I can't see the npcs ever getting too tough to be honest. Not when people expect to fly slow, defenceless haulers with no escort.
NPCs now too tough for casual players
- Thread starter robaberry
- Start date
I think making the NPCs more difficult has been one of FD's better decisions of recent times. I'm in a Viper, of moderate combat ability i'd say, and fully aware that there's no way i'm equipped to take on a deadly Vulture or Anaconda. Actually, just lasy night I followed a USS and ended up surrounded by a group of hostile Vultures who immediately tore up my shields without hesitation. I fled without so much as deploying my hardpoints for a second. It would be ridiculous if the thought had even entered my head that I could take them on. Maybe some day, when I have my own Anaconda and ridiculous amount of combat exp it will be feasible, but for now it's just a pipe dream, and I like that.
I've been following this thread with some interest and just wanted to add my 2 credits worth. From my perspective I do wonder if there may be a disconection in a lot of the discussion here between the difficulty of the AI and the difficulty of the game.
As with many others in this thread, I've been really enjoying the work from SJA in enhancing the NPC's in the game - I fly in Solo almost all the time, so NPCs are my primary encounters.
However, I can understand how newer, or less combat savvy players, could get intimidated/disheartened out of the game. But I don't think thats due to the scaling of the AI, it's perhaps more todo with the NPC spawn mechanics.
In a year of playing I've been shot down by an NPC once - it happened shortly after 1.0 went live when I was still in my Freeagle - I was interdicted by an NPC dangerous clipper and essentially one-shot-killed. It was... irritating - to say the least. strangely enough, now that I fly a Python and have the combat rank of Dangerous (rather than "mostly harmless" that I was when killled) all I ever seem to meet are small ships up to the rank of Master - which is highly frustrating (getting the rank of Deadly appears a distant dream for me at the moment - especially given the tiny amount of time per week I get to play).
My point here is that with the higher ranked AIs being more capable, having a more balanced spawn mechanic becomes more important.
Absolutely - if a player initiates combat against a clearly more capable opponent, they should expect to get blown into atoms. Similarly, more Dangerous systems should have more Dangerous opponents in them (perhaps the galaxy map could warn/alert less experienced players that they were entering dangrous territory - perhaps as part of the route-planner).
However, players that are clearly new, or very inexperienced are going to get very frustrated if there is no balance to NPC initiated combat carried out aginst them - especially if the RNG spawn gods dictate that their sidey should be interdicted by a Deadly FDL that also just happens to have rolled a psychopathic behaviour that day. I spent quite a lot of time in my first six months of playing the game basically running away from interdictions - but I worry that for new players joining today - is running away more difficult than it used to be?
From a use-case perspective, I also wonder what the "combat/evasion ability" statistics are amonst the player-base (especially if broken down by Rank/Experience). I suspect that combat "savvy" players are the minority, but it would be inteersting to know.
From a personal standpoint I am not in the slightest suggesting that the AI should be dumbed down - on the contrary I am looking forward to the high level AIs being even more human-like and challenging. What I am interested in is the mechanics that determine what kind of NPCs we meet in the game. For me there is a sweet-spot to aim at, where the opponents (skill level, number, ship type) I meet should be just above my capability, so that I am challenged/stretched- not interdicted by "a paper aeroplane flown by an idiot" that should've known better than to attack me in the first place (seems to happen a lot to me right now), but similarly not "one-shot-killed" by a squadron of elite Anacondas.
Fly safe, Commanders.
As with many others in this thread, I've been really enjoying the work from SJA in enhancing the NPC's in the game - I fly in Solo almost all the time, so NPCs are my primary encounters.
However, I can understand how newer, or less combat savvy players, could get intimidated/disheartened out of the game. But I don't think thats due to the scaling of the AI, it's perhaps more todo with the NPC spawn mechanics.
In a year of playing I've been shot down by an NPC once - it happened shortly after 1.0 went live when I was still in my Freeagle - I was interdicted by an NPC dangerous clipper and essentially one-shot-killed. It was... irritating - to say the least. strangely enough, now that I fly a Python and have the combat rank of Dangerous (rather than "mostly harmless" that I was when killled) all I ever seem to meet are small ships up to the rank of Master - which is highly frustrating (getting the rank of Deadly appears a distant dream for me at the moment - especially given the tiny amount of time per week I get to play).
