Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[Jordan Cobalt]

Yuh don't need good hardware - but yes yes it be helpin!

..an mi bettin SO SERIOUS mons wantin an usin de best toys 'n extras to get aal de advantage can be gettin

It certainly helps, but no more than using a flight stick or vioce attack will.

There's always people like that in any game. Elite Dangerous isn't that competitive, so I doubt they are common. What matters more than fancy out-of-game equipment, is in-game money.

 

[Scudmungus]

It certainly helps, but no more than using a flight stick or vioce attack.

Truth. An in a fight most mons be wantin every ting dat help. Fair fightin in ED be rare outside of organised meetin up at best. Tech an toys helpin to be makin tings even less fair.

Got no problem wid dis. Mi got aal de toys

..an anoda reason for dem wid no toys an tech to stay away from Open - bringin us back to Good Hardware vs Cheap Hardware. Point still standin!

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Truth. An in a fight most mons be wantin every ting dat help. Fair fightin in ED be rare outside of organised meetin up at best. Tech an toys helpin to be makin tings even less fair.

Got no problem wid dis. Mi got aal de toys

..an anoda reason for dem wid no toys an tech to stay away from Open - bringin us back to Good Hardware vs Cheap Hardware. Point still standin!

Yes but all the toys in the real world won't matter if someone has better in game toys. That matters more than hardware will. Also as I said, the fancy tech guys aren't going to be as common as in a competitive game. It's all about confidence in your own abilities.

 

[Scudmungus]

A mi see. Toys, fah mi, be gud HOTAS, betta bind setup, tracking cam, Voice Attack, beast machine, bold monitor an aal dat.

 

[Jockey79]

Yes but all the toys in the real world won't matter is someone has all the in game toys. That matters more than hardware will. Also as I said, the fancy tech guys aren't going to be as common as in a competitive game.

Someone did post a Google result showing that stick searches / sales shot up when the game came out.

And someone with a stick / voice attack and OR could slim down reaction times and have an edge over someone on mouse/ KB with a 17 inch monitor.

My X52 improved my take offs and landing skills ten fold, I also enjoy combat a lot more and find it easier then I did with a mouse / KB.

Several of my friends have said the same, they can no loner play with clumsy control set ups or without all those extra shiny buttons that come with the more expensive controllers. Also see stories along these lines on the Mobius FB page as well.

So, I feel you are way off base about tech guys in ED.

 

[CMDR Derrida]

The main problem with voice attack as I see it is that with voice attack, your whole family know you're spending far too much time playing Elite; "All you ever do is play that damned game!"

 

[TruffleSnout]

Since there is no main constant server, your ship clone would need to be added to the game of anyone around you.

I know I'm quoting something from a page and a half back, which is ancient history in the threadnought, but I wanted to point out this idea, along with all the calls for keeping combat loggers online will likely never happen. This game has enough network congestion issues as it is, and what you're talking about is massively increasing the network load here.

Network packets in a game only contain the bare minimum amount of info about your ship. How much ammo do you have remaining? How many SCB charges do you have left? What's your current capacitor levels? Heat levels? Which modules are powered off? I'm willing to bet that none of that info is currently being sent across the network, because none of it matters to the 32bit process running on your machine. All your process needs to know to render my ship effectively is where am I located, where am I headed, what is my shield/hull levels, and what weapon is currently firing (over simplification there, but you get the idea).

If you want the AI to take over, then you would need to send all the other info as well - capacitors, power management, heat, consumables, etc... You would likely triple (if not more) the network packet load, and people would be screaming bloody murder over all the rubber-banding and warping.

 

[Jockey79]

I know I'm quoting something from a page and a half back, which is ancient history in the threadnought, but I wanted to point out this idea, along with all the calls for keeping combat loggers online will likely never happen. This game has enough network congestion issues as it is, and what you're talking about is massively increasing the network load here.

Network packets in a game only contain the bare minimum amount of info about your ship. How much ammo do you have remaining? How many SCB charges do you have left? What's your current capacitor levels? Heat levels? Which modules are powered off? I'm willing to bet that none of that info is currently being sent across the network, because none of it matters to the 32bit process running on your machine. All your process needs to know to render my ship effectively is where am I located, where am I headed, what is my shield/hull levels, and what weapon is currently firing (over simplification there, but you get the idea).

If you want the AI to take over, then you would need to send all the other info as well - capacitors, power management, heat, consumables, etc... You would likely triple (if not more) the network packet load, and people would be screaming bloody murder over all the rubber-banding and warping.

And of course, the impact on the match making, with more traffic comes higher pings and less matching of players.

Which brings us back to those who moan they cannot see people now. Imagine after the increase in network traffic seeing even less folks.

 

[FuzzySpider]

And of course, the impact on the match making, with more traffic comes higher pings and less matching of players.

Which brings us back to those who moan they cannot see people now. Imagine after the increase in network traffic seeing even less folks.

