The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

Guilds and Player Owned Stations

  • Guilds and limited player-owned stations

    Votes: 788 54.4%
  • No guilds or player owned stations

    Votes: 506 34.9%
  • Guilds but no limited player-owned stations

    Votes: 155 10.7%

  • Total voters
    1,449
  • Poll closed .
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Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Really? I've joined guilds in WoW and Everquest and there was definitely a hierarchy and a list of things that you needed to do before you got to a certain level and were "allowed" to join in on certain raids. I've also been in guilds that have had decent leaders and then leaders that were on a complete power-trip, and on PvP servers guilds who have basically blockaded entire areas and made life for non-members difficult.

You dont have to play with these people, yeah sure people like this are in the universe, even right now, and thats a good thing right ? Diversity creates richness.
 
That sounds more like an issue from EVE where anyone not of the same cult got instantly destroyed by paranoid players (me included) gleefully blew up anyone not blue to us.

Thiss is something that can be corrected quite easily.

A station is HUGE.
A player faction is at best 100-1000 players
A station most likely has 10K to 50K of people manning the station and making it work
A station NEEDS commerce
A station needs commerce because it needs supplies, entertainment and goods used ON the station.
A station is driven by more than a factions need of "fun"

So, a player faction who makes sure to keep other players outside of "their" system will have a problem because the amount of commerce they can give is far too little compared to what is needed to keep the population and station going.

We cannot have a gameplay with player driven paranoid gated communities with draconical us vs them rules in Elite because it does not make sense.

That all sounds reasonable but :

How many guild members will behave in a reasonable way
Will the guild leaders be reasonable/will unreasonable elements stage a coup
Will the guild be conquered by an unreasonable guild
NPC traders could fulfill commerce requirements

I play as an itinerant bounty hunter I have no stash of ships or home system, I choose my destination based on current missions, upgrade/shipyard locations and most importantly is that system name new to me. Lets say I drop out of hyperspace in a system I've never visited before interdict and blast a wanted ship that passes my bow, then go the nearest station to claim the cash (hunting along the way). I've just contributed (unknowingly) to law and order in a guild system, helping them (unless it's a pirate guild).

Do they shoot me on sight because I'm not blue, do they allow me to land, am I allowed to use the guild station interface to claim that bounty ?. Controlling draconian behavior would be very difficult for FD.
 
So you've no issues with non-aligned players entering guild systems and landing in guild stations then, and will the rest of your guild see it that way ?
Seeing as how guilds are of like minded people yes they would. On the other hand some may not. But then how is this different than groups like the Code that are already in the game? Guild tools do not make or break those people. Because those problems are not a guild problem but a pvp problem. What does it take for you people to get that? Your fear of guilds is a fear of the wrong thing.

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That all sounds reasonable but :

How many guild members will behave in a reasonable way
Will the guild leaders be reasonable/will unreasonable elements stage a coup
Will the guild be conquered by an unreasonable guild
NPC traders could fulfill commerce requirements

I play as an itinerant bounty hunter I have no stash of ships or home system, I choose my destination based on current missions, upgrade/shipyard locations and most importantly is that system name new to me. Lets say I drop out of hyperspace in a system I've never visited before interdict and blast a wanted ship that passes my bow, then go the nearest station to claim the cash (hunting along the way). I've just contributed (unknowingly) to law and order in a guild system, helping them (unless it's a pirate guild).

Do they shoot me on sight because I'm not blue, do they allow me to land, am I allowed to use the guild station interface to claim that bounty ?. Controlling draconian behavior would be very difficult for FD.

Again not a guild problem. A pvp problem. Stop conflating pvp issues as guild issues. What you are talking about is a pvp issue not a guild issue.
 
That all sounds reasonable but :

How many guild members will behave in a reasonable way
Will the guild leaders be reasonable/will unreasonable elements stage a coup
Will the guild be conquered by an unreasonable guild
NPC traders could fulfill commerce requirements

I play as an itinerant bounty hunter I have no stash of ships or home system, I choose my destination based on current missions, upgrade/shipyard locations and most importantly is that system name new to me. Lets say I drop out of hyperspace in a system I've never visited before interdict and blast a wanted ship that passes my bow, then go the nearest station to claim the cash (hunting along the way). I've just contributed (unknowingly) to law and order in a guild system, helping them (unless it's a pirate guild).

