The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Talarin]

Good morning all,

I asked a question several times and never really got an answer. Apart from communication which has already been discussed and acknowledged by FD as needing improvement (well at least I hope they have acknowledged it)

But that's it (for the Guild element). You're overthinking it.

The mods did no one a favour by allowing the old Guild megathread to become a mixed topic. (And no, as far I know, it's not been acknowledged as needing improvement - but many of these things are never publicly announced.)

Guilds don't have to mean ownership of stations. Guilds don't have to mean lawlessness or ganking of lone players. Part of the problem here is that people are arguing against what they think guilds are and how they behave in other games which doesn't have to be true in Elite.

I've made a number of attempts to try to actually have a constructive discussion, but it appears beyond many in the thread - views seem particularly entrenched on both sides which is very disappointing.

what do the players want to do as part of a guild with their own fortress, err Station:
(1) Play as a group - current mechanisms in the game limit an instance to 16 players, so will that be the maximum size of a Guild?
(2) Attack other guilds - see point (1), unless by mutual agreement you restrict it to 8v8, it will be a non event
(3) Trade with other guilds - You can't set prices for the commodities, so it is no difference to how it is now
(4) Have a Fleet - you can't share ships, you will still be restricted to whatever ship you own
(5) Run the station - you can try, but you can't do anything, you can't charge for fuel, ammo, modules, docking fees can you.
(6) Rule the Roost - well yes you can declare your little bit of space as yours alone and attack anyone who dares enter it
.
So I am still bemused by what all those who are asking for Guilds and Guild owned Stations, just what will you do if you finally get it?

You assume that people are approaching the same shortfall with the same objections/desires in mind - which is a fallacy. Some people will stray into some of the options you've highlighted. Some won't. Many (like myself) are solely wanting the better social tools option. Try individually typing the same message to a dozen players from within the game to try to start organising something and you'll soon see why the current toolset is abject.

Incidentally, I'd imagine that as many lone-wolf players would be interested in player ownership as social-players (in fact a number of players have popped into this thread to say exactly that). They are two issues and really should be discussed separately.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This post is useless.

Therefore I am on topic

Spoiler

@mods, reacting to an edited post, please delete

 

[Stigbob]

The point is this game will not survive without deep MMO and player emergent content. Younger gamers want Guilds created and managed by players, player owned systems, share inventory, better communication to organize guild members, guild combat or diplomacy. Player owned Guilds and Systems ads more long-term goals for players. Long-term commitment to build guilds and play Elite other than getting the best ship or shallow career paths.

In Powerplay the major factions are all controlled by the dev, players are cogs in a wheel unable to become their own power.

Elite games (and all space flight simulators) have always been niche games, they cater to their audience. The original elite games still have a loyal (actively playing, just look at fan-remakes, copycat games and this game) fan-base no other games have ever come close to that. Elite was released in 1984 and it's still going, EVE is dying after only 12 years (and a lot of it's bad press relates to guild dominance). Long term survival of this game may depend entirely on keeping the toxic aspects of bog standard guilds at bay.

The thing that Elite's core fan-base like (speaking for myself) is a lack of paths, it's my trail and I'll blaze it how I like. PP offers structure to people who feel the need to be told what to do and where to go, but it's an optional "guild lite" it shouldn't dominate the game.

It's a big old galaxy pilots don't run it, they run in it.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…

Could this be a platform as a base of operation which would satisfy those who like to band together and be located close to each other?
…

Translation Single Player - Guild Player

base of operation: our system and we will kill everybody who is in our system
band together: we kill everybody who is not one of us

Guilds in a PvP game are a very bad idea without really strict game mechanics and harsh consequences for anybody not following the rules (permaban being the weakest). Allow humans to form a tribe and the next thing you will notice is some nice little genocide going on because that other tribe is "that other tribe".
I honestly don't need that in a game.