Apparently the recent 33% sale brought a few extra tens of thousands of players visiting Eravate within a 24 hour period.

A perfect opportunity to show blockading would work perfectly without solo...

 

[TruffleSnout]

Not to mention it being ripe for hacking. If your ship and its stats are copied to my process for the purpose of protecting me against combat logging by you, it would be trivially easy for anyone to then create a hack to do these steps:

1. Block your IP address from my computer - now my Elite process thinks you've just "combat logged".
2. Memory hack the shield, wep capacitor, and ammo values for your ghost copy, setting them all to 0.
3. Now your ghost copy has no shields and can't fire. Easy pickings. And your death by combat logging is sent to the FDev servers.
4. Next time you log in you're faced with an insurance screen because you "combat logged". Even though you didn't.

 

[Jockey79]

So, if we remove everything that is beyond FD to patch (Combat Loggers, the nature of P2P networks), keeping the KS promises and so on.

What do we have left to talk about regarding the modes and the mode switching feature?

 

[TruffleSnout]

The ability for combat to decide the effectiveness of CGs and PP, I guess?

Which, to be honest, I'm willing to discuss ideas for making the blockade gameplay element more effective. But not at the expense of modes or mode switching.

One idea I like is to have NPC activity in Solo driven by player activity in Open. If there are 12 Elite player Annies lined up outside a CG station, shooting at everyone that passes by (player and NPC alike), then when I go there in Solo, there should be at least 12 Hostile Elite NPC Annies waiting for me, and every other player in Solo. And I'll have a tough time getting past them. If there is a CG for Osmium, then there should be lots of NPCs hauling Osmium in that system, which would be quite profitable for pirates. More Player Pirates in Open = more NPC pirates in Solo. Of course this type of gameplay is predicated on two things:
1) The Minions continue to get buffed so that Elite minions are indeed very difficult targets
2) NPC cargoes undergo a drastic improvement.

Another idea I like, though it may not be very popular is to have different insurance based on mode. Make Open insurance much cheaper, then people would fear PvP less. Of course, that would also enable some of the less desirable elements, but there comes a time when you have to start ignoring the problem children in the interest of having a fun game.

 

[QziQza]

The ability for combat to decide the effectiveness of CGs and PP, I guess?

Which, to be honest, I'm will to discuss ideas for making the blockade gameplay element more effective. But not at the expense of modes or mode switching.

One idea I like is to have NPC activity in Solo driven by player activity in Open. If there are 12 Elite player Annies lined up outside a CG station, shooting at everyone that passes by (player and NPC alike), then when I go there in Solo, there should be at least 12 Hostile Elite NPC Annies waiting for me, and every other player in Solo. And I'll have a tough time getting past them. If there is a CG for Osmium, then there should be lots of NPCs hauling Osmium in that system, which would be quite profitable for pirates. More Player Pirates in Open = more NPC pirates in Solo. Of course this type of gameplay is predicated on two things:
1) The Minions continue to get buffed so that Elite minions are indeed very difficult targets
2) NPC cargoes undergo a drastic improvement.

Another idea I like, though it may not be very popular is to have different insurance based on mode. Make Open insurance much cheaper, then people would fear PvP less. Of course, that would also enable some of the less desirable elements, but there comes a time when you have to start ignoring the problem children in the interest of having a fun game.

so basically you want to change it from a pve-centric system to a pvp-centric system.. so there are 12 anacondas blockading in open then the solo player has to contend with 12 anacondas or elite npcs blocking their game.. yeah that sounds like a rational well thought out plan, what an amazing idea! the fact that in open there may be 12 players in 1 instance blocking.. you would in essence be having every instance in solo replicating that.. so again yet another idea that blanket screws the solo mode, while being limited to the single instance in opne.

if folks want to make changes to their game in pvp.. let them make the changes in pvp.. again and for the 'goodness knows how many times' why does every change suggested for open have to come at a cost to solo?

oh and again... stop with the FEAR of PVP or OPEN crap.. it is a game, there is no fear, only a dislike or a preference to avoid certain playstyles or players, i personally don't like having my game infested with..

idiots, morons, griefers, time wasters, the ignorant, the selfish, the unwashed, anyone who feels they know what i want better than me, anyone who thinks it is fine to push there gamer ethics on me, anyone who cant find meaning in this game unless it is at the cost of another player, people that like to flog dead animals.

that isn't a complete list by a long chalk, there are words i cant uses and some i have likely forgotten, also many of those types are not mutually exclusive to each other.. some players are a heady combination of several.. there may even be players who are all of the above and then some.

 

[TruffleSnout]

so basically you want to change it from a pve-centric system to a pvp-centric system

No, you're still dealing with NPCs/AI in Solo, not other Players. That is the very definition of PvE. PvP means you would be dealing with other Humans.

