Exploration - required improvements?

Some of what you said makes sense but you go and blow it with "can we have a shiny sparkly black hole, with shiny sparkly stuff near it"

LOL. What would be "near" a black hole, most of science currently believes a big fat NOWT cause its all been sucked in!!

Well, this made it through peer review in a heavyweight journal: http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/0264-9381/32/6/065001

(essentially, the shiny sparkly black hole in Interstellar is a fairly accurate visual representation, tarted up somewhat for Hollywood. Required a render farm, unfortunately, but I'm sure Frontier could approximate the effect without actually simulating the gravity.)

What I'd really like to see in exploration is automatic tagging of the jump-in star and a list of your previously tagged systems.

That way, you could see if anybody else has been to one of your systems, and if they've left a tag for you. I love the idea of tagging a planet next to somebody else's star, as a nod to a fellow traveller.
 
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Actually, today I finished my longest exploration trip so far, which I started a few weeks ago, and I have to say that it was hard and disappointing. It took so long mostly because it got so boring at a certain point that it got harder and harder to continue looking at circles and dots in black space. And even though I was thousands of light years from civilized space, to a place where no one has been before, once I got back, in a two day trip, my reward was only 7 million :( .

Some people would say that is plenty, but in an Asp outfitted for exploration, after a few weeks of travel, this reward is puny, as traders know. If at least there would have been some nice sights, but the Nebula's aren't very impressive, and like I said, most of the exploration time is spent looking at distant dots that you scan, just imagining they are actually nice looking planets if you get really close. At least doubling the rewards I think is needed, or more, for first time discoverers, or the whole effort is simply not worth it.
 
Actually, today I finished my longest exploration trip so far, which I started a few weeks ago, and I have to say that it was hard and disappointing. It took so long mostly because it got so boring at a certain point that it got harder and harder to continue looking at circles and dots in black space. And even though I was thousands of light years from civilized space, to a place where no one has been before, once I got back, in a two day trip, my reward was only 7 million :( .

Some people would say that is plenty, but in an Asp outfitted for exploration, after a few weeks of travel, this reward is puny, as traders know. If at least there would have been some nice sights, but the Nebula's aren't very impressive, and like I said, most of the exploration time is spent looking at distant dots that you scan, just imagining they are actually nice looking planets if you get really close. At least doubling the rewards I think is needed, or more, for first time discoverers, or the whole effort is simply not worth it.

I don't think many explorers would reject extra pay. But that is not the point. We should be exploring because we want to explore, not because the rewards make it worth while. Essentially saying "its a grind, so make the rewards the same as other grinds" underlines the missing mechanics that make it a grind. Fix the disease (lack of functionality) not the symptoms (not worth the effort).
 
and like I said, most of the exploration time is spent looking at distant dots that you scan, just imagining they are actually nice looking planets if you get really close.
The remedy for this is, don't throttle down at 0:06, but wait until 0:05.

Yes you'll overshoot, but you'll speed by the planet, which can be tricky with Gas Giants with lots of moons, you brake using the planet's gravity, and when you loop around you have a windscreen full of planet. So that doesn't lose that much time. Getting away from the gravity well does take a little extra time.

Did you pick and chose what you scanned, or went for a scan all approach?
 
The remedy for this is, don't throttle down at 0:06, but wait until 0:05.

Yes you'll overshoot, but you'll speed by the planet, which can be tricky with Gas Giants with lots of moons, you brake using the planet's gravity, and when you loop around you have a windscreen full of planet. So that doesn't lose that much time. Getting away from the gravity well does take a little extra time.

Did you pick and chose what you scanned, or went for a scan all approach?

I pick and choose mostly, for "maximum profit". I followed a few exploration guides for optimum outfitting, and to identify the best stars in the galaxy map, things like that, to get the best rewards. I am able to identify correctly all planet types in the system map with no problem, and almost never scan rocky/icy planets/moons or asteroids.