My point here is that with the higher ranked AIs being more capable, having a more balanced spawn mechanic becomes more important.
Absolutely - if a player initiates combat against a clearly more capable opponent, they should expect to get blown into atoms. Similarly, more Dangerous systems should have more Dangerous opponents in them (perhaps the galaxy map could warn/alert less experienced players that they were entering dangrous territory - perhaps as part of the route-planner).
However, players that are clearly new, or very inexperienced are going to get very frustrated if there is no balance to NPC initiated combat carried out aginst them - especially if the RNG spawn gods dictate that their sidey should be interdicted by a Deadly FDL that also just happens to have rolled a psychopathic behaviour that day. I spent quite a lot of time in my first six months of playing the game basically running away from interdictions - but I worry that for new players joining today - is running away more difficult than it used to be?
From a use-case perspective, I also wonder what the "combat/evasion ability" statistics are amonst the player-base (especially if broken down by Rank/Experience). I suspect that combat "savvy" players are the minority, but it would be inteersting to know.
From a personal standpoint I am not in the slightest suggesting that the AI should be dumbed down - on the contrary I am looking forward to the high level AIs being even more human-like and challenging. What I am interested in is the mechanics that determine what kind of NPCs we meet in the game. For me there is a sweet-spot to aim at, where the opponents (skill level, number, ship type) I meet should be just above my capability, so that I am challenged/stretched- not interdicted by "a paper aeroplane flown by an idiot" that should've known better than to attack me in the first place (seems to happen a lot to me right now), but similarly not "one-shot-killed" by a squadron of elite Anacondas.
Fly safe, Commanders.
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I've been following this thread with some interest and just wanted to add my 2 credits worth. From my perspective I do wonder if there may be a disconection in a lot of the discussion here between the difficulty of the AI and the difficulty of the game.
As with many others in this thread, I've been really enjoying the work from SJA in enhancing the NPC's in the game - I fly in Solo almost all the time, so NPCs are my primary encounters.
However, I can understand how newer, or less combat savvy players, could get intimidated/disheartened out of the game. But I dont't think thats due to the scaling of the AI, it's perhaps more todo with the NPC spawn mechanics.
In a year of playing I've been shot down by an NPC once - it happened shortly after 1.0 went live when I was still in my Freeagle - I was interdicted by an NPC dangerous clipper and essentially one-shot-killed. It was... irritating - to say the least. strangely enough, now that I fly a Python and have the combat rank of Dangerous (rather than "mostly harmless" that I was when killled) all I ever seem to meet are small ships up to the rank of Master - which is highly frustrating (getting the rank of Deadly appears a distant dream for me at the moment - especially given the tiny amount of time per week I get to play).
My point here is that with the higher ranked AIs being more capable, having a more balanced spawn mechanic becomes more important.
Absolutely - if a player initiates combat against a clearly more capable opponent, they should expect to get blown into atoms. Similarly, more Dangerous systems should have more Dangerous opponents in them (perhaps the galaxy map could warn/alert less experienced players that they were entering dangrous territory - perhaps as part of the route-planner).
However, players that are clearly new, or very inexperienced are going to get very frustrated if there is no balance to NPC initiated combat carried out aginst them - especially if the RNG spawn gods dictate that their sidey should be interdicted by a Deadly FDL that also just happens to have rolled a psychopathic behaviour that day. I spent quite a lot of time in my first six months of playing the game basically running away from interdictions - but I worry that for new players joining today - is running away more difficult than it used to be?
From a use-case perspective, I also wonder what the "combat/evasion ability" statistics are amonst the player-base (especially if broken down by Rank/Experience). I suspect that combat "savvy" players are the minority, but it would be inteersting to know.
From a personal standpoint I am not in the slightest suggesting that the AI should be dumbed down - on the contrary I am looking forward to the high level AIs being even more human-like and challenging. What I am interested in is the mechanics that determine what kind of NPCs we meet in the game. For me there is a sweet-spot to aim at, where the opponents (skill level, number, ship type) I meet should be just above my capability, so that I am challenged/stretched- not interdicted by "a paper aeroplane flown by an idiot" that should've known better than to attack me in the first place (seems to happen a lot to me right now), but similarly not "one-shot-killed" by a squadron of elite Anacondas.
Fly safe, Commanders.