And what are the chances of 12 Elite players (that all own Anacondas) all logging in at the same time as you? My example was hyperbolic for illustration purposes. During Lembava the biggest PvP force seen in system was a trio of guys, biggest one in a Clipper, iirc. It would have been nice to see a hostile NPC Clipper when I went there in Solo to reflect that.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

So, if we remove everything that is beyond FD to patch (Combat Loggers, the nature of P2P networks), keeping the KS promises and so on.

What do we have left to talk about regarding the modes and the mode switching feature?

Just off the top of my head,

1. The discrepancy in impact between open, group and solo modes.

2. Whether it's fair to advertise a game as an mmo, while offering little to no multiplayer content, and in some cases actually encourage players to shun playing with others.

 

[Cody]

What do we have left to talk about regarding the modes and the mode switching feature?

<grins mischievously> How will guilds affect mode-switching players?

 

[FuzzySpider]

so basically you want to change it from a pve-centric system to a pvp-centric system.. so there are 12 anacondas blockading in open then the solo player has to contend with 12 anacondas or elite npcs blocking their game.. yeah that sounds like a rational well thought out plan, what an amazing idea!

While I've agreed with every post of yours up until now I've got to say that here... well I still agree with you, but I don't think TruffleSnouts idea is quite as bad as all that. In fact I think it's very reasonable.

Basically if a bunch of PCs are in a system in open, clone them and put them in solo. That doesn't necessarily mean that they'll do anything to other players (certainly not pointlessly interdict as some PCs do). But if a bunch of powerplay players are trying to prevent an enemy power from taking a system they could get there and hang around in that system (the clones would be faction clones), and might have some success at system defense.

It's refreshing to see someone actually come up with a new idea in this thread.

2. Whether it's fair to advertise a game as an mmo, while offering little to no multiplayer content, and in some cases actually encourage players to shun playing with others.

CQC will be out by new year. Then this point is dead in the water.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

2. Whether it's fair to advertise a game as an mmo, while offering little to no multiplayer content, and in some cases actually encourage players to shun playing with others.

I do agree that I myself think the tag MMO is confusing to some players, however personally I think the term MMO is actually a wide brush. Whether it is a GOOD MMO is a different debate and clearly subjective but in a world where WOT and WarThunder are actively marketed as MMOs i think it is fair to call ED one too.

 

[QziQza]

No, you're still dealing with NPCs/AI in Solo, not other Players. That is the very definition of PvE. PvP means you would be dealing with other Humans.

And what are the chances of 12 Elite players (that all own Anacondas) all logging in at the same time as you? My example was hyperbolic for illustration purposes. During Lembava the biggest PvP force seen in system was a trio of guys, biggest one in a Clipper, iirc. It would have been nice to see a hostile NPC Clipper when I went there in Solo to reflect that.

and my reply was to your example... so what is your point exactly? regardless of the ship it still boils down to a replication of what is happening in 1 instance to permeate all instances in another mode.. how is that fare? what happens if there are 3 instances going in open with different levels of blockading, how does that effect solo or group mode? aside from the pvp aspect of things.. why should anything that happens in a group environment be replicated in a solo environment? this goes back to something i said yesterday.. open players in this thread just want to inflict pvp where they can, if they cant have a direct confrontation with a solo player in open, they want to make their presence felt to the solo player indirectly.. pretty pathetic really!

actually i can take that a step further.. you want to change the game to allow a small number of players the ability to blockade. blockading has basically no effect on PP, of the thousands of players busily running around delivering papers, or interdicting other powers enemies (all of which actually count towards the change in state) you may make 2 or 3 leave and go to a different system around the corner to deliver anyway. why on earth would the game developers feel a need to change everything to suit a group of players with pitchforks??

why not just do something useful for your power? work within the current system, why should everyone else have to have changes made to their game to satisfy a minority of players who just want to sit still, or fly in lazy circles acting like thugs?? i dont get it, i really dont.

 

[Faded Glory]

No, you're still dealing with NPCs/AI in Solo, not other Players. That is the very definition of PvE. PvP means you would be dealing with other Humans.

And what are the chances of 12 Elite players (that all own Anacondas) all logging in at the same time as you? My example was hyperbolic for illustration purposes. During Lembava the biggest PvP force seen in system was a trio of guys, biggest one in a Clipper, iirc. It would have been nice to see a hostile NPC Clipper when I went there in Solo to reflect that.

A couple of observations...

Firstly, do you know that FD don't already do what you are proposing, to a level that they feel is fair or correct? Other than random NPC traffic and interdictions, any time you take a mission, (and therefore presumably in PP and CG's too), the game generates NPC content specifically for you.

Secondly, QziQza does have a point, that what may seem like a small change can have more wide ranging consequences. To use your example of 12 Anaconda players trying to blockade a station, so putting a similar number of equivalent NPCs into everyone's instance is actually very unbalanced, as presumably only a percentage of Open players would be instanced with the player Anacondas, yet every Solo player would have them as opposition, making Solo very much more challenging than Open, much less fair, to use the Open only people's argument back at them.