The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[JeffRyan]

I could and will argue that threads and polls like this are dangerous and amount to cyberbullying. There's a very specific agenda here that I've seen going on since EVE players started joining this game and pretty much wanted it to be 1st person EVE.

My opinion then and now hasn't changed on this. I'm happy to see Power Play and Factions and people organising out of game for ingame thematic stuff. (I even run the Aisling Duval facebook group). But things like this will make the game into something I never want it to be.

People keep trying to push this agenda and I'm absolutely sure different groups who're in favour of these types of content have put the word out to vote in favour, skewing the result.

Like I said, cyber-bullying. I saw it on EVE when people didn't like the direction of Incarna. So the organised themselves into mass protests using ONE aspect of Incarna (the store) to focus rage against another aspect (the first person non-spaceship content).

 

[Steve50]

What are you even on about here? Guilds in MMOs go back to the very beginning of the genre (15+ years ago fyi)... There is nothing "modern gamer syndrome" about guilds... Seriously, the unfounded anti guild strawmans in this thread are getting a bit out of hand.

You missed the point, yes I know guilds aren't new and I'm not saying they are bad. My point was that a lot of modern gamers can't cope unless they belong to a clan/guild/whatever. I'm not saying guilds are always bad, they aren't and some games are a lot better for them. ..just not Elite

 

[jprelph]

If the system to improve or expand a player group owned station relied on the continual support of (unique visits)External Players & NPC's, and the swing was made so favourable that decay of the station to abandonment was a real factor, it would provide a basis for "player owned stations" to be something everyone could enjoy!

All that system would achieve is make non-guild members a viable target for opponent guilds in that guild's system (or surrounding transit systems). Sit in SC in their system and attack non-aligned players and you can starve the guild out of their station without having to take on guild players directly.

 

[c48113]

Stop conflating pvp issues as guild issues. Your fear is of bad pvp system. You think it is a guild issue. It is not and has never been a guild issue. Just because eve implementation of pvp is crap does not mean guilds are bad. One does not have to make eve's pvp mistakes...

But the Reddit rant that started this was specifically using EVE as the example Elite should follow.

 

[jonny taco]

You missed the point, yes I know guilds aren't new and I'm not saying they are bad. My point was that a lot of modern gamers can't cope unless they belong to a clan/guild/whatever. I'm not saying guilds are always bad, they aren't and some games are a lot better for them. ..just not Elite

"can't cope" you're making it sound like there is something wrong with players wanting to organize with players with mechanics that are available in the game rather than being forced to use third party tools...

and guilds are bad for elite because? Que up the strawmans!

 

[FuzzySpider]

All that system would achieve is make non-guild members a viable target for opponent guilds in that guild's system (or surrounding transit systems). Sit in SC in their system and attack non-aligned players and you can starve the guild out of their station without having to take on guild players directly.

And what about people in solo?

The point of solo mode is that players do not become content. Player owned stations would be a step towards making players content for other players, something that goes very much against the Elite ethos.

 

[jprelph]

"can't cope" you're making it sound like there is something wrong with players wanting to organize with players with mechanics that are available in the game rather than being forced to use third party tools...

and guilds are bad for elite because? Que up the strawmans!

Does it not show a bit of a lack of respect to claim people's arguments are straw men before they've even been voiced? I think people in this thread have given perfectly valid reasons why they think guilds would be bad - if you want to simply blanket categorise them all as straw men that is a failure of your argument, not theirs.

 

[Talarin]

Whose to say I didn't leave? There's a reason that I stopped playing WoW and Everquest a long time ago and that is that because guilds are required to access some content then it's either put up with varying degrees of that behaviour, or don't access the content.

I think FD have the current balance right. Some elements (strong signal sources) do need reinforcements to deal with, but it doesn't necessarily require formal groupings of players. I don't believe anyone is proposing to change that.

How would a guild co-ordinate wings/squadrons without a central location ?, even if territory wasn't a guild feature it would be claimed using guild chat channels to organize it. If guilds were restricted to influence within systems they would blockade systems/stations to maximize their influence. Guilds are about control.

