The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Anopheles]

The code are handing out moral guidance now, how strange.

Thanks for reminding me though, the organized use of things like shield recharge exploits spoiling the game is another type of guild tactic I disapprove of and would prefer not to see in-game.

Well, as you are the closest to being a cult yourself, I bow to you. I wish I had your experience in giving an unwanted opinion.

Also, I am anti guild (but pro some social tools) in Elite, but don't let facts get in the way of your eye twitchy ramblings.

 

[Stigbob]

This is a quote from EGX 2014

Question:

I'm going to act as The Voice Of The Internet and be Twitch again. And someone asks: Will there be a Corporation, Guild, or Clan System, within Elite: Dangerous?"

David Braben:

"Right there is the, sort of friend's alliance, ehm but at least to start with we've not got Guilds and Clans. Ehm, I think what we don't want is this... this... the whole game to become ossified very quickly, where the... y'know you have to join one or the other to have any fun gameplay. I do like... essentially it's the game of the freedom of the individual, the ability to just go out and do your own thing. Ehm, y'know the... guilds can very easily become almost like Mafiosi saying 'Don't travel here or we'll kill you'. So, um, I think it's something we will look at and are looking at, ehm, but friends groups which are very much more constrained, I think are great, but then when it gets much beyond that it becomes a bit... it doesn't feel right."

He doesn't sound keen on guilds to me, perhaps he suspects they might try to use "Mafiosi" style underhand tactics (for example trying to adversely influence polls).

 

[Talarin]

The trouble is, I don't think there is a good reason to have player owned things (outside of ships obviously) in this game.

Player-owned things may not be the answer, but the game does need more content if it wants to retain appeal over the long term (as in still be around in 10 or 15 years). And by that I don't mean more ships, equipment and weapons.

It's fine that you don't think it's necessary, but others do. Their viewpoint is equally valid, even if it's not what's thought of as "Elite".

This is a quote from EGX 2014

Question:

I'm going to act as The Voice Of The Internet and be Twitch again. And someone asks: Will there be a Corporation, Guild, or Clan System, within Elite: Dangerous?"

David Braben:

"Right there is the, sort of friend's alliance, ehm but at least to start with we've not got Guilds and Clans. Ehm, I think what we don't want is this... this... the whole game to become ossified very quickly, where the... y'know you have to join one or the other to have any fun gameplay. I do like... essentially it's the game of the freedom of the individual, the ability to just go out and do your own thing. Ehm, y'know the... guilds can very easily become almost like Mafiosi saying 'Don't travel here or we'll kill you'. So, um, I think it's something we will look at and are looking at, ehm, but friends groups which are very much more constrained, I think are great, but then when it gets much beyond that it becomes a bit... it doesn't feel right."

He doesn't sound keen on guilds to me, perhaps he suspects they might try to use "Mafiosi" style underhand tactics (for example trying to adversely influence polls).

Thanks very much. That hasn't already been wheeled out a bunch of times in the thread.

Guilds don't necessarily have to infringe on the individual player (more than they already do). Nor does player-ownership. It's all about game design.

 

[Stigbob]

Well, as you are the closest to being a cult yourself, I bow to you. I wish I had your experience in giving an unwanted opinion.

Also, I am anti guild (but pro some social tools) in Elite, but don't let facts get in the way of your eye twitchy ramblings.

I've not heard much of code since FD closed the shield recharge exploit, what's your little gang of gankers up to now that combat involves skill ?

 

[medwyn]

Very welcome thread and very welcome poll.
You have all my yeses.
It's really time to revisit this question and give an updated feedback of how the playerbase (which is much wider and more experienced than it was in the old thread's poll) is thinking about the subject.

 

[Stigbob]

Thanks very much. That hasn't already been wheeled out a bunch of times in the thread.

Guilds don't necessarily have to infringe on the individual player (more than they already do). Nor does player-ownership. It's all about game design.

I'm glad it's him making design decisions, as I agree with his views on guilds.