I have said pretty much the same thing on other threads, people keep saying AI is fine and I know there more improvement to come but ignore the rest that goes with AI when it comes to difficulty.
Difficulty is a whole package of things one of which is AI or how npc react but so far SJA is only looking at AI and seems to be ignoring the rest, which is my main gripe.
btw I am not saying this as someone that flies defenseless haulers but rather someone that enjoyes his vulture and trading Asp....my python is sitting in a hanger right now till I can afford to get it nice and tricked out like my other ships....
One person in here was complaining about no difficulty slider in solo and his main gripe I believe was the RNG game when getting interdicted by npc when it comes to wing sizes.
Wing sizes need some kind of control mechanism especially when SJA gets done working on making running harder as she mentioned in some other thread.
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This has been said many times before, but the key to balancing in ED isn't just the AI's raw abilities, its the context under which they spawn. There would be absolutely no need for talk of difficulty sliders and reward modifiers if the same effort was put into the context as SJA is putting into the combat code.
I just don't understand why ED falls so short of the mark in this regard. Whatever the background simulation is doing, it's not doing much to strike a contextual balance between criminal activity and authority response from system to system. If it was, we wouldn't have this ongoing "buff them" / "nerf them" argument about NPCs which only exists because the damned things can spawn pretty much anywhere.
- Pilots flying from Barnard's Star to Sol, or from Achenar to Facece, should be effectively free from interference from NPC pirates. Those AIs who do attack on rare occasions should be desperate lone-wolfers (or gung-ho idiots) of relatively low rank flying Sidewinders or Eagles, and any bounty they carry should be suitably low. High-rank bounty-carrying Pythons or Anacondas should draw the attention of NPC law enforcement long before they have time to trouble a player, and large wings of heavily armed freighters should have authority ships buzzing around them like flies round dung.
- Pilots flying in anarchic systems should expect pretty much anything, including wings of 8 Master NPC Vultures armed to the teeth. But the bounties these ships carry should be amazingly high, to reflect the fact that they've probably been doing this unchallenged for a long, long time.
- Savvy commanders should pick their routes carefully, starting with the least dangerous systems and slowly expanding into those dodgier backwaters as their skills increase. Some players, perhaps the majority of players, may never be able to visit certain systems because the pirate presence will simply be too great. ED is a skill-based game. Some may never develop the required skill to survive those systems, in which case they should fly somewhere else.
- Trading profits earned when flying between or through safe systems should be significantly lower than those earned when running the gauntlet of anarchic space. Likewise missions to carry goods or messages to such systems should pay massive dividends, to encourage the more adventurous players to push their envelopes once in a while. But the option to permanently play it safe should always be there, for fewer credits per hour, controlled by the environment of the game and not by a difficulty slider.
I just don't understand why ED falls so short of the mark in this regard. Whatever the background simulation is doing, it's not doing much to strike a contextual balance between criminal activity and authority response from system to system. If it was, we wouldn't have this ongoing "buff them" / "nerf them" argument about NPCs which only exists because the damned things can spawn pretty much anywhere.
On a plus point, pretty sure I was getting bounties in BODEDI (anarchy), just outside Nanomam pre-patch but that has since been denied...as it should be.
But, like you say, there are things that kinda befuddle me but I think things changed this last patch.
I guess we flag things when we identify them and take it from there.
Live environments are always a work in progress.
If you give the feedback, then they may fix it.
Communication 101.
And this is a far more complex game. PP has confused things that bit more as well.
So, best effort please.
I like how you think though, risk / reward is always good.
When and why NPC's spawn seems to be tied to....ummm, dunno regards PP faction attacks, seems exempt from help yet if Pirate, oh hello, here they come. They don't seem linked currently.
Hudson should have a bonus in his own territory but it's not working in PP related shenanigans. Ever.
Especially in Nanoman as far as I can tell. There is no chance of help related to PP. Pirates yes, PP interdiction not a chance.
So, why am I even working for this guy if he's not protecting his own interests in his own Home System like it says he does?
Is it because the stations are Independent?
I'd just like to know why....if I know why, maybe I can help fix it it but currently, it's too confused.
Just thoughts.
It looks as though they are starting to add the context that you so rightly say is missing. It may take some time to get it right, and as always, balanced, but you can see some of what they are trying to do here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=165393
Let's hope it works.
