Perceived unfairness, or how to make people angry.

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Sure, there are companies with different variations of communications with players. Doesn't mean one is preferable over another - they work or don't work for different reasons.

However there's catch - claiming that FD doesn't communicate is rich. It's simply not true. Claiming that FD doesn't tell their roadmap or don't tel details about releases upcoming but yet far away is fair assessment. Guess which one is getting thrown around these forums a lot since beta.

As for communication I have said that FD really doesn't bend to player's will. They listen, assess complains and work on providing solutions - if they find they need one. I guess that's getting some people irked, but last time I checked, 60USD (or less) is not enough to buy complete ownership of FD. As for the game and players - they DO care. They just regularly avoid forums because 'critics' these days are mostly very toxic people, which are inclined to driver their points home and find some strange satisfaction of 'being right'.

 

[ElectricZ]

Hi Sandro, thanks a bunch for taking the time to chat.

I'd like to add to what drhay53 was saying about PowerPlay feeling like a separate add on. It's great that you can not participate in PowerPlay if you don't want, but having it divorced from the background simulator is mystifying. By that I mean two things:

1) factional alliance vs power play alliance means nothing. You can work your way up the ranks in the Federation or Empire to the very top and then pledge allegiance to an enemy power. You up merits for that enemy faction, destroying ships from your parent faction and unsurprising their systems to become a rockstar in that PowerPlay faction... and your parent faction still greets you with a hearty "Greetings respected ally" when you dock at one of their stations. I guess it's good to have a choice, but it torpedoes the illusion of any kind of real political struggle and certainly takes away having to make and live with a choice.

2) Bulletin board missions vs. PowerPlay missions. A lot was said prior to 1.3 about how the mission structure was being overhauled. A little more variety has been added, and now there are requirements for faction friendliness and pilot status. That's all well and good, but is PowerPlay ever going to have bulletin board style missions? Right now PP missions are basically haul 10 tons of PP Widgets from HQ to System Y for fortification or System Z for control, etc., wait for an arbitrary clock to generate more, wash, rinse repeat. Or, head to a Military Strike area for Conflict Zone missions. To be an effective PowerPlay participant, you really have to limit yourself to flying between the same handful of systems over and over to do the same missions over and over. Why aren't there bulletin board style missions that can help out your faction? That would give pilots a lot more freedom to choose how they play, smuggling, trading, bounty hunting, assassinating our way up the ranks. As it stands, if you want to do any of those things, you have to ignore PowerPlay. And if you want to participate in PowerPlay, all of those activities have to fall by the wayside. Not to mention that any local rep you get by running missions doesn't factor into PP, nor do the missions that you run for your faction have any effect on local rep or reputation with the parent faction.

For something that is supposed to help shape the geopolitical landscape of Elite Dangerous, it sure is disconnected from the main game. Integrating with the Bulletin Board for missions would really help with that in my opinion. Missions could be tailored to fit the PP Faction. Militant factions like Hudson and Delaine would offer more bounty hunting and conflict zone missions. Politically minded leaders like Mahon and Aisling Duvall would have missions to win hearts and minds, delivering diplomats or rescuing slaves. And the schemers would use sabotage, spy missions and assassinations to further their goals.

That to me would be a lot more interesting than hauling 30 tons of "garrison goods" from HQ to Target System X, and help PowerPlay feel like it's part of the Elite: Dangerous universe and not a separate but nice looking overlay.

Thanks for reading!

 

[napoleon85]

While I do agree that there's an "Empire bias" (if only for the fact that they have Imperial Slaves, a real money-making commodity), the point about ALD being unfairly brought back to life is nonsense.

For the record - I didn't pledge to ALD.

If a power can go from #1 to #10 without outside influence all in one day is nonsensical. IF she were undermined and attacked from all sides by all other powers in a concentrated effort to bring her down? Then yeah, sure, I'll dig that! And I ALSO dig that larger powers should have more internal issues making their life harder.

But, again, to go from #1 to #10 in a single moment only because they expanded? That's madness. Think on THAT for a while.

It wasn't "in an instant" as you say it was. This was the effect of 2-3 weeks of undermining and poor decision making by ALD pledges.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander GluttonyFang!