 

[Anopheles]

I've not heard much of code since FD closed the shield recharge exploit, what's your little gang of gankers up to now that combat involves skill ?

And how would you know that combat requires skill?

 

[Jezzah]

This is a quote from EGX 2014

Question:

I'm going to act as The Voice Of The Internet and be Twitch again. And someone asks: Will there be a Corporation, Guild, or Clan System, within Elite: Dangerous?"

David Braben:

"Right there is the, sort of friend's alliance, ehm but at least to start with we've not got Guilds and Clans. Ehm, I think what we don't want is this... this... the whole game to become ossified very quickly, where the... y'know you have to join one or the other to have any fun gameplay. I do like... essentially it's the game of the freedom of the individual, the ability to just go out and do your own thing. Ehm, y'know the... guilds can very easily become almost like Mafiosi saying 'Don't travel here or we'll kill you'. So, um, I think it's something we will look at and are looking at, ehm, but friends groups which are very much more constrained, I think are great, but then when it gets much beyond that it becomes a bit... it doesn't feel right."

He doesn't sound keen on guilds to me, perhaps he suspects they might try to use "Mafiosi" style underhand tactics (for example trying to adversely influence polls).

Yeah he sounded real sure about the whole subject there. Much. In all fairness he didn't rule anything out in that statement he gave some personal thoughts and was quite political about it in a bumbling kind of way.

I think guilds clans whatever will happen but it will creep in slowly the business model of providing guild support is undeniable and FD is a business when all is said and done. Star Citizen has tapped into this and it's working for them even though the game isn't even released yet. FD won't ignore the potential but it will happen slowly. Not arguing with anyone or siding with anyone because I really don't care either way about guild support just saying as I see it here from having played all sorts of online games over the last 15 years.

 

[Talarin]

I'm glad it's him making design decisions, as I agree with his views on guilds.

Why?

There does seem to be a general unreasoning insistence that Guilds are bad with Elite players, and a lack of understanding that they're only as bad as the game lets them be. What's caused this knee-jerk dislike of a common piece of MMO functionality? Why are you so adamant that they can never work in an Elite context?

 

[Ralph Vargr]

How does this all work in SOLO/GROUP? How does it even work with the whole instancing in Open? And considering I have spent over half a billion, 400 mill just on my T9/Python/conda - How much do I need to start saving before I can buy my own starport?

Am struggling to see how this would all work.. I could see tiny player owned settlements once planetary landings come into place, but an entire starport?

Mine is going to get built with cargo containers...

No guilds. Player voting for station construction sites, yes.

 

[Cowboy Bats]

And how do YOU know the new accounts are fakes, all the mods statement proved is an increased number of new people, nobody said anything about repeat IP's

Until that is cleared up you are as incorrect as everyone else

No one needs to prove that they are fake. However, that many new accounts seemingly interested in one thing only is certainly suspicious, and that is enough to throw the poll out. Frontier needs to plot its own course and ignore this nonsense. I have a lot more faith in the devs themselves than I do a gaggle of screaming players who want to recreate Elite in Eve's own image.

 

[Ozric]

Player-owned things may not be the answer, but the game does need more content if it wants to retain appeal over the long term (as in still be around in 10 or 15 years). And by that I don't mean more ships, equipment and weapons.

It's fine that you don't think it's necessary, but others do. Their viewpoint is equally valid, even if it's not what's thought of as "Elite".

Yes that is fine and understandable, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be player driven or delivered. Outside of the 2 major expansions we know are already planned I think anyone would be daft to not think that FD have lots of ideas on how to add content to the game, but the game is only 8 months old, if they were to implement massive new content updates every few months then, in my opinion, the game would fizzle out much quicker. They announced at Lavecon that they have a 10 year plan and although they didn't share what that was (and nor should they have done) it shows that it is still being thought of.

