Piracy and smuggling need love.

[Schattenbogen]

This game is not trying to be historically accurate to pirates from hundreds of years ago.

Pirates exist today and they are as poor as a hundreds years ago.
You can't be rich by choosing a path which make you the enemy of all peoples which want to do money.

TRADING - I heard numbers up to 6-7 million an hour in 1.2, now with good Torval routes and such as high as 9+

1. SMUGGLING - Similar to Trading. Smuggle slaves into black markets, I made 4 million an hour in a lowly T7, heard of Anacondas doing 9-10 similar to trading.
2. BOUNTY HUNTING - Can be as low as 4-5 an hour, or if you take full advantage of Lavigny bonuses and get a good RES, 10+ even seen 15+ maybe higher, though possible random luck with RES spawn based on what others have been posting.
3. MINING - Since 1.3 I can pull in 1.5 million an hour worth of ore. If I get lucky and find a bunch of mining missions however, that same hour's worth of ore can be flipped for 3.5 - 3.8 million (though not factoring in time spend refreshing bulletin board). Somewhat luck based due to missions randomness. With average luck maybe a solid 3.2 or even 3.5 an hour? Though missions are kind of a broken mechanic and if those were removed, only 1.5 million an hour maybe 2 at best.
4. EXPLORATION - Hard to get solid numbers since most explorers go on long trips and don't count the clock. I would guess pretty low though, maybe 1 - 1.5 million an hour if they actually count all travel time? Would love to hear more feedback from Explorers on this.
5. PIRACY - Again, hard to get solid numbers. I've heard of some getting lucky with NPCs, but even then I doubt they were pulling in a million an hour. Any pro Pirates please correct me on this. Of course PvP piracy has a whole set of issues on its own.

Should be

1) Trading
2) Mining
3) Smuggling (only if higher risks as actually)
4) Bounty hunting
5) Exploration
6) Piracy

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Piracy: If traders knew how poor pirates are, they would drop cargo out of compassion! This needs to change. Here are my ideas on this.

1: Hatch breaker limpets need to be ammo, not taking up precious cargo space. Preferred pirate ships have very limited cargo space. Having to manage limpets is so frustrating! If I jettison my limpets, they get mixed up with the pirated goods floating in space. And the whole time there is a timer ticking away for when the police show up.

2: Shooting a cargo hatch to zero should dump all of the cargo into space. Using a hatch breaker limpet should release all of the ship's cargo. And quickly. This is so important. From the moment a pirate shoots a ship, the police are on their way. When pirating high rank npcs, they usually fight to the death while the hatch breaker limpets (HBLs) are being shot. Having to repeatedly shoot HBLs at the target takes so long that by the time the npc is dead, the police are already arrive and you have a few seconds to scoop before your shields drop.

For players, running from a player pirate would be more of an important decision. "I'm in a adder and they're in a cobra. Hmm. If I try to run, can I FSD out before the pirate takes down my shields and uses a HBL?"

3: NPCs need to drop way more valuable goods.

4: Black market prices need a huge buff. Maybe 80%. This would also help smugglers.

5: The time it takes for the police to arrive needs to be way longer.

Pirates and smugglers need some love. Let me know if I @#$%ed anything up...

While i agree that Piracy needs something to help it out, not sure all your suggestions are good or necessary. You can make decent money piracy if you do it right(tm)

1) Not really necessary, you don't need to go crazy with limpets. Depends a lot on the ship you are flying of course and how often you want to be returning to port. Generally speaking though, this is easily managable and not something that requires changing the whole system of limpets.

2) Think about the consequences here for player traders if this change was made. Imagine a player trader with 100 tons of Palladium. This would be a good way to push even more traders into solo.

3) Some of them do carry good and interesting stuff. Making all NPC traders carry full holds of expensive goods would be really strange. I like the fact that you get a range of goods. I appreciate that large hauls of expensive items would be good for piracy, but not good from an immersion and variety point of view. Perhaps a better solution is for more of them to have the odd item of something really rare that is worthwhile. Like those treasure thing you see them carrying, but more vaulable, because the ones that exist sell for, what? Less than a thousand?

4) 80% is a nice number i think. Still reflects that stolen goods can't be sold for full price. Hell, i'd even say 90%.

5) I'd say this should be system dependent. You do this in a high sec system, expect the cops to be on you within seconds. Low sec, maybe it should give you minutes.

Here are some tips:

1) Pirate in Anarchy systems. That solves the problems of the cops turning up. Most anarchy systems seem to have black markets as well, so no need to jump to turn in your cargo. And of course, no bounty incurred for interdicting someone as well.