To be fair things are improving slowly; when I said "there's a little bit of variation..." I should have been clearer and said that each patch has introduced a bit more variation and the trend is good. It really should have been nailed down by now but I think PowerPlay has muddied the waters quite a bit by allowing, or modifying, certain activities in some systems that are at odds with what the default should be. It's confusing the issue just when things should be getting clearer. In the interests of full disclosure I should reiterate that I don't really "do" PP, other than loosely following GalNet, so it's possible I might be a bit behind the curve when it comes to changes if those changes are introduced primarily via PP.
At the end of the day I'm an old-school player and I just want my safe systems to feel safe (unless they're in civil war or other PP effects are putting them under strain) and my anarchies to feel anarchic, and right now it doesn't feel as though the extremes are far enough apart. Zac is right in that the bad guys you find in anarchic Strong Signal Sources are definitely bad news, I'd just like to see more of them patrolling supercruise. In classic Elite when we hyperspaced to Tionisla we didn't have to go looking for the pirates, we just jumped as fast as possible to the station and hoped that they didn't find us. I'm still not getting that feeling of having taken a massive gamble when I jump through such a system in ED, but then again I'm in a small and fairly well armed bounty hunting ship right now so perhaps they're just leaving me alone. Maybe I should go back to a lightly armed freighter for a bit and see if things have changed.
At the end of the day I'm an old-school player and I just want my safe systems to feel safe (unless they're in civil war or other PP effects are putting them under strain) and my anarchies to feel anarchic, and right now it doesn't feel as though the extremes are far enough apart. Zac is right in that the bad guys you find in anarchic Strong Signal Sources are definitely bad news, I'd just like to see more of them patrolling supercruise. In classic Elite when we hyperspaced to Tionisla we didn't have to go looking for the pirates, we just jumped as fast as possible to the station and hoped that they didn't find us. I'm still not getting that feeling of having taken a massive gamble when I jump through such a system in ED, but then again I'm in a small and fairly well armed bounty hunting ship right now so perhaps they're just leaving me alone. Maybe I should go back to a lightly armed freighter for a bit and see if things have changed.
But they didn't interdict
They just mass locked your ship the same as an asteroid would which disabled the J-drive. Combat was still avoidable with good tactics.But that is one of the features that I dearly miss from Elite.
There was a huge difference between anarchic and corporate systems (and a nice scale in-between), not just in combat threat but crucially also with potential profits. The game play was about choices.
In E: D the systems are fundamentally the same. There is hardly any more risk in an anarchy, but there are no advantages to trading there either. Yawn.
Hmmm ... I exactly faced this today as well - after the interdiction I could hit the booster once, I tried to get back to SC after the short cool down but couldnt because of a mass-lock- next on my screen was the bang.
My fully loaded T9 was gone within one or two shots. Looks like FD didnt do a fine adjustment on NPCs. Dont really like such extream changes.
Well if a Cobra equaled a Python then why the price difference ?
It is not because u are a casual player. it is because of your skill level as a player + missing that there is a difference between ships.
If u cannot take a bigger ship urself wait for backup or fly in a wing.
Otherwise hunt smaller prey.
If that fails you, then maybe FFE is the better choice.
It is not because u are a casual player. it is because of your skill level as a player + missing that there is a difference between ships.
If u cannot take a bigger ship urself wait for backup or fly in a wing.
Otherwise hunt smaller prey.
If that fails you, then maybe FFE is the better choice.
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Taking on an AI Python in a Cobra isn't that much of a problem. You need almost all A modules though.
What gripes me the most is that the seek and kill mission now always involve an escort of some sort. So you have your big target, but he often has a couple of friends. I have been able to take out a fed dropship on a mission, that had some friends.. But anything bigger than that or with a bigger group is a problem. Also there is much scaling in the seek and kill missions. Cheap rewards for cheaper smaller criminals/wanteds would be a nice addition.
In regards to being a casual player, use the Cobra what it's best for; Smuggling.
What gripes me the most is that the seek and kill mission now always involve an escort of some sort. So you have your big target, but he often has a couple of friends. I have been able to take out a fed dropship on a mission, that had some friends.. But anything bigger than that or with a bigger group is a problem. Also there is much scaling in the seek and kill missions. Cheap rewards for cheaper smaller criminals/wanteds would be a nice addition.
In regards to being a casual player, use the Cobra what it's best for; Smuggling.
Smuggling needs lots more love. And, shielded compartments.