE and returned to the Cobra for multi-role and the Asp for exploration - that I have actually become reckless when scooping because the DBE dealt so well with heat. It's a forgiving ship, which makes it, in my opinion, quite well suited for the aspiring explorer.

The DBE has significantly better heat management which is useful for binaries and escaping NS crashes. One quibble though, you cannot jump from inside the corona as claimed above, not unless you are in normal space! You will fry up. You can however begin charging FSD from inside a corona and even stay there for a bit.

Mea culpa. I meant, of course, that:

Spoiler

Not that:

Spoiler

Because even I am not doing that again. Ever. (107 % heat, but it felt like 250.)

As as for returning home I am not sure what you mean by "safe return". The DBE is slow enough and light enough and with a weak enough hull that it can be destroyed by a small NPC ship. The only way you can dock safely is if you have a clear path to your station. But NPCs spawn at stations, so there are no guarantees here. It's all a dice roll.

Well, yeah, that may happen, but, and that's my personal opinion: If I start selecting my equipment for the remote possibility of being interdicted in those five to seven light seconds of distance or in the real-space vicinity of an allied independent station, I better start taking strong defenses - for which the DBE will not sacrifice as much jump range as other ships. (And it can hide quite well.) But those things are simply not necessary in my neck of the woods, and the danger of being interdicted while scooping is - with six 30 light-year jumps in the tank - non-existent when you have a good home port. (Unless they reintroduce the 1.1 interdiction rate out in the black.)

I promised myself to give that ship a chance and to see its flaws, so I spent a lot of time in it. My result remains that I prefer the Asp, the DBE feels like a downgrade. But, to be fair, I spent a lot more time in my Asp than in any other ship - it's mine, it has roughly 100,000 light-years under its belt, we've been through a lot. Coming from that, the DBE has nothing of value to offer to me, except having a fast explorer (fast as in in jump range and tank size, not scooping speed) on standby while I run missions with the big brother. I don't really need it. But then again, I'm not scraping for credits anymore, desperately trying to afford a ship with a 30+ range.

In my opinion, the problem with the DBE is a problem of release timing more than anything else - smaller, less capable ships tend to be judged negatively by us, because we are already spoiled by their larger cousins. A Cobra is fun if you can afford to toy around with it while your Asp, Vulture and company get a well deserved holiday, but if it's the only ship you can afford, it might feel different. You might long for a ship that can reach places you need jump range for, or a large tank; or a ship that can be locked and loaded and still be able to get there.

Let's be fair, the DBE has the third highest jump range in the game. It easy to scoff at that when you have an Asp or an Anaconda and 1.6 millions seem like small change. But in the (financial) beginning, that's a lot of money. Even more if you don't mind scooping times and fit a 3A - suddenly it becomes 3.5 million cheaper than an Asp, and it will still get you there. No other ship in your price range can. And you'll be happy about it.

And from the money you make when you return, you can buy an Asp and never look back.

 

[Ziljan]

Nice pic!

As for jumping inside a Corona, well. I think everyone has their own style of sun diving. There is the basic U dip, the tangent line, the skim and twist, the orbit, the park-n-scan, etc. Mine is different for each ship, and my secret recipe for the DBE is quick enough that the difference in speed with an Asp is small even over large distances. It gets a bit toasty though, and is a bit challenging especially for beginners. So the DBE can be the "easiest" or the "most challenging" ship to sun dive with, depending on how much skill you can apply, and how fast you want to go. Strangely, the faster you go, the harder it gets. The opposite is true with the Asp which can do blazing fast sun dives with an A6 fuel scoop without even breaking 60% heat. However if you put in a B6 scoop and try to speed jump you will regularly hit 80%, and that is much closer to the DBX experience while scooping.

So yeah, despite all of my whinning in prior threads. I now think the DBX is quite balanced with the Asp in terms of price, but the amount of skill required to get every last ounce of speed is tremendous and exhausting over long distances. Not sure if I'd try do beat the speed record for a BB Run, though I am sure I could do it now.