2) Pirate pirates. Pirates also have bounties, so you can grab some extra money that way, and the combat is more fun. They often carry some decent cargo as well. Not massive amounts, but at least its something.

 

[Dhan]

My list would be

1) Smuggling
2) Trading
3) Bounty Hunting
4) Mining
5) Exploration
6) Piracy

 

[shadragon]

My list would be

1) Smuggling
2) Trading
3) Bounty Hunting
4) Mining
5) Exploration
6) Piracy

This. Smuggling would top all simply because of the profit margin. A Hauler full of legal commodities should be far less profit than smuggled slaves or narcotics. You could argue Exploration belongs at the bottom because those of us who do a lot of it don't do it for the $$$. However, I'm willing to let this list stand as is.

That being said, if everyone smuggled the high profit routes, all the time, security should ramp up accordingly in those systems. If a container ship of crystal meth came into Liverpool every day it would eventually be noticed by the plod. The larger payouts should have much higher risk. Then there is supply and demand. Ten ships (or the same one ten times) carrying drugs / slaves / whatever into a station would increase supply and drop the price dramatically.

 

[neXib]

No it doesn't need more love, it got it's love, as did many other things. Exploration has seen almost nothing but bugs since release while the piracy has had number of gameplay tweaks since launch. Pirates can go around hassling weak trading ships without real consequence, why does it need more love? How many of you pirates actually have gotten hunted by a bounty hunter?

If it doesn't pay enough, find something else to do!

(doesn't mean I don't want pirates in the game, pirates are more interesting than bullies afterall, but stop complaining about cargo not falling ass first in your face, you're a thief afterall)

 

[Glenn Ross]

What I would really like is some solid data on Exploration and Piracy.

Exploration is probably the lowest out there.
Explorers like me don't do it for the money, but for the fun and experience.
Case in point.
Take the BBR A*. A round trip of some 50KLY or so. If trying to do it fast, then it is easy to look up in the relevant thread what the current fastest times are. Even if we shave that down a little to around 8 hours, on a honk/scoop/scoot technique so no detailed scans at all, that's a 2 day round trip which probably nets around 30MCr. So around 2Mcr/h. If you stop to do a proper survey and DSS each stellar object, you will actually lower that figure due to the massive increase in time required and the minimal chance of actually getting anything worthwhile - in my experience, which is more towards the rim than the centre it's true. Also, explorers are generally out of reach for CGs and other missions. Although we can get a decent increase if we can get back in time for one, they seem to be quite rare in the overall scheme of things.

 

[psyantologist]

The new smuggling missions pay rather well...

 

[DJ]

Smuggling: If I buy a good where it's legal and sell it on the black market where it's illegal, the profit should be huge.

I've never understood the logic as to why this is not already in game.

Importing illegal weapons into a flashpoint, the profits at the blackmarket ought to be through the roof for smuggler and blackmarketeer alike! Likewise narcotics/alcohols smuggled into a high security/prohibition station.

However, selling stolen "legal goods" via the blackmarket at a loss, sure, the blackmarketeer ought to take a big cut - shoplifted joints of beef will never realise full retail price anywhere!

 

[Veth]

Well here is my list:

1) Bounty Hunting, Exploration, Mining, Piracy, Smuggling, Trading (alphabetical)

Every profession should have at least comparible profit potential. I'm not sure why some feel the need to poo all over other play styles instead of wanting to help out the ones that could a boost.

Mining needs some help still. Especially if you take out the awkward mechanic of collecting missions then its really only making 1.5 - 2 million.

PvP Piracy would probably be ok if not for combat logging /solo issues. I'll say no more on that as I don't want to beat that horse. But there is no reason PvE Piracy profits couldn't be increased for those times when player prey is hard to find.

Exploration really could use help. Honestly they could probably quadruple the payout on detailed surface scans and it wouldn't be overpowered. It might not even be enough.

 

[Dhan]

Well here is my list:

1) Bounty Hunting, Exploration, Mining, Piracy, Smuggling, Trading (alphabetical)

Every profession should have at least comparible profit potential. I'm not sure why some feel the need to poo all over other play styles instead of wanting to help out the ones that could a boost.

Mining needs some help still. Especially if you take out the awkward mechanic of collecting missions then its really only making 1.5 - 2 million.

PvP Piracy would probably be ok if not for combat logging /solo issues. I'll say no more on that as I don't want to beat that horse. But there is no reason PvE Piracy profits couldn't be increased for those times when player prey is hard to find.

Exploration really could use help. Honestly they could probably quadruple the payout on detailed surface scans and it wouldn't be overpowered. It might not even be enough.

