The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Are we going to really do this? Should we require scholarly citations when somebody says things like "player organisation will lead to griefing"? Obviously what I said is an assumption, but it's not an assumption based on nothing. The trend in just about every MMO is that the majority of players join guilds. I don't see the potential Elite customers as a fundamentally different crowd.

Well now you call it an assumption, earlier you called it truth. When you state things like: the truth is the anti-guild crowd is a minority, then yes, we are going to do this.

And keep in mind that Elite has been promoted from the start as being without guilds. Which did reverberate with players like me, who otherwise would not play MMO's.

 

[telperion]

How about leaving ED alone for the time being. Introduce guilds and player owned structures (POSs) after planetary landings and walking in cockpits have been released. Then the Guilds could have planetary bases which could then be invaded (FPS) by other guilds without needing to copy EVE.

I'm not sure whether I've mentioned it before but just in case I haven't; Copying EVE design aspects doesn't fit with ED's core design philosophy. No matter how much some people want ED to become cockpit-EVE it can't. The original design of ED simply isn't conducive to it.

People really need to get out of this EVE mentality. It's not EVE. It's ED and quite a lot of folks like that. I, for one, played EVE for many years and moved over to ED when it came out specifically because of it's core design. If Frontier were to try to emulate EVE (which they won't, I suspect) it would drive a lot of players off. EVE's core design philosophy is both why it's such a good game for those with unlimited time to commit to it and why it drives so many people away and has such a low player base considering it's longevity.

Viva La ED


EDIT - My actual opinion is that guilds and player owned stations/structures should not be included in ED. I was just suggesting planet based bases as an alternative to copying EVE. I don't actually think it would be a good idea.

 

[Mephane]

I struggle to understand that. Right now, in Elite: Dangerous, you have probably a few dozen guilds operating, with the total membership in the thousands. They're doing their thing right now - claiming systems, fighting each other, running blockades, pirating, supporting Powers, whatever. So this is Elite, for you. However, if those guilds can now invite members in-game, rather than use out of game tools like these boards, teamspeak, reddit, their own forums etc, that's suddenly not Elite? I'm not sure I get it.

Erm this thread is not just about bringing those guild-specific tools of communication and identification into the game, but giving them more control over the game and actual, game-engine-sanctioned ownership of stuff. That is quite fundamentally different from a guild that operates in favour of a particular faction, but within the confines of what anyone, guild member or not, can do.

 

[Roybe]

I say this would highly depend on the particular implementation of that functionality. It could be as unobtrusive as a handful of small friendly outposts at the edge of the bubble, or as right-in-your face as player guilds owning places like Lave Station and violently enforcing their own personal laws, prejudices and vendettas all across the major systems.

But here is the thing, even if the guild content were just some insignificant outposts at the frontier, the guilds will demand more, because they could still look at Eve and draw their comparisons, and we would be back to square one, now discussion how much more power and influence the guilds should get, what kind of things they should be able to own and where. We, the "anti-guild crowd", would keep fighting a retreating battle against what could at least be perceived as an eve-ification of ED, a battle that won't be over until guilds can totally own Lave Station and dictate who may enter Sol and still live.

Can you explain how a guild would 'violently enforcing their own personal laws, prejudices and vendettas all across the major systems'? I need to learn how to completely bypass the games safeguards to make this occur. Or are you expecting the devs to shut down the private 'modes'?

 

[Robert Maynard]

The quote from David Braben in your previous post is hardly an unequivocal veto on guilds ever being in the game. He is laying out his concerns over the potential for mafioso like behaviour if they are implemented, which were quite justified. However, I think he has achieved the objective of avoiding this undesirable behaviour and it is no longer an obstacle to implementing proper groups. Whether he thinks that now, in 2015, I have no idea, but people are organising such groups using out of game tools and so far the sky has not fallen.

The EGX Q&A was in September last year, so 10 months ago. A more contemporary quote comes from his interview with Arstechnica at E3 2015 (so about a month ago):

More standardized online gaming conventions like clans or formalized player organizations aren’t in the cards, at least not for the foreseeable future.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You never fail to crack me up with posts like these accompanied by your avatar.

View attachment 49981

I would think a station mechanism/system that flourishes on Individual occurrences of players docking would work well!

But people could still try to pirate you on route to said station.

Of course, that's the Elite way

 

[Robert Maynard]

Can you explain how a guild would 'violently enforcing their own personal laws, prejudices and vendettas all across the major systems'? I need to learn how to completely bypass the games safeguards to make this occur. Or are you expecting the devs to shut down the private 'modes'?

Why should players be forced to move to the other game modes from Open to avoid a feature that does not exist? Open play belongs to all players, even if some choose not to play in it....

 

[Whiterose]

When an NPC interdicts you and attacks you, is that bullying too?

No because that is one on one or three on one, I accept that and welcome it. What I do not accept is a large "guild" bullying a smaller guild because they have more members. One on one or wing on wing is fine, but what the post was suggesting was that superior numbers should count...i.e bullying.

 

[Sterlino]

why not ?

i wonder the reasons of who voted NO.
immersion breaking, lol ?

please explain.

 

[Cadoc]

I have a few posts addressing me over roughly the same thing, so I won't quote any of them directly. What I'm talking about is option 3 - guilds but no player-owned stations. I mean, I don't think adding, at most couple hundred extra stations on the fringes of inhabited space would affect non-guild players negatively, but I feel there's no point discussing that when there's still no agreement on basic guild functionality. By basic I do mean basic - a guild roster with the ability to invite and kick members and a guild chat (perhaps limited in range from the guild's chosen HQ, be it an existing station or a player-owned one, for the sake of immersion). If you targeted a member of a guild, their guild would display in the same way as NPC minor faction does. This would make things a lot easier and more fun for guild members, and it wouldn't affect non-guild folks at all. For those who desire not to be even aware of the *existence* of guilds, have a toggle in the options that hides guild allegiance of other players. Perhaps if guilds could claim HQs, those could be displayed on galaxy or system map, so those wishing to avoid them could do so.