I'm not saying there's no need to have discussion about things that should be put into the game, there have been many since the beginning and some have already been implemented. It keeps people on their toes and gives the devs ideas, some of which already tie in with their own. However when people start demanding things and saying the game will fail if they're not added at only 8 months in, it really doesn't help anything.

 

[Stigbob]

And how would you know that combat requires skill?

I have to rely on skill, I've never used a single exploit.

 

[Zak Gordon]

I voted No (as i did in the original thread) as you move further away from the Elite spirit, which is you in the vast universe against all odds and more into a group/asset based meta game where you will simply get those that want to game the game, getting more control and power in the game to use against all players (not in their clan/group etc).

That might be a fun game in it's own right (as EVE and other true MMO's show), but it is not Elite.

 

[lefty1117]

I don't think the game needs guilds, and I don't see what the purpose of player-owned stations are with no crafting game, no loot, etc. I don't get the point of having it. What would be the point of having player-owned stations? What would you be able to do with them?

On guilds, I think the Powers should suffice, but they need to be drastically improved with more ways for players to impact the Powers, and the game needs a rethink of its overall social aspect and ability for players to coordinate and communicate. An increase in instance size would be ideal, to start, but the game really needs an enhanced chat system where players can join or leave different channels; power-based channels; larger Party channels, etc. It's just waaaay to limited right now in the ways players can be part of a community in-game, and in some ways I think the call for guilds is a way to get around that. Yet I think if we had all of the social functionality that modern MMOs have, the Powers could be an effective alternative to guilds.

The other thing I don't like about guilds is that they tend to be exclusive - and any mechanic where one player can control whether or not another player can gain admittance is not something I want to see in this game.

 

[medwyn]

This is a quote from EGX 2014

Question:

I'm going to act as The Voice Of The Internet and be Twitch again. And someone asks: Will there be a Corporation, Guild, or Clan System, within Elite: Dangerous?"

David Braben:

"Right there is the, sort of friend's alliance, ehm but at least to start with we've not got Guilds and Clans. Ehm, I think what we don't want is this... this... the whole game to become ossified very quickly, where the... y'know you have to join one or the other to have any fun gameplay. I do like... essentially it's the game of the freedom of the individual, the ability to just go out and do your own thing. Ehm, y'know the... guilds can very easily become almost like Mafiosi saying 'Don't travel here or we'll kill you'. So, um, I think it's something we will look at and are looking at, ehm, but friends groups which are very much more constrained, I think are great, but then when it gets much beyond that it becomes a bit... it doesn't feel right."

He doesn't sound keen on guilds to me, perhaps he suspects they might try to use "Mafiosi" style underhand tactics (for example trying to adversely influence polls).

Mr. Braben made some very limited assumptions here - hopefully the game design does not depend on them. He doesn't seem to have any spectrum about the subject but one conditioned picture and he represents the worst attitude of devs: saying no without asking "how?".
- "y'know you have to join one or the other to have any fun gameplay." - it would be a shame if the game could ONLY be fun if one joins a guild. It's the dev's responsibility to make a game fun enough with or without guilds.
- "essentially it's the game of the freedom of the individual, the ability to just go out and do your own thing." - I can't see how guilds can prevent me to go out and do my own thing as an individual. What prevents me from that really is the lack of content for a single player out there. I see that he has an image of the single pilot and his ship but if he would like this to be the only valid role one can play and not one of the many ED offers, then I have to express my disappointment because of this one-dimensional approach.
- "guilds can very easily become almost like Mafiosi" - he certainly has an image of one sort of guild system but hey, it's down to them what set of rules and possibilities they create for guilds. There are plenty of ways to create guild systems and only one of them will end up like a maffia: the one they allow to develop that way.
- "Don't travel here or we'll kill you" - I've seen this already in the game and on the forums, ED is allowing this sort of behaviour which I have no problem with anyway. And why was solo mode created for then?
- "when it gets much beyond that (friendly groups) it becomes a bit... it doesn't feel right." - right and wrong are very sensitive terms and I just can't wrap my head around the term "the right game". Help me to understand what it means please. Also "the wrong game" can not help me now.