I find it unrealistic that every profession would be on equal grounds when it comes to making money, fair.. sure, but very unrealistic. It is also bad design for low risk professions to have the same profit potential as you call it as high risk professions.

 

[HurstLlama]

... If a container ship of crystal meth came into Liverpool every day it would eventually be noticed by the plod. ...

It would probably take a very long time though and even longer before the Plod actually formed a plan to deal with it (so many committees to go through), in ED terms the universe, or at least the game, would have ended before they got their act together.

However, in theory you are right and, if the game had a properly responsive economy, this would be good to see.

 

[Veth]

What exactly is a low risk profession?

Going by your list I guess mining, piracy, exploration?

Frontier wants mining in RES which is just as dangerous as bounty hunting.. only without running a combat outfit. So it should be higher by default.

Explorers risk weeks or even months worth of data on one wrong jump.

Pirates make themselves targets to cops, bounty hunters, and even other pirates. Whole accruing a bounty, and generally bringing in only a handful of goods.

And ultimately the consequences of this game really aren't that high anyway.

You really think that arbitrary scale of risk justifies professionals making 3x, 5x, 7x as much as others? Because that's what we have right now. That's the issue.

 

[Dhan]

What exactly is a low risk profession?

Going by your list I guess mining, piracy, exploration?

Frontier wants mining in RES which is just as dangerous as bounty hunting.. only without running a combat outfit. So it should be higher by default.

Explorers risk weeks or even months worth of data on one wrong jump.

Pirates make themselves targets to cops, bounty hunters, and even other pirates. Whole accruing a bounty, and generally bringing in only a handful of goods.

And ultimately the consequences of this game really aren't that high anyway.

You really think that arbitrary scale of risk justifies professionals making 3x, 5x, 7x as much as others? Because that's what we have right now. That's the issue.

Calculating the risk from my list would not be accurate because the list takes current mechanics into account as well. For example, a pirate will always be limited by the amount of cargo they can take and sell to black markets. In order to prevent exploits and broken systems, it is necessary to balance current systems regardless of risks. Just because pirates have high risk doesn't mean that the black markets should buy stolen items at 10x the price. If you could implement systems where pirates could be rewarded accordingly, without creating exploitable mechanics, then that would be ideal. Unfortunately, that's beyond the scope of my currently sleep deprived postings.

If I had to rank it based on risk I'd say the combat professions would be considered high risk, so bounty hunting and piracy, with piracy having higher risk due to having to deal with being wanted. Then for medium risk I'd say trading, mining and smuggling, with smuggling and maybe mining having slightly more risk than trading. That leaves exploration in the low risk category because there is really only risk present when entering and leaving the bubble.

I also don't agree with you saying that explorers risk everything on one wrong jump. If you take the basic precautions, you basically have zero risk. It's not like you'll randomly jump into a system inhabited by aliens ready to blow your ship up. You pretty much know what you are jumping into.

I believe the game needs to be balanced based around risk vs. reward, taking game mechanics into account, yes.

 

[Quineloe]

Never tried pirating, but I disagree wit the OP about smuggling.

Some illegal goods have now bigger prices, and you can stack bulletin board smuggling missions that will easily allow you to make up to 2 millions per hour in a cobra or asp just ferrying illegal goods. You will have to nvest in faction reputation and get middle to high ranks in trading to get the highest-paying missions, though.

It's just extremely shallow content at this point. The missions are just like regular transport missions.

Smuggling should have always been the other way around for missions. Create a demand at a station, and keep raising it until someone delivers. Not create regular transport missions where you can't get scanned. It's absurd I can find missions to smuggle battle weapons at pretty much every starport even though if you were to buy these items yourself you'll find them to be the most rare goods in the galaxy.

 

[Battleship Kickass]

2) Think about the consequences here for player traders if this change was made. Imagine a player trader with 100 tons of Palladium. This would be a good way to push even more traders into solo.

As opposed to simply blowing them up if they refuse your demands so they lose all the cargo and get an insurance rebuy. Don't really follow your logic on how this change would send more traders to solo. It's effect would be primarily on NPC pirating making it decently profitable. Against players it would let more traders live if anything.

 

[Quineloe]

I don't buy more than half of those numbers. It's ok though, because one time, I caught a fish T H I S Big.

I've repeatedly clocked my mining runs now. At 2.5 hours between undocking with a hold full of limpets and docking with a hold full of metals, repeatedly around 3500k credits were made. Which is pretty much where Veth posted.

I can also verify the trading and smuggling profits with Torval benefits.