Do they shoot me on sight because I'm not blue, do they allow me to land, am I allowed to use the guild station interface to claim that bounty ?. Controlling draconian behavior would be very difficult for FD.

Well, if I did have my way people controlled a station they would not dictate LAW in that system - merely INHABITATING a station.

Laws in a system would punish players.
Laws in a system would punish the faction players belong to
Laws would lower the influence the faction they have over the station

A faction acting against the best interest of the system risk loosing the privilegie of owning a station.

Unless they were on a war footing with a faction you belong to or if you have killed enought of THEM to become hostile to that faction due to reputation then they are not allowed by law to shoot you unless you are wanted as well.

They can, but there would be punishment. Not the crap punishment we have today but ACTUAL repercussions to each player and ultimately to the faction.
 
...
So what's to stop a guild claiming a system and hovering in SC and simply wiping out any player that enters the system? ...
This is a problem as it is with kill-on-sight commanders, a powerful guild system just means that capricious behaviour can just be better organised - and that's what a lot of people fear.

There will always be some players in any game that just like to be anti-social, but a player faction system could be designed in such a way that it is in the interests of the faction members not to attack independent pilots. In fact, you could implement a mechanism that awarded high merit to faction pilots who assist independents. This would make sense as the local stations would regard your members favourably as "guardian angels" protecting honest trade.

Attacks on specific rival factions are a different matter, and completely legitimate PvP. I'd argue that by providing a conduit for player managed PvP areas, possibly including hot-spot CZs, that the incidence of pointless attacks would decline, as at least some of that currently happens because of boredom.
 
How do you manage that though? By default every station gets most of it's trade from NPCs as there's simply not enough players to have that big an effect on the economies as they're imagined. So what's to stop a guild claiming a system and hovering in SC and simply wiping out any player that enters the system? This is one of the issues; in real life, because there are consequences, most people act in a way that most people can expect to be at least mostly rational (ie. we don't expect McDonalds employees to petrol bomb cars as they pull up if the drivers have not got blue eyes). There is nothing that FD can add to the game that can enforce expected rational behaviour from every player - which is why the NPCs running the show at least keeps system behaviour semi-reasonable in terms of what happens to you when you jump into a system.

This is a problem as it is with kill-on-sight commanders, a powerful guild system just means that capricious behaviour can just be better organised - and that's what a lot of people fear.

If the system to improve or expand a player group owned station relied on the continual support of (unique visits)External Players & NPC's, and the swing was made so favourable that decay of the station to abandonment was a real factor, it would provide a basis for "player owned stations" to be something everyone could enjoy!
 
Well, if I did have my way people controlled a station they would not dictate LAW in that system - merely INHABITATING a station.

Laws in a system would punish players.
Laws in a system would punish the faction players belong to
Laws would lower the influence the faction they have over the station

A faction acting against the best interest of the system risk loosing the privilegie of owning a station.

Good ideas. Keep the space cops independent of control by players, regardless of the group's influence over a station.
 
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OK, I'll bite :)



Not sure what "moduled up" means in this context :S



1. Yes. In the idea I pitched (and which would be the same for several other suggested systems mentioned in this thread) the station is not yours - it belongs to the NPCs who built it, live there and conduct the day to day business. Also possibly to the major faction to whom they are allied. Your faction has simply risen to become the most influential player in the local area and as a result of this status you are offered, as a group, bonuses and discounts etc that are granted as % credit effects on your interaction with the station. Better purchase prices, more for exploration data, better bounties. In effect, the populace has got to know and trust (or fear) you and gives you special deals. It does not, however, effect anything whatsoever as far as players who are not members of your faction.

2. I presume you mean does the faction want to manage the selling prices of the equipment offered through outfitting? The answer is no. Again, your faction would not control the outfitting trades, but your faction members would receive a discount of, say, 1-10% on module purchases depending on their rank within your faction.

3. No. The station businesses manage their own affairs. The only benefit to the faction and its members is indirect through discounts etc, and the eventual ability to "suggest" the location for a new station to be built (a station which you would not own either).