I heard him saying these with others on the way. I found this part clearly less than professional from him who I recognize as a sparkling mind.

Don't afraid of guilds nor let your conditioned emotions overrule your curiosity and creativity. Don't assume that guilds are NECESSARILY leading to inconvenience. Use your imagination here but seriously. There are endless ways and numerous examples out there how to create and configure a guild system which can be engaging for players willing to take part and amusing for those don't.

 

[Captain Howdy]

Epic lol on this entire discussion. I voted yes for guild owned assets, BUT that would require people playing in open.

I mean the sheer audacity of that thought.

 

[PavelKCZ]

Guilds are of course totally stupid idea and players-owned stations are equally stupid idea.

On the other side, I can imagine players-build Starports, which as soon as finished will become "game owned" and persistent for all players. Just imagine the collective effort for building a string of "Rest, refuel, repair" stations across the Galaxy from one end to another...

Nice idea IMHO, lot of fun and lot of work for months...

 

[Ghostickles]

I don't think the game needs guilds, and I don't see what the purpose of player-owned stations are with no crafting game, no loot, etc. I don't get the point of having it. What would be the point of having player-owned stations? What would you be able to do with them?

On guilds, I think the Powers should suffice, but they need to be drastically improved with more ways for players to impact the Powers, and the game needs a rethink of its overall social aspect and ability for players to coordinate and communicate. An increase in instance size would be ideal, to start, but the game really needs an enhanced chat system where players can join or leave different channels; power-based channels; larger Party channels, etc. It's just waaaay to limited right now in the ways players can be part of a community in-game, and in some ways I think the call for guilds is a way to get around that. Yet I think if we had all of the social functionality that modern MMOs have, the Powers could be an effective alternative to guilds.

The other thing I don't like about guilds is that they tend to be exclusive - and any mechanic where one player can control whether or not another player can gain admittance is not something I want to see in this game.

NPC chaperones? Horrible idea.
While I support social features I also do not want to see ED degrade into 'Raid Content' and 'Inspections'. There should always be a way to participate in any activity the game offers, even if you lone wolf.

 

[Talarin]

Yes that is fine and understandable, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be player driven or delivered. Outside of the 2 major expansions we know are already planned I think anyone would be daft to not think that FD have lots of ideas on how to add content to the game, but the game is only 8 months old, if they were to implement massive new content updates every few months then, in my opinion, the game would fizzle out much quicker. They announced at Lavecon that they have a 10 year plan and although they didn't share what that was (and nor should they have done) it shows that it is still being thought of.

I'm not saying there's no need to have discussion about things that should be put into the game, there have been many since the beginning and some have already been implemented. It keeps people on their toes and gives the devs ideas, some of which already tie in with their own. However when people start demanding things and saying the game will fail if they're not added at only 8 months in, it really doesn't help anything.

The frustrating thing is that there are immediate things which could be fine-tuned which would make a monumental difference to the game for a lot of players which don't seem to be being addressed (and in the context of this thread something approaching my own limited vision of what guilds should/could be is included - there's no excuse for a modern MMO not to have player grouping out of the box and I know for a fact that it's cost FD Premium Beta sales).

I bought into this game knowing that it was a work in progress, but I'll not lie - I've become jaded as time goes on. I'd dearly love FD to release some sort of roadmap, but I get that expectation management is an issue around that so while I think it's the wrong choice I can live with it. But speaking for myself - I'll be questioning the purchase of expansion packs going forward.

Like any highly-charged topic, there's a lot of hyperbole. In a way that's good as it shows that players are invested in the game. But I do believe that FD may damage the game over the longer term if they can't keep people interested now. (To be explicit - not to the point of killing the game. That's obviously silly. But if I - a badge wearing fanboy - am getting jaded, then what about people without that emotional tie to the game? Repeat sales may fall short.)