Do you want to watch me stream this type of profit?

 

[Quineloe]

As opposed to simply blowing them up if they refuse your demands so they lose all the cargo and get an insurance rebuy. Don't really follow your logic on how this change would send more traders to solo. It's effect would be primarily on NPC pirating making it decently profitable. Against players it would let more traders live if anything.

Yeah at first my thought mirrored auntie, all cargo out? That's just too much! But this is actually correct.

If we assume a pirate is actually after your cargo because he wants the credits he will make from selling them (as opposed to hobby piracy with trader /bh money), he will not destroy the trader ship, because if he keeps chasing that, he will lose the cargo. Right now if you're not complying, you get destroyed as a lesson. That loss is even greater.

Hobby pirates of course remain a problem because they're not in it for the money.


I always thought the whole notion of a 0% cargo hatch no longer dropping cargo to be silly, and especially the MI CG at Lugh proved how stupid that mechanic was.

 

[jacozilla]

As opposed to simply blowing them up if they refuse your demands so they lose all the cargo and get an insurance rebuy. Don't really follow your logic on how this change would send more traders to solo. It's effect would be primarily on NPC pirating making it decently profitable. Against players it would let more traders live if anything.

Speaking as a trader, while I agree in spirit with your suggestion - would love to see our ability to pirate NPC ships improved, so good thoughts on that.

But purely speaking for myself - letting me live with 100% loss of all my cargo via super cargo limpet is basically is not what I see as benefit. I'd rather die fighting, die running, or just suicide rather than give satisfaction of allowing the other guy to take all my cargo. And if it kept happening, then yes, I would retreat to solo or private group.

It's been said over and over, but unless you are a full time or primary play time trader, it's hard to understand but put simply - the loss of the ship and ship insurance is basically a small blow. Not peanuts, but acceptable cost of doing business if and when you go boom. Everyone takes that risk, combat ships - traders - explorers. I won't entangle the issue with the other topic of combat pilot often risks far less insurance rebuy than trader ship so let's just zero that out for sake of this discussion and call it even.

Losing 100% of your cargo, however, is not even. It is basically a crippling blow. If the trader has sufficient cash reserves, it is of course NOT a permanent crippling injury but it severely reverses quite a bit of progress the trader may have made in profits. So easier or repeated loss of most / all of their cargo via super limpets blowing out their hatch would for me just be a guarantee of retreating into solo or private.

As it stands, the inequality of loss, risk vs reward, is already severely imbalanced between combat ship death vs trader ship death even without cargo. The more the pendulum swings towards more cargo loss, it matters absolutely not at all that you may have 'let him live' because the loss of the cargo is what really kills Open traders - not the relatively small loss of ship insurance rebuy.

 

[Veth]

If you take the basic precautions, you basically have zero risk.

Honestly I think you could say the same about most professionals. Even combat, just don't bite off more than you can chew.

But I digress.

I do think the game should reward risk.
But that should be an option for every profession.

A smuggler makes ok money in in small ship, or significantly more in large one with high chance if scan. Trader makes ok money in high security space, or lots in anarchy. Miner can make good money in high intensity RES, etc. Hunter can aid cops in RES and do ok, or hunt down elite assassination target and get paid well.

But right now its opposite in a lot of cases.

If I go to Hi RES as miner I'll probably make the same or even less than outside RES, while taking a lot of risk. I can't have big shields and cell banks and combat laser loadout and expect to mine. A trader in a safe off the radar of pirates route is making up to 4x as much as me without the risk.

That's not a balanced risk vs reward system.

Every profession should have the potential to make big credits if they put in the effort.

 

[jacozilla]

You pointed out that traders can go to out of way trade routes. Let's go with that for sake of argument because frankly, pirates and griefers can and do use trade tools too - to find the best routes because that's where the victims are. So either that out of way trade route is a bad profit one, in which case the trader is not making risk free great profit, but risk free mediocre profit.

But for sake of argument, lets say there are out of way and equally profitable trade routes. Ok done.

But then by that analogy, miners (and I just started mining myself) have equal option of mining in pristine metallic belts directly, completely outside of high RES zones. And the yields in the belts are the same, with zero risk of combat other than normal odds of being jumped anywhere in Open space.

I definitely want mining income boosted, it's far too low. And improvements on QoL and time efficient (refinery fixes please), but you make it sound like right now your only option is to risk combat in high RES when there is pure patches of pristine metallic belts that we can mine directly with zero RES combat risk.

Or as the mining thread suggest, just fly some distance away from the RES marker and you hardly ever get any ships spawning out there. Forgot what the distance was, believe someone posted 50km?