 

[Cosmo]

As I said, baseless assumption. Thanks for illustrating my point

As I said 70% of players are already inactive, that's not baseless. Veteran players already burned through the limited auto-generated content there is. Guilds will add player emergent content so people entertain each other.

 

[Ian Phillips]

No, I haven't. Not by a loooooong way.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Translation Single Player - Guild Player

base of operation: our system and we will kill everybody who is in our system
band together: we kill everybody who is not one of us

Guilds in a PvP game are a very bad idea without really strict game mechanics and harsh consequences for anybody not following the rules (permaban being the weakest). Allow humans to form a tribe and the next thing you will notice is some nice little genocide going on because that other tribe is "that other tribe".
I honestly don't need that in a game.

But this is possible as it is right now as well isn't it? I had my home in Lave and that exact thing happened there by players who docked in Lave, wanted level and all. The idea I posted doesn't facilitate that kind of behaviour any more than the current situation.

 

[Talarin]

Mirrors my disappointment for making this divisive comment under the guise of being the voice of reason :/

Sorry, you're quite right. Just frustrated. I'll edit.

 

[M00ka]

Good morning all,

But that's it (for the Guild element). You're overthinking it.

The mods did no one a favour by allowing the old Guild megathread to become a mixed topic. (And no, as far I know, it's not been acknowledged as needing improvement - but many of these things are never publicly announced.)

Guilds don't have to mean ownership of stations. Guilds don't have to mean lawlessness or ganking of lone players. Part of the problem here is that people are arguing against what they think guilds are and how they behave in other games which doesn't have to be true in Elite.

I've made a number of attempts to try to actually have a constructive discussion, but it appears beyond many of the naysayers - much to my disappointment.



You assume that people are approaching the same shortfall with the same objections/desires in mind - which is a fallacy. Some people will stray into some of the options you've highlighted. Some won't. Many (like myself) are solely wanting the better social tools option. Try individually typing the same message to a dozen players from within the game to try to start organising something and you'll soon see why the current toolset is abject.

Incidentally, I'd imagine that as many lone-wolf players would be interested in player ownership as social-players (in fact a number of players have popped into this thread to say exactly that). They are two issues and really should be discussed separately.

Thank you for addressing my concerns. I have grouped the desire of have Guilds with the ownership of Stations because, as some have said rather fervently, that is what so many 'players' voted for so that must be what the majority wants.
.
It seems the main concern is the lack of communications, I believe that is a separate issue as it effect all players, not just those in a guild.
.
But in my experiences, all it will take is one guild to decide that it wants what another guild has and it become a self perpetuating chest puffing exercise. And you know that some guilds, especially those migrating from other MMO's will take that aggressive stance. How long would it take before some hot heads in a guild decide that anyone wanting to use their station must pay a 'tax' to do so? How soon before a guild decides that the Nav Beacon for the system is part of 'their turf'.
.
The beauty of the game as it is now is every player is free to go where ever they want to. The only exceptions are those systems that need a pass, and they are readily achievable if you want them. I don't want to see large swathes the galaxy marked as no go zones by the majority of players because a small group decide that is theirs and theirs alone.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Sorry, you're quite right. Just frustrated. I'll edit.

Damnit people!

All this has to stop. Now I have to find someone else to get pee-ed off on.

Anyone?

 

[Kalo Shin]

Trying for a common ground post. It's early in the day ... not truly awake yet, which makes me optimistic.

Player owned stations with total control have too many issues in the area of practical application, effort in development time and goes against the philosophy of Elite. So there's little chance of this idea happening.

There has been talk of owning a private station (inflatable asteroid thingy) which presumably you can upgrade to have either cosmetic or perhaps functional upgrades in it.

Could a cluster of these inflatable homes be a base for players who like to be aligned to each other? Suburban Guilds if you will. The management of your private station won't interfere with the economy, can be completely ignored by those who don't want anything to do with guilds and are already somewhere at least on a design sheet at Frontier Development.