With regards to Poweplay modules: all I'm saying is that we're aware of various complaints and suggestions from Commanders. We also have our own thoughts on the matter in the design team. Right now, we're going to take a little while to see how their usage pans out. Based on feedback and observed results over time, we might tweak them. We all need a little time to see how things bed in before we come to final conclusions. I remember when we released the Vulture there was a fair bit of worry initially about it being ineffective due to its limited hardpoints. I'm not saying its the same case here, just that we need to let the dust settle a little.

These kinds of call are something we have to do on a per-case basis. Feedback is great and very useful, but Commanders have a tendency to view things through the prism of their own experience and desires (which is perfectly reasonably of course!), whereas we have to consider all the angles, no matter how boring or unimportant they might seem to an individual player or group.

I'm not sure your analogy about manners is correct.

To be clear: If debate is polite, I'll listen to anything you have to say and take such opinion onboard. I may not act on it, but I won't dismiss it out of hand. But why on earth would you think that I have to put up with rudeness? I wouldn't put up with it from my employer, regardless how much they were paying me.

I understand that people get passionate. That they get frustrated. I do myself, on occasion, about all sorts of things. That does not mean I have the right to treat people badly and expect them to be civil in return. Regardless of what problems I might have, in my opinion, being rude or mean is simply not acceptable and certainly not the answer.

To put it another way: if someone gave you an opinion on a subject, and you disagreed with them, and let's say for arguments sake that both opinions were equally valid, would you be more inclined to change your mind if they started insulting you?

As I've stated in the past, I'd love to be able to go through in detail all the decisions we make. But the fact is that it's not always possible, for several reasons (time being the main one!) We do listen, it's just that we have to listen to everyone, and then make a decision. It's not always the one a particular individual or group might want, but it's always what we believe will be best for the game.

Hello Commander EUS!

I can fairly categorically say that you would be incorrect with the assumption that we' made a change to Powerplay based on an invisible script for powers or story.

To try and be brief: we had a formula that kicked out undesirable results, only manifesting when powers became large. We've hopefully addressed it, and effectively rolled back the undesired effect it had caused.

Perhaps it's easier to say: we found a rule we really didn't like and thought was bad for the game (affecting any power that got big enough), so we changed it. Not to save a particular power.

If more players had chosen to side with Hudson (or been more effective with Hudson) then it would be Hudson that would have been rolled back.

There was no invisible script for powers beyond the starting conditions for them.

Hello Commander Cadoc!

Yes, of course you are right, that's a great point: mercenary ideals could (would?) be swayed by perceived quality of rewards. It gets really interesting though - as different folk perceive quality in different ways - it's all somewhat subjective!

So whilst as designers we try to achieve some form of parity, there's always the chance that A) we could make a mistake, and B) large groups of folk (but not all folk) might perceive quality different to our metrics.

And that is why there is likely to always be an element of "giving things a bit of time" rather than snap reactions. I'd rather we make fewer changes than more, given the choice.

Also, we have to put this into the mix: there are *definitely* some Commanders who aren't following mercenary ideals. Plus, there can be a disconnect between the efficiency of Commanders (just because you have mercenary ideals does not mean you have the ability - or even time, to affect Powerplay results equally with everyone else).

And of course, none of that encompasses potential future additions.

In conclusion, all I can say is: we do listen, we can't always please everyone, but we're all after the same thing: the best game we can make and enjoy.

Hope this info helps.

 

[znôrt]

This seems really unfair to everyone else

who is everyone else? who was actually lavigny-duval? this is not like controlling your ship and taking responsibility.

you would have a point if players really had decisive control over powers but nobody really owns or represents any of them. they are just the noise generated by collective gimmick, there's no real competition and fairness between powers isn't even a consideration.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Please do not play strawman with me, I never indicated that the developers "never" communicate, therefore do not misinterpret my posts on purpose to strenghten your argument.

Yes you did, my furry friend. When you say you must be daydreaming because a dev communicated, you clearly insinuate such communication normally doesnt happen. Tinman shows you this dev alone did so over a 1000 times.

"Hey, he just did what he has done over a thousand times before, I must be daydreaming" makes not much sense.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

One thing Sandro is that money and perks really doesn't make anyone else outside mercs to go support powers. Those who are less interested in meta game but still interested in power system and supporting power need some hooks to keep them going or get into PP. If you want anyone role play outside just of pure self interest that it

I guess Michael comments about this indicate you have plans for this, but just to clarify why maybe currently power system is basically battle of self interests - mostly.