<This is not EVE and should never BE EVE.>

Which is why I oppose guilds.

Some may be about control. Most are not, in my opinion - but even if they are then they are already free to be that in the game as it stands. Making a case for making life easier for those people who take the time to actually make this a multiplayer experience changes nothing.

And, again, concerns about control can be dealt with by decent game design.

I think many people's unreasoning opposition to the idea is summed up neatly by the last part of the quote. Despite all of the effort and discussion that's gone on showing how Guilds/Associations/Expanded social tools (or any other description you'd care to give them) can be different and made to fit into the game, we're quickly back to "This is not EVE, which is why I oppose Guilds". It's not a reasonable statement.

 

[Bam]

The game does need better in-game player interaction and a simple group comms channel would be a great improvement. I'm not sure how this would work under a p2p system. There must be a technical reason why instances are limited to 32 players or whatever the number is and I would guess that it has something to do with the peer-2-peer mechanism. Adding a chat channel might have the same issues? I dunno I am no network guru.

As for player controlled stations and outposts, ever time one was built / destroyed everyones game content would need patching wouldn't it as all the info is local and not from the server?

 

[G0DSF3AR]

Planetary bases

Hey Frontier, I was wondering if you guys had maybe thought upon letting the players build bases on the planets we land on. Perhaps maybe gathering resources on said planet or transporting resources to the planet, that way we could have a place to call our own to meet up with our group members. Also allowing our player-built outposts to generate an economy bases on system available resources and other player-built structures in the system (refinery, research labs etc) and giving the group who built up and claims the system the choice of joining a faction or staying independent. Implementing a system such as this one will allow the universe to expand its stations and populated areas without you guys having to hold its hand the whole way. And while I know this is a very ambitious idea I believe it will help boost the games quality quite a bit.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Stop ignoring the issue You can't separate single aspects of a game from the rest.

Its perfectly acceptable to separate aspects of the game and discuss them separately. Each aspect can easily be discussed at length without muddling them together with another issue.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

"can't cope" you're making it sound like there is something wrong with players wanting to organize with players with mechanics that are available in the game rather than being forced to use third party tools...

and guilds are bad for elite because? Que up the strawmans!

ok so turn it on its head then. Are you saying that you are certain that IF FD supported guilds I would never get spammed from CMDRs saying you are in XXXX guild territory, submit to our laws, leave our territory or face the consequences.?

if you are 100% certain that will never happen and there will be no "no go areas" then you are right to believe we are all worried about nothing. (I still have the right to disagree and believe you are mistaken however).... IF however you are making a judgement call that it is not in your mind a problem if this happens and that it wont happen enough to worry you so it is ok, then it is you sir who has the issue imo.

ED is sold as a game with no plans to support guilds, and the head honcho himself feels they do not fit in his game. The burden of proof is on you guys I am afraid and just saying we are all wrong and it wont happen in elite is not enough to convince me imo.

 

[Stigbob]

Some may be about control. Most are not, in my opinion - but even if they are then they are already free to be that in the game as it stands. Making a case for making life easier for those people who take the time to actually make this a multiplayer experience changes nothing.

And, again, concerns about control can be dealt with by decent game design.

I think many people's unreasoning opposition to the idea is summed up neatly by the last part of the quote. Despite all of the effort and discussion that's gone on showing how Guilds/Associations/Expanded social tools (or any other description you'd care to give them) can be different and made to fit into the game, we're quickly back to "This is not EVE, which is why I oppose Guilds". It's not a reasonable statement.

You are right most people are not about control, the people who rise to the top of guilds however are without exception all about control.

Reasonable or not, it's my opinion and this thread has strengthened it if anything.

I will not do as I am told by a guild either in the game or on the forum, I'm too busy blazing my own trail.

 

[JeffRyan]

You are right most people are not about control, the people who rise to the top of guilds however are without exception all about control.

Reasonable or not, it's my opinion and this thread has strengthened it if anything.