Could this be a platform as a base of operation which would satisfy those who like to band together and be located close to each other?

- - - Updated - - -


As I said, baseless assumption. Thanks for illustrating my point

You ask him to provide a basis for his assumption yet you're doing exactly what you don't want him to do and assuming players don't want this. The basis for this type of argument can be found within games like Neverwinter, or Champions Online.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016471/User-Generated-Content-In-MMOs

Star Wars Galaxies, which for the longest time never played like an MMO of modern day, and instead was player driven and they had the tools to do it! You could make cities, have vendors. Things like that!

http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Player_city

If you don't want me listing modern day MMO's because of course, ED doesn't isn't intended to be an MMO in the sense we know, then here!

https://www.planetside2.com/player-studio

Now this link is mainly just for aesthetics, BUT, Planetside is DEFINITELY not your average MMO because it plays almost nothing like one, yet they had a "Guild" system so players could organize and take advantage of what the game has to offer. (As it stands, it's monumentally challenging to get a 16v16 + NPC's in Elite Dangerous! Which is what a lot of people like! Its massive scale battles man!)

Now if you wanna get away from MMO's all together for example, we could do that! Look at these games!

http://www.teamfortress.com/workshop/

TF2! now you might say "Wait, hold on this is just creating weapons/hats" Sure, but weapons/gear that players create dynamically change the game. And it's had an immensely positive effect on tf2!

https://minecraft.net/

Minecraft. This game was shaped so much by the community that it helped it evolve into a surprisingly popular game that almost everyone knows about! Hell, crafting wasn't even in the original Game Design Document, it was a player idea. Pistons, a fan favorite feature, wasn't in the game but the fans wanted it a lot and it helped the game become more alive.

Hell, look at how popular a lot of Starcrafts player maps were. A lot of them didn't stick to the typical mold of Starcrafts original design, but were immensely popular none the less.


And really, if they add the ability for us to better organize, create more content on our own (Stations in this example, hopefully other features but everyones so opposed to them.) it'll create dynamic things for us to do on a constant basis while we wait for FD to patch their game and add THEIR content thus allowing the game to retain players, and keep a more constant stream of income flowing in, thus allowing FD to continue developing the game. Seriously though guys, I think we can all agree their patching progress is slower than most.

 

[Robert Maynard]

As I said 70% of players are already inactive, that's not baseless. Veteran players already burned through the limited auto-generated content there is. Guilds will add player emergent content so people entertain each other.

Can you link to the source of the "70% of players are already inactive" - it sounds like it would be worth a read.

As to "Veteran players already burned through the limited auto-generated content":

a) all of them?
b) link to stats, please;
c) I haven't;
d) auto-generated content is infinite - how can it *all* be burned through?​

Players already add emergent content - what unique content would Guilds bring? (other than inter-Guild wars)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You ask him to provide a basis for his assumption yet you're doing exactly what you don't want him to do and assuming players don't want this.

No, I make no claim whatsoever in that regard. Nice try though.

I have to be honest, I hoped someone had responded to my idea.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

But this is possible as it is right now as well isn't it? I had my home in Lave and that exact thing happened there by players who docked in Lave, wanted level and all. The idea I posted doesn't facilitate that kind of behaviour any more than the current situation.

That part is rather a problem with "Crime & Punishment" in the game (unless it's an Anarchy system and the ruling bandit lords dont care)

Considering that we are supposed to live in civilized space with security services flying around and a death penalty for loitering the laws and punishment for rampant mass murder should be updated.

Sure, if a PvP org set up a small outpost ina system OUTSIDE of civilized space (ie, the equivalent of EVE 0.0 space) then sure, let them - Unlike EVE we can skip that system entirely since there are no "gates" or gatecamps but a convenient way for us to skip that system as a stop.

But even a player owned system should be forced to follow the same reputation rules. That is, other players can assist NPC organisations OR player organizations to make the ruling faction LOOSE station ownership and even system ownership.