I sometimes try to overshoot, but I zoom past the planet too fast to notice much, and I feel it takes a long time to turn around for the proper scan. I will try to use the planet's gravity next time, to slow down faster, thank you for the suggestion. But this makes me think about my frustration about how supercruise works. If I want to explore a distant star, 100000ls+ away, supercruise charges up nicely, but when reaching a certain distance, like at ~30000ls, supercruise slows down, and 2 minutes turn into 5. Or the overshoot problems that arise with the warnings that show up too late, if I'm not paying attention. But let's not get into that...
 
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I pick and choose mostly, for "maximum profit". I followed a few exploration guides for optimum outfitting, and to identify the best stars in the galaxy map, things like that, to get the best rewards. I am able to identify correctly all planet types in the system map with no problem, and almost never scan rocky/icy planets/moons or asteroids.

I sometimes try to overshoot, but I zoom past the planet too fast to notice much, and I feel it takes a long time to turn around for the proper scan. I will try to use the planet's gravity next time, to slow down faster, thank you for the suggestion. But this makes me think about my frustration about how supercruise works. If I want to explore a distant star, 100000ls+ away, supercruise charges up nicely, but when reaching a certain distance, like at ~30000ls, supercruise slows down, and 2 minutes turn into 5. Or the overshoot problems that arise with the warnings that show up too late, if I'm not paying attention. But let's not get into that...
In that case it must be the difference in time we sink into the game. I often set out to do a couple of hours of exploring, but then the, I'll-just-do-one-more bug takes over and I'm sat there till after 1 am.

I asked because on average I make 10 to 15 mil a week. And that's with serious picture taking procrastination.
 
So, I firmly agree that exploration needs some love, and you'll never hear me say anything different.

But, lets look at explo from another perspective.

Of the the careers, which had enough people clamoring for a sub forum dedicated to their career?

Which career has scores if not hundreds of threads about their experience in the game, each one with overwhelmingly positive perception?

Which career has people posting logs of their lsrge scale multi month endeavors that are extremely positive and a joy to read?

Bounty hunting? Trading? Smuggling? Mining?

Nope.

Exploration might be thousands of light years wide and 6 inches deep, but, near as I can tell, it has the most satisfied player base with the most positive sub culture.

So, if Frontier is concentrating on other parts of the game right now, I get that.

Not like I think it's bad to give feedback, or useless, or that these aren't valid concerns - they very much are, but I think bemoaning exploration as the sad stepchild of in-game careers is disingenuous when most observable factors indicate that it's the healthiest career by a long shot.
 
Time to retexture pluto at least :D
http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/news/display.cfm?News_ID=49503&linkId=15514643

On topic: At what point do you say loyalty should be repaid by a big 1.X dedicated to exploration. Are we all going to stick around indefinitely? I think not. They have given love all around, there was nothing interesting with 1.3 and it added bugs that almost ruined my trip. Exploration needs love, it needs new stuff most of all, I can't for the life of me understand why you can't put a small team to improve celestial objects, I realise that at the point of integration it might need more effort, but still. Steal some people from the rollercoaster game :)
 
let me add 1 point:

after plotting an auto route how about dragging a point within that route to where i want to jump too instead of the autoroute, or maybe put waypoints then auto route to those points.
 
Exploration might be thousands of light years wide and 6 inches deep, but, near as I can tell, it has the most satisfied player base with the most positive sub culture.

I couldn't agree less.

I post about exploration regularly. I have dne the trip to Sag A*. I will be Elite in exploring when I get back to the bubble from my current trip. I am dissatisfied. I bought this game to explore. I am doing the nearest thing to exploration we have (you know, that tourism stuff) because it is better than throwing the game away and regretting being taken for a ride. Making the best of what we have does not mean satisfied.
 
Exploration might be thousands of light years wide and 6 inches deep, but, near as I can tell, it has the most satisfied player base with the most positive sub culture.

So, if Frontier is concentrating on other parts of the game right now, I get that.

Not like I think it's bad to give feedback, or useless, or that these aren't valid concerns - they very much are, but I think bemoaning exploration as the sad stepchild of in-game careers is disingenuous when most observable factors indicate that it's the healthiest career by a long shot.
Yes, it's great. But there's nothing to keep us interested for long enough to still be doing it by the time anything new actually arrives. So we may be happy now, but most of us will likely be ex-customers long before FDev have the chance to sell us any expansion packs.
 