 

[Roybe]

Why should players be forced to move to the other game modes from Open to avoid a feature that does not exist? Open play belongs to all players, even if some choose not to play in it....

Because we are already accepting this to collect our PvE trophies...at this point the point is moot. If you do not want to be 'harrassed' you have to play in Private. I see no difference in this at this point. If Open was meant to be different than this, then there would be no friendly fire between all PC's.

 

[jabokai]

Perhaps if guilds could claim HQs, those could be displayed on galaxy or system map, so those wishing to avoid them could do so.

That would affect my enjoyment of the game. You said it was a fact that it would not!

 

[Cadoc]

That would affect my enjoyment of the game. You said it was a fact that it would not!

Oh god. Then have a toggle for that too, so your tender eyes are not offended by such unwholesome sight. Have all the toggles! For everything! I'm actually a big proponent of UI customisation, it's one of those second-tier features I do look forward to.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Because we are already accepting this to collect our PvE trophies...at this point the point is moot. If you do not want to be 'harrassed' you have to play in Private. I see no difference in this at this point. If Open was meant to be different than this, then there would be no friendly fire between all PC's.

There's a difference between Min/Maxing in Solo to be more effective and feeling pushed out of Open because of the likely effects of the introduction of Guild features in the only open-access mode in the game.

 

[Scudmungus]

In game guild ok if no in game tag or name

addin tab to friend list aal gud - helpin manage dem in gang an dem not in gang

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Because we are already accepting this to collect our PvE trophies...at this point the point is moot. If you do not want to be 'harrassed' you have to play in Private. I see no difference in this at this point. If Open was meant to be different than this, then there would be no friendly fire between all PC's.

But we're now back (again) to the misapprehension that Open automatically means PvP - it doesn't.

Open was always intended to be to allow more cooperative play between CMDR's, and that PvP was to be "rare and meaningful".

Perhaps you pro-guilders will think that was a naive dream, but if that's the case, I too don't mind being called naive

 

[M00ka]

In I wade again ...
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A question for those FOR the introduction of guilds and having the ability of owning their own station:
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Background:
It seems a common response when defending your wish of guilds/player owned stations is that it won't effect the general population as you will willingly head to some out of the way area of the universe, far away from the human population as it is now. That way, you say, it would be extremely rare for any other player to have any interaction with you and thus be inconvenienced. Fair enough, are we agreed with this is a good synopsis of what has been generally stated?
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Your total population in the vicinity is your own guild members. Yes thanks to SJA her minions will be around, but you really want real player interactions right. But there won't be anyone around except for the odd explorer passing through. There won't be other guilds around, they will all be in the own little piece of the Universe, could be 100's of LYs away from your fiefdom. And even if there is another faction close by, what will you do? You can't attack them, we all know the stations are indestructible. Yes you might shoot their ships, they will just get new ones.
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My Question:
Just what in heaven's name will you do there????

 

[Mephane]

Can you explain how a guild would 'violently enforcing their own personal laws, prejudices and vendettas all across the major systems'? I need to learn how to completely bypass the games safeguards to make this occur. Or are you expecting the devs to shut down the private 'modes'?

A guild owned station needs some sort of guild-owned NPC force to function, just like the regular stations do. This implies some form of minor NPC faction tied to (or identical to) the guild. The guild would set the policies for their own NPCs, for example who to attack, who to allow or deny docking etc. The guild could devote funds and raw materials for improving that NPC fleet, so they don't just fly Eagles and Vipers, but Vultures and FDLs. And suddenly you have wings FDL NPCs patrolling in a "kill every non-member on sight" mode.

This is of course an extreme end of what is possible, just like the friendly neighbourhood frontier outpost is another, entirely peaceful and benign extreme. The reality would probably fall somewhere in the middle, of course. But unless we discuss a particular and detailed proposal for what precisely guilds would be able to down and dictate, and what not, any claim that guild-owned stations wouldn't affect everyone else is either delusional or a deliberate lie. When you now consider that Eve is held by the proponents as the prime example how it should be done, their intentions quite clearly lean towards a "utterly dominate this region" type of status quo not a benign "we have our name on this outpost where you may get fuel and repairs while reading some local news and lore we have written for your enjoyment" option.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

I have a few posts addressing me over roughly the same thing, so I won't quote any of them directly. What I'm talking about is option 3 - guilds but no player-owned stations. I mean, I don't think adding, at most couple hundred extra stations on the fringes of inhabited space would affect non-guild players negatively, but I feel there's no point discussing that when there's still no agreement on basic guild functionality. By basic I do mean basic - a guild roster with the ability to invite and kick members and a guild chat (perhaps limited in range from the guild's chosen HQ, be it an existing station or a player-owned one, for the sake of immersion). If you targeted a member of a guild, their guild would display in the same way as NPC minor faction does. This would make things a lot easier and more fun for guild members, and it wouldn't affect non-guild folks at all. For those who desire not to be even aware of the *existence* of guilds, have a toggle in the options that hides guild allegiance of other players. Perhaps if guilds could claim HQs, those could be displayed on galaxy or system map, so those wishing to avoid them could do so.

Just Guild Chat and Tags is fine for me, nothing against that.

But the Thread having a poll where Guilds is always tied with owning station is going for a more aggressive stance on Guilds, not sure this Poll will help the discussion.

 

[Scudmungus]

.
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My Question:
Just what in heaven's name will you do there????

terrible ungodly tings....