They might THINK they rule a system but they are in the end merely possessing it.

 

[VladtheImpaler]

Damnit people!

All this has to stop. Now I have to find someone else to get pee-ed off on.

Anyone?

Seriously! This should have exploded into a flaming thread of doom. Could it be possible that ED has a more enlightened audience than most game forums?

 

[Kalo Shin]

No, I make no claim whatsoever in that regard. Nice try though.

I have to be honest, I hoped someone had responded to my idea.

(And then you ignore my whole post) Stop being snippy, it's level headed discussion I'm after. [sarcasm]NICETRYTHOUGH[/sarcasm]. See, I don't mind your idea and its honestly along the lines of what I'd love to see, but so long as this actually has a way of informing players that it's most definitely player made. The reason is, people wanna find other players and they also want to make these groups, and have something to work towards.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

Is the poll a wreck because you don't agree with it?

If someone registered especially to vote because they wanted to say, where's the issue with that? How does it make the poll more inaccurate than it was before?

I see a lot of chat about the poll, but very few coherent points. Yaffles "revelation" is irrelevant without more data.

Simple, the forums represent a small % of the entire player base as does reddit. I think it would be generous to say that less than 50% of players use either so how can the result be considered democratic? It can't, hence a void poll.

Lets hope these inflatable asteroid homes will make an appearance soon.

Oh how I lol'd

Damnit people!

All this has to stop. Now I have to find someone else to get pee-ed off on.

Anyone?

I'll bite, whatever your opinion I disagree strongly, especially the bit where you said stuff. That was just not right and how dare you say I said otherwise!

 

[VladtheImpaler]

That part is rather a problem with "Crime & Punishment" in the game (unless it's an Anarchy system and the ruling bandit lords dont care)

Considering that we are supposed to live in civilized space with security services flying around and a death penalty for loitering the laws and punishment for rampant mass murder should be updated.

Sure, if a PvP org set up a small outpost ina system OUTSIDE of civilized space (ie, the equivalent of EVE 0.0 space) then sure, let them - Unlike EVE we can skip that system entirely since there are no "gates" or gatecamps but a convenient way for us to skip that system as a stop.

But even a player owned system should be forced to follow the same reputation rules. That is, other players can assist NPC organisations OR player organizations to make the ruling faction LOOSE station ownership and even system ownership.

They might THINK they rule a system but they are in the end merely possessing it.

I like this a lot.

 

[Talarin]

But in my experiences, all it will take is one guild to decide that it wants what another guild has and it become a self perpetuating chest puffing exercise. And you know that some guilds, especially those migrating from other MMO's will take that aggressive stance. How long would it take before some hot heads in a guild decide that anyone wanting to use their station must pay a 'tax' to do so? How soon before a guild decides that the Nav Beacon for the system is part of 'their turf'.

This is not a guild issue though. That's a crime and punishment one and the only systems where behaviour like that should be possible is in anarchy systems.

Essentially you're describing gang warfare, and I'd expect the local police or even the local major faction to respond accordingly.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

(And then you ignore my whole post) Stop being snippy, it's level headed discussion I'm after.

I don't like to be accused of stuff I didn't do. I'm odd like that.

See, I don't mind your idea and its honestly along the lines of what I'd love to see, but so long as this actually has a way of informing players that it's most definitely player made. The reason is, people wanna find other players and they also want to make these groups, and have something to work towards.

As I understand it, those personal homes are for the owners eyes only. I don't know if they can make it so that players belonging to a certain group can see, and visit each other's bases to be able to .... drink tea, or perhaps make use of their facilities.

Could even become a sort of a little village where players are specialised in a certain aspect. Modules I imagine will cost an insane amount of money, so co-operation would be beneficial.

I'll bite, whatever your opinion I disagree strongly, especially the bit where you said stuff. That was just not right and how dare you say I said otherwise!

Psss, how can you be against stuff? That's just crazy talk!