 

[Trafalgar Law]

It wasn't "in an instant" as you say it was. This was the effect of 2-3 weeks of undermining and poor decision making by ALD pledges.

What undermining? We rarely had more than 5 or 6 systems undermined. As for poor decision making. We weren't supposed to try and reach number one spot by lots of expanding? What were we supposed to do then, just be content as number three? The simple fact is that by playing the game and reaching that number one spot we ran into a arbitrary brick wall, that every faction would have hit sooner or later, regardless of any decision making. Thus the devs sensibly decided to alter the mechanic and change the formula that was creating the brick wall that we'd just hit.

 

[Lobstris]

PP has great potential and my favorite part is how clearly influence shows on the galaxy map.

While I DO have a lot of opinions about mainly the rank, merit and payment system the one main oddity for me is the following:

As an Empire supporter for Arissa (because I genuinly LIKED her political stance) we can go to a FED or ALL controlled system, prepare it for expansion and take it over for our Empire political faction.

Now, the Emperor is still in power and regular diplomacy and politics are in effect. YET, our PP faction is allowed to impose faction laws and ultimately IMPERIAL laws on systems ruled by another major power.

Should not the major factions have EXTREME issues with a foreign power pushing their laws on their citizens. And what would the implications be to a PP faction when the (in this case) Empire get into a diplomatic incident due to what the Emperors relatives are doing?

It would be like France or Russia changing local state laws in South Carolina and USA allows it but is technically still in charge.

Indeed. A system internally flipping between two factions of a major power is 'interesting', but a system flipping between major powers should be a major diplomatic incident affecting all players (solo, multi, aligned, non-aligned, whatever) at the very least, or the start of a proper hot war involving lots of very heavy ironmongery at worst. As much as I dislike PowerPlay, the current approach of trying to keep everyone happy and things almost entirely separate, doesn't seem to make much logical sense.

 

[znôrt]

Tinman shows you this dev

wooot? tinnman?? i must be daydreaming!

 

[GluttonyFang]

Sure, there are companies with different variations of communications with players. Doesn't mean one is preferable over another - they work or don't work for different reasons.

However there's catch - claiming that FD doesn't communicate is rich. It's simply not true. Claiming that FD doesn't tell their roadmap or don't tel details about releases upcoming but yet far away is fair assessment. Guess which one is getting thrown around these forums a lot since beta.

As for communication I have said that FD really doesn't bend to player's will. They listen, assess complains and work on providing solutions - if they find they need one. I guess that's getting some people irked, but last time I checked, 60USD (or less) is not enough to buy complete ownership of FD. As for the game and players - they DO care. They just regularly avoid forums because 'critics' these days are mostly very toxic people, which are inclined to driver their points home and find some strange satisfaction of 'being right'.

Again, I never claimed that FD does not communicate at all, the lack of it, on the other hand is blatant.


Of course $60 doesn't make me a stockholder, and I do not expect the game to sway in every direction I suggest it to take. However, I expect there to be some sort of serious response when people put in the time and effort to communicate.


Ex.


"Thank you for your input and suggestion, however, I feel that we disagree with this point for the following reasons ..."


Not blatant ignorance of the playerbase.

 

[nosscar]

I recently left my power, i hope the design team do make some changes, as feedback, and in my view i would like to see these to tempt me back.
Reduce the decay, i felt it to be weight on my shoulders "having to get x no of merits per week."
make it somehow more personal, like i "feel" i am needed to do my bit.
change the bounty/fines for defending yourself against attacks in hostile territory.
If i am attacked and die, fine.
if i choose to run fine,
if i kill them after being shot at fine. just lose the fines/bounties.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

This is the same mistake Gordon Brown made with the banks...have we learned nothing?

Powerplay, too big to fail?

Duly repped +1

- - - Updated - - -

I know how I feel now, that PP is just a cover for your internal game, but thats ok, I'm fine with that.

Welcome to MegaTraveller, or Traveller:2300. Or, anything after The Virus.

 

[Eriseley]

Will new powers be introduced if old ones fall? I appreciate players shaping the universe by the choices and all, but the universe could get pretty stale without the developer stirring the pot sometimes.

 

[Tinman]

No one is robbing you of your right to be FD's white knight. At the same time it grants me the right to criticize FD. Let's get that out of the way first.

Ah...the old "white knight". Classic!