I will not do as I am told by a guild either in the game or on the forum, I'm too busy blazing my own trail.

Those who seek power are the very ones who should never be given it eh?

 

[Chris Majere]

This is not EVE and should never BE EVE.

With 10 billions star systems and solo mode....you can't really change Elite into Eve. Stop being afraid of ..."being afraid".

 

[jprelph]

I think many people's unreasoning opposition to the idea is summed up neatly by the last part of the quote. Despite all of the effort and discussion that's gone on showing how Guilds/Associations/Expanded social tools (or any other description you'd care to give them) can be different and made to fit into the game, we're quickly back to "This is not EVE, which is why I oppose Guilds". It's not a reasonable statement.

Again, it seems to be that in this thread if you're not in favour of guilds then you're being belittled one way or another. I'm a "puppy", people are "unreasoning", "que [sic] the strawmen" etc. I see little point to these threads if that's the level of discussion that we're going to have.

I have argued for better in-game comms, and I use reddit and TeamSpeak - so I don't have a problem with social tools being added, but I think the PowerPlay mechanic is the right way to do that (although expanding that mechanic to be a bit more varied and engaging is fine). I think guilds as they are traditionally would be off-putting to a lot of players, and damaging to the concept of Elite: Dangerous, and I have explained why. Some people know why they don't want them and use the shorthand of "I don't want it to be like Eve", which is a game style a lot of players dislike (and which some people *have* been calling for introducing into ED).

I'll leave the thread now, it seems to have become quite distasteful in tone.

 

[Talarin]

You missed the point, yes I know guilds aren't new and I'm not saying they are bad. My point was that a lot of modern gamers can't cope unless they belong to a clan/guild/whatever. I'm not saying guilds are always bad, they aren't and some games are a lot better for them. ..just not Elite

A bit of personal perspective from me here - I generally play games exclusively as a multiplayer experience. I have a group of about a dozen pals and I'll tend to play alongside them on whatever game/genre takes our fancy at a particular moment (a hangover from the days of CounterStrike and clan-gaming).

Trying to organise with any of them who might be online (we all have families - so voice comms aren't always an option) is ludicrously difficult. So, the "social guild tools" solves a very particular and very immediate problem for me. When you think about Guilds purely as an enhanced social toolset you should hopefully see why many of the arguments AGAINST make so little sense. (It's like arguing against Friends functionality, or the ability to message other players.)

ok so turn it on its head then. Are you saying that you are certain that IF FD supported guilds I would never get spammed from CMDRs saying you are in XXXX guild territory, submit to our laws, leave our territory or face the consequences.?

if you are 100% certain that will never happen and there will be no "no go areas" then you are right to believe we are all worried about nothing..... IF however you are making a judgement call that it is not in your mind a problem if this happens then it is you sir who has the issue imo.

ED is sold as a game with no plans to support guilds, and the head honcho himself feels they do not fit in his game. The burden of proof is on you guys I am afraid and just saying we are all wrong and it wont happen in elite is not enough to convince me imo.

I can absolutely guarantee that with good design, guilds would have no more impact in the game than they do currently.

 

[Day]

The term blazing my own trail being used in this thread is hilarious. In no way are you doing so. Tell me what exactly your doing to "blaze your own trail" very little of what you do has any impact in this game. And in itself tells you more about the game then anything. The only goal of this game seems to be make money and buy ships other then that there is nothing you can do that actually does anything.

Blazing your own trail denotes an actual impact made by you that you yourself create. Whether that be by yourself or with a group.

 

[Stigbob]

Those who seek power are the very ones who should never be given it eh?

There's a fantastic 1950's sci-fi short about exactly that, a lottery is held and the winner is in charge for a year it's not regarded as a good thing to win (utterly unable to remember the author).

 

[Snarfbuckle]

With 10 billions star systems and solo mode....you can't really change Elite into Eve. Stop being afraid of ..."being afraid".

It's not mechanic im thinking about but rather PvP mentality and behaviour.