The concept is the same as a CG (in fact, think of it as a private group CG that your group manages for itself as an ongoing project). The payout benefits would only be current while your faction has 51% or more influence over the station. Another player faction could replace you by working harder there on their missions, or an NPC minor faction could knock you from control if they were strongly backed by independent pilots performing their randomly generated missions.

This system doesn't disturb anything in the current game design - it just makes the mechanisms that are only available to the AI right now available to player groups.

couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Really? I've joined guilds in WoW and Everquest and there was definitely a hierarchy and a list of things that you needed to do before you got to a certain level and were "allowed" to join in on certain raids. I've also been in guilds that have had decent leaders and then leaders that were on a complete power-trip, and on PvP servers guilds who have basically blockaded entire areas and made life for non-members difficult.

If you joined a guild that was trying to make you do things you did not want to do why did you stay in that guild? Are you really that weak willed that you followed them around like a puppy?

Key point on the blockaded stuff. Pvp issue not guild issue. Do not conflate a pvp problem as a guild problem. The 2 are not the same. Sure guilds can make the problem worse. But only because one is not dealing with the pvp problem. Not because there are guilds.
 
Seeing as how guilds are of like minded people yes they would. On the other hand some may not. But then how is this different than groups like the Code that are already in the game? Guild tools do not make or break those people. Because those problems are not a guild problem but a pvp problem. What does it take for you people to get that? Your fear of guilds is a fear of the wrong thing.

The code are comical, but they did try (and fail) to claim some systems. The issue is some guilds will be hyper aggressive, paranoid territory controllers with a side order of control freakery, they'll grab a chunk of space hold it and expand. They'll swallow up smaller less hostile guilds and ultimately we wind up in EVE first person mode.

Our "fear" of guilds is that the people who join them will behave like guild members.

The only defense would be an equally aggressive counter guild.
 
If the system to improve or expand a player group owned station relied on the continual support of (unique visits)External Players & NPC's, and the swing was made so favourable that decay of the station to abandonment was a real factor, it would provide a basis for "player owned stations" to be something everyone could enjoy!

Precisely this. The key is stations not being "owned" as such, but rather player groups exercising influence alongside NPC minor factions, or through them in some way.
 
The code are comical, but they did try (and fail) to claim some systems. The issue is some guilds will be hyper aggressive, paranoid territory controllers with a side order of control freakery, they'll grab a chunk of space hold it and expand. They'll swallow up smaller less hostile guilds and ultimately we wind up in EVE first person mode.

Our "fear" of guilds is that the people who join them will behave like guild members.

The only defense would be an equally aggressive counter guild.

Stop conflating pvp issues as guild issues. Your fear is of bad pvp system. You think it is a guild issue. It is not and has never been a guild issue. Just because eve implementation of pvp is crap does not mean guilds are bad. One does not have to make eve's pvp mistakes...
 
Recurring questions from me that just doesn't get answered :)

So, your guild has spent all those resources towards your station, worked hard to get moduled up.

1. Can anyone enter your station?
2. Do you want to have influence over those modules? (Setting commodity prices and such)
3. Do you want your station to create revenue for the guild?

Reason I ask:

1. If the answer is No, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.
2. If the answer is Yes, you are affecting the economy, and thus the entire galaxy
3. If the answer is Yes, go play Eve. Kidding! If the answer is Yes, then the Station is not a money sink, but an investment which will increase the money to be sinked in time.

Let me run this forward:

1. Can anyone enter your power's area without being shot at?
If the answer is yes, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.

2. Can anyone transport gold with no shields in a ship without being interdicted by other players anywhere for any reason?
If the answer is yes, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.

3. Do you want to create revenue for intercepting anyone for their cargo or for your power's cause?
If the answer is yes, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.

I could go on but this might be enough to demonstrate how your approach is dismissing any kind of player interaction in a multiplayer game with guns in it.
If the answer is yes, go and play a single player game and do not restrict the whole concept of a space multiplayer shooter. Please.

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Well, if I did have my way people controlled a station they would not dictate LAW in that system - merely INHABITATING a station.