First of all...I have plenty of things I would like FD to do differently in terms of prioritization and in regards to specific aspects of the game and I have many times talked about these constructively. So if you think I am always "defending" them you are way off...not that this has anything to do with anything...

You can of course also say whatever you want and I have never said anything else...but this is a forum. Don't complain if people don't agree with you. And please don't try to label people. This doesn't help the discussion in any way whatsoever.

The reason I even commented on that first thing is because I'm allergic against hyperbole...

Please do not play strawman with me, I never indicated that the developers "never" communicate, therefore do not misinterpret my posts on purpose to strenghten your argument.

Ok, let's replace "never" with "almost never" then...better?

Again, I never mentioned anything about "post per day," the join date is to indicate when did I become a member of the community on the forum.

And the date indicates what exactly in relation to the total post number? That you have less posts only because you have been here for a shorter time? In other words: Less posts...per day.

"If you were their boss." Well, if I were their boss and I found them communicating so little with the community with a forum full of player complaints, I would fire them. See what we are playing here?

Ping-pong probably. But if I was the boss I would probably first take note of why people are making complaints and analyse the situation before firing the lead designer.

If you want an example, check out Warframe. Livestream every other Friday for an hour to provide details on progress of development and what is to come. Lead developers of different department and the community manager are present. Also, Prime Time where the developers/community managers play their own game.

While on livestream, developers constantly speak of and mention forum posters and their twitter/social media accounts and the message they receive from them and their emails.

So? That company A does one thing doesn't mean company B must. However...these kind of livestreams have been mentioned as something Edward want to do more of and with the increased community team I fully expect to see more these pretty soon.

I'm certain no contract says anything about the magnitude of player interaction mandatory to a developer. But there are certainly companies out there that have the common sense to realize their community is a priority.

So does FD.

Also, I don't believe doing the minimum of what is a part of the contract is a healthy attitude for any developers to have. It's equivalent to saying "as long as I have your money, I don't care." Is that what we should expect?

Didn't you say something about strawman...?

 

[GluttonyFang]

Hello Commander GluttonyFang!

With regards to Poweplay modules: all I'm saying is that we're aware of various complaints and suggestions from Commanders. We also have our own thoughts on the matter in the design team. Right now, we're going to take a little while to see how their usage pans out. Based on feedback and observed results over time, we might tweak them. We all need a little time to see how things bed in before we come to final conclusions. I remember when we released the Vulture there was a fair bit of worry initially about it being ineffective due to its limited hardpoints. I'm not saying its the same case here, just that we need to let the dust settle a little.

These kinds of call are something we have to do on a per-case basis. Feedback is great and very useful, but Commanders have a tendency to view things through the prism of their own experience and desires (which is perfectly reasonably of course!), whereas we have to consider all the angles, no matter how boring or unimportant they might seem to an individual player or group.

I'm not sure your analogy about manners is correct.

To be clear: If debate is polite, I'll listen to anything you have to say and take such opinion onboard. I may not act on it, but I won't dismiss it out of hand. But why on earth would you think that I have to put up with rudeness? I wouldn't put up with it from my employer, regardless how much they were paying me.

I understand that people get passionate. That they get frustrated. I do myself, on occasion, about all sorts of things. That does not mean I have the right to treat people badly and expect them to be civil in return. Regardless of what problems I might have, in my opinion, being rude or mean is simply not acceptable and certainly not the answer.

To put it another way: if someone gave you an opinion on a subject, and you disagreed with them, and let's say for arguments sake that both opinions were equally valid, would you be more inclined to change your mind if they started insulting you?

As I've stated in the past, I'd love to be able to go through in detail all the decisions we make. But the fact is that it's not always possible, for several reasons (time being the main one!) We do listen, it's just that we have to listen to everyone, and then make a decision. It's not always the one a particular individual or group might want, but it's always what we believe will be best for the game.

Thank you very much for addressing the particular concern about PP faction module, and I agree that players will have bias in the opinions they voice, and prioritize different things. These things are inevitable.


All I wanted to hear from you and the developers is that you are collecting and responding to those multi-facet concerns and show that you are working on issues that have polarizing opinions among the playerbase. I also understand that time is a rare commodity for developers.