The assumption "then FD will be forced to deepen the general exploring mechanic to make near field exploring interesting again" is one I would not bet a single dime on, going by past experiences. I feel that right now FD has to look into the exploration mechanic by the simple fact they've been ignoring it for this long. Does that simple fact make me confident that FD is actually going to implement the needed changes?

Thinking 2 moves ahead requires intimate knowledge of the plans FD has towards exploration. Development is not an ad-hoc process, but requires time. If they haven't already started developing, we're going to have a long wait ahead of us.

Braben already said at launch that explorers were likely to feel ignored for a long while after release. To me this says that the exploration update is going to be a paid expansion. Likely coinciding with planetary landings, something that is clearly already in the works. Given that exploration is it is more of a "end-game" activity for more experienced pilots, and one that is more hardware intensive and expensive on their end, FD probably feels that it's in their financial interest to hold off on exploration updates and keep the bar as low as possible to increase incentive for people to purchase their paid exploration expansion. Besides, why release a resource intensive exploration expansion before the bulk of the pew pew focused community is seasoned enough to be interested in it?

Now, we also know that FD is also a highly responsive company, and we are already seeing more and longer threads in the main discussion forum complaining about exploration. A few of which are focused on how far they have to go now to get 1st discovered tags. The ground swell of maturing pilots is already happening. All it requires is a critical mass of late game players who have switched their focus to exploration, and FD will be compelled to make exploration a priority. To be clear, I am not hoping that FD will push their expansion out the door too quickly before it is ready (though this will probably happen), I am just hoping that FD will start releasing some teaser details, to placate our sense of curiosity and abandonment. Perhaps even prioritize the release of some of the free content updates involving exploration?
 
So, something that I think is significant here, is that "feel" seems to be a pretty important thing for FDev.

Let me explain what I mean by this:

Elite shines brightly when it comes to the raw experience of playing the game. The audio is brilliant, the design decision to put the player as a pilot in a ship and not a camera set on or outside the ship, the "feel" of piloting our ships is hands down the best thing about the game.

The mechanics of flying in SC are a bit dull - but were designed to impart a sensation of distance and a sense of scope and space, and definitely succeed in doing so.

The mechanics of combat as a numbers game are kind of abysmal, but the feel of handling a ship in a dogfight, the sounds of your weapons, the heft of the noise and impact feels awesome.

And so on - mechanics and "feeling" aren't entirely disconnected, but this game makes it pretty obvious where the focus was at release.

Exploration, similarly, has a fantastic feel to it. Being out in the black, thousands of LY from home, feels lonely, isolated, and imparts a huge sense of distance.

I think that, once you start tweaking mechanics, you have to be really careful that you don't accidentally mess up those intangibles. Like, making scanning a planet more engaging without distracting the player from the core experience that is already hitting a lot of the core notes is a difficult piece of design work.

So when I say "Exploration is doing comparatively well" what I mean is that the intangibles are spot on. And I respect that it will take awhile to determine how to modify the mechanics without screwing with that phenomenal core "feeling."

Meanwhile, there is stuff like mining, which "feels" poor - they missed the mark. There are missions and NPC interaction, which don't even have a robust enough framework in place to start going towards the "feel" of the original vision. There is a ton of interacting stuff in the bubble that feels off, and that is also going to be challenging to fix in a way that's in keeping with the level of quality inherent in the stuff that's been done well.

So what you have with exploration is a set of core mechanics that, although they are incredibly sparse, are imparting a fantastic experience, versus a complex set of interconnected systems that are not imparting a comprible experience.

So when Braben and co. say it might be awhile before something changes, it makes sense to me.

That having been said - hell yes exploration needs some work. We need more things to find, and more importantly, interesting ways to find them. But I hope earnestly that good, long thought is put into any changes to existing mechanics or content, because a sense of wonder in a video game is a really hard thing to achieve, and a really easy thing to break - and if that means waiting, then I'm all for waiting.

I do see a lot of general quality of life improvements in the OP - a more robust route plotter probably isn't a difficult design decision. But what I'm talking about are things like "doing more with minerals finds" and "seeing where other pilots have been" - that sounds like things that could affect my core experience, and deserves some serious thought.
 