Laws in a system would punish players.
Laws in a system would punish the faction players belong to
Laws would lower the influence the faction they have over the station

A faction acting against the best interest of the system risk loosing the privilegie of owning a station.

Unless they were on a war footing with a faction you belong to or if you have killed enought of THEM to become hostile to that faction due to reputation then they are not allowed by law to shoot you unless you are wanted as well.

They can, but there would be punishment. Not the crap punishment we have today but ACTUAL repercussions to each player and ultimately to the faction.

Exactly.
This is a ruleset FD has to consider implementing to avoid abusing the playground. That's what I'm also talking about - the HOW is much more interesting to discuss about then saying yes or no.
Let's make some behaviours not worthy to follow while cooperativbe progression is possible.
 
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Stop conflating pvp issues as guild issues. Your fear is of bad pvp system. You think it is a guild issue. It is not and has never been a guild issue. Just because eve implementation of pvp is crap does not mean guilds are bad. One does not have to make eve's pvp mistakes...

Guilds would use PvP as their primary control method, you can't cro-bar flagged PvP area's into the game at this stage. So how do you stop guild ganking ?.
 
Let me run this forward:

1. Can anyone enter your power's area without being shot at?
If the answer is yes, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.

2. Can anyone transport gold with no shields in a ship without being interdicted by other players anywhere for any reason?
If the answer is yes, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.

3. Do you want to create revenue for intercepting anyone for their cargo or for your power's cause?
If the answer is yes, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.

I could go on but this might be enough to demonstrate how your approach is dismissing any kind of player interaction in a multiplayer game with guns in it.
If the answer is yes, go and play a single player game and do not restrict the whole concept of a space multiplayer shooter. Please.

Exactly this, the only thing that needs to stay constant is the ability for players to dock and use basic/allowed services with player owned stations, be it in solo/group or open.

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Guilds would use PvP as their primary control method, you can't cro-bar flagged PvP area's into the game at this stage. So how do you stop guild ganking ?.

They do that right now in open, if they like, so nothing different to now.
 
Well, if I did have my way people controlled a station they would not dictate LAW in that system - merely INHABITATING a station.

Laws in a system would punish players.
Laws in a system would punish the faction players belong to
Laws would lower the influence the faction they have over the station

A faction acting against the best interest of the system risk loosing the privilegie of owning a station.

Unless they were on a war footing with a faction you belong to or if you have killed enought of THEM to become hostile to that faction due to reputation then they are not allowed by law to shoot you unless you are wanted as well.

They can, but there would be punishment. Not the crap punishment we have today but ACTUAL repercussions to each player and ultimately to the faction.


That would work for me, I'd even be willing to take missions for that guild (without signing up).
 
… But then how is this different than groups like the Code that are already in the game?

Guild tools, depending on how they are implemented, would make it easier for such groups to do what they already do. They would be able to do it more efficiently and more organized.

…Because those problems are not a guild problem but a pvp problem. What does it take for you people to get that? Your fear of guilds is a fear of the wrong thing.

Open Mode is PvP. Every addition to the game should be made with PvP taken into consideration and how the addition will affect PvP. Any advantage a group in Open Mode can get is a direct advantage in PvP.

I don't fear guilds, I fear what player groups will do with guild tools.
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… Stop conflating pvp issues as guild issues.…

Stop ignoring the issue ;) You can't separate single aspects of a game from the rest.
 
Let me run this forward:

1. Can anyone enter your power's area without being shot at?
If the answer is yes, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.

2. Can anyone transport gold with no shields in a ship without being interdicted by other players anywhere for any reason?
If the answer is yes, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.

3. Do you want to create revenue for intercepting anyone for their cargo or for your power's cause?
If the answer is yes, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.

I could go on but this might be enough to demonstrate how your approach is dismissing any kind of player interaction in a multiplayer game with guns in it.
Oh dear Zeus, alright.

Again and again the claim is made: "If you don't like Guilds, why be against it? If you don't join one, you won't be affected by it". I'm testing that claim.

What you're listing there is ship on ship action which is exactly the interaction Elite is all about.

Am I being perfectly clear dear medwyn? I trust I am and don't have to respond to any more of this nonsense :)

Don't run forward. Stay still for a while and think.
 
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