I will emphasize that when players spend a lot of time and effort in constructing suggestions and proposals for the game, some sort of dev acknowledgement should follow. (Let it be minor as a tag/check mark on the thread [creating a tag should be easy on the forum], to a full-blown, detailed reply based on the developers'/company's discretion)


However that was not the case, which led to players repeating/circling the same concerns/arguments for that they fear their voices aren't heard/communicated to FD. Allowing this to drag on will result in nothing but frustration of the players. Then when matters finally reach the boiling point, tossing out the kettle won't save the water. Instead, adjusting the temperature actively from the very beginning, will. People were civil, but when they are continously not conspicuously acknowledged, they will become frustrated.


I apologize if I came across as uncivil and insulted you, or any of the other developers. I understand my criticisms may seem harsh and unforgiving, but I can assure you it is not my primary method to communicate with others when my converse partners acknowledge my existence and entertain my perspectives.


Again, thank you very much for taking the time to respond and clarifying the issues, I hope that there will be more frequent communication between the playerbase and FD (regardless of magnitude, even just a asterik on a post/thread suffices, a reply would be a treat/displaying importance of the issue, or even a sticky, weekly community hot topic thread where it compiles the concerns of the community for the developers to look at for easy access and convenience).


Faith in FDev communication with the playerbase++;
Respect for Sandro++;

- - - Updated - - -

Yes you did, my furry friend. When you say you must be daydreaming because a dev communicated, you clearly insinuate such communication normally doesnt happen. Tinman shows you this dev alone did so over a 1000 times.

"Hey, he just did what he has done over a thousand times before, I must be daydreaming" makes not much sense.

I believe it was quite an obvious sarcasm/hyperbole ... I hope it was not too difficult to decipher...

 

[withnail]

I'm enjoying this thread.

Thanks for responding devs.

 

[Arindor]

For that statement to be true that would have to apply to "ALL gaming". It doesn't apply to me...therefore it's false.

There is plenty of other examples too, but all I need to disprove your claim is written above.

Fair point TM. I was a bit hasty with the PQR button.

I should have mentioned that at least ED offers other gaming elements too (otherwise I wouldn't play it).

 

[yul7896]

I just read this whole thread, for the most part. A great discussion here, there are several points and concerns I had not considered myself. Thanks to all involved.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Ah...the old "white knight". Classic!

First of all...I have plenty of things I would like FD to do differently in terms of prioritization and in regards to specific aspects of the game and I have many times talked about these constructively. So if you think I am always "defending" them you are way off...not that this has anything to do with anything...

Ah, it doesn't have anything to do with anything, yet it was mentioned...

Good to know that you are contributing to the diversity of the community, much appreciated.

You can of course also say whatever you want and I have never said anything else...but this is a forum. Don't complain if people don't agree with you. And please don't try to label people. This doesn't help the discussion in any way whatsoever.

Right... because you replied to me for that you agreed with me... Oh wait, you disagree with me and you are complaining about it...

Hold on, how to sound out "hypocrisy" again? Let's be honest here, we are debating with one another because we disagree with one another, isn't that kind of natural? The first thing I wrote in my thread is that you are allowed to defend FD on the subject while I am allowed to voice my opinion for that they are of equal intrinsic value, did I not? So what is this about?

The reason I even commented on that first thing is because I'm allergic against hyperbole...

Well, I am allergic to a lot of things, too, but I tolerate them. See a difference?

Ok, let's replace "never" with "almost never" then...better?

Thank you for being accurate, yes, almost never.

And the date indicates what exactly in relation to the total post number? That you have less posts only because you have been here for a shorter time? In other words: Less posts...per day.

That is your interpretation, and you are free to interpret so. You were the one that brought up total post number, to begin with. But if we do utilize that train of thought, I replied with the join date merely to mirror, or rather parallel your argument. Since post count is nothing but E-peen contest. How many hot issues that got addressed should be the factor for consideration.

Ping-pong probably. But if I was the boss I would probably first take note of why people are making complaints and analyse the situation before firing the lead designer.

Good, then we are agreeing on that matter.

So? That company A does one thing doesn't mean company B must. However...these kind of livestreams have been mentioned as something Edward want to do more of and with the increased community team I fully expect to see more these pretty soon.

Good to know that there will be more player interaction. However, you were the one questioning the existence of transparent/interactive developers. Red herring is fun when the discussion isn't serious, I hope that is the case.

So does FD.

Evidently there's a disagreement between our conclusion, then.

Didn't you say something about strawman...?

I thought you're allergic to hyperbole, probably slippery slope, as well, what happened to your hyper-sensitivity?