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Agreed, good list. In addition I want some way to repair my ship out far from civilization. And don't even talk about the stupid repair module, it doesn't repair hull, it's practically useless. Any good ship captain will have tools, parts and skill to stop and slowly repair their ship somewhere behind a moon.
 
...Well, it's a lot better than the asteroids near stars, which are invisible (unless I missed a memo?)...

When I started the game in December, I didn't know what I was doing and was curious about asteroids near the star. So, I selected it as the target and went there. There were indeed asteroids that I could see (and crash into). I flew around 3 such clusters of asteroids that orbited the star. Have you actually tried to travel to any of them and done a flyby?
 
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Exploration, similarly, has a fantastic feel to it. Being out in the black, thousands of LY from home, feels lonely, isolated, and imparts a huge sense of distance.
It felt like that for my first trip or two. But no longer. The addition of plotting routes up to 1000 LY and the first discovery tags greatly reduces the apparent size. Once you've visited a nebula over 50,000 LY away and seen multiple CMDR's names plastered over it, you realise just how small the ED galaxy really is. Even the furthest edge of the galaxy is starting to feel like a bit of a tourist trap.
 
My personal wish list....

-Manual route planning, for heaven's sake!

-EDDiscovery style route history plotting. This really shouldn't be that hard. There are people who worked out how to do it in their free time without accessing the code/servers, surely, the creators of the game could do it, too - in an integrated way... It just needs to log the systems you've visited and allow you to highlight them. Sure, you could probably figure out how to manually enter systems somewhere in your locally saved files, but doe sit matter? Really? It's for personal history and tracking, not for any in game award, you'd just be cheating yourself...

-The galaxy map "web" of routes should allow for your CURRENT jump range. Or, at least, there should be a way for you to measure the distance between any two stars.

I'm currently trying to get a route to Beagle Point, and my jump range is 31.7Ly-34.1Ly - yet, even when I have a 25% load of fuel, it only allows 31.7Ly plots - I have to select a system and manually jump - which is fine, except I have no real way to tell if the path I am working out in my head will work. About 7 times now I've seen what "looks" like a viable route, and when I get there, I find a jump is 34.6Ly or some such. I'm not complaining about my jump range limitation, I'm annoyed that I can't work out routes, even with pen and paper, because I can't measure distances between any two stars unless I am at one of them...

Z...
 
In that case it must be the difference in time we sink into the game. I often set out to do a couple of hours of exploring, but then the, I'll-just-do-one-more bug takes over and I'm sat there till after 1 am.

I asked because on average I make 10 to 15 mil a week. And that's with serious picture taking procrastination.
10 -15 mil a week? Well, I've read that some traders make even 6 million per hour in a type 9... I'm mostly interested in the adventure/experience of exploration, but we can't ignore that the profits we are having are very disappointing, when compared to the other professions :( . And add to that what I was mentioning before, that the experience itself is quite boring, if you don't use "tricks" to keep yourself entertained, like getting close to planets even if you scanned them.

And if they add a paid expansion to get better exploration, I will give up on this game, and move to supporting other companies that aren't as greedy and more dedicated to their customers. Already I am getting tired of seeing at every patch, "its a free update", like its such an amazing "gift" for us to get what we paid for. A large percentage of the review sites and players said that the game wasn't finished when it was launched, but all expressed confidence that this will be solved in future patches.

But, seeing the effort of some of the developers, like Sarah, makes me think (and hope), that I'm wrong, and supporting the game and the company isn't a mistake. Time will tell :) .
 
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-EDDiscovery style route history plotting. This really shouldn't be that hard. There are people who worked out how to do it in their free time without accessing the code/servers, surely, the creators of the game could do it, too - in an integrated way... It just needs to log the systems you've visited and allow you to highlight them. Sure, you could probably figure out how to manually enter systems somewhere in your locally saved files, but doe sit matter? Really? It's for personal history and tracking, not for any in game award, you'd just be cheating yourself...
Heck, they've made an entire galaxy, so they must have a database engine capable of storing information about all possible systems. I can't see any reason why they shouldn't store X previously visited systems in their database, and then have a client-side version as well which can hold more...
 
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