An evening of combat logging with a surprise ending

[PavelKCZ]

If your connection is always failing during combat with players, I don't see the problem in giving them a temp ban from open. Whether it's legit or not, it's a still a problem for others around you.

Well, this is a problem which always make me laugh. I simply cannot imagine, why players, who combat logout are playing in Open at all. And if banning them to Solo is really a punishment, because with ban from Open, they are basically sent to the place where they belongs and where they should (and actually want to) be from the beginning.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway, even most skillful commanders, not combat logging, would simply high-wake high or twice.
While combat logging is an instant exploit, "legally" high-waking is a matter of 15 seconds.
Death is a choice in this game (when you know what you are doing and did not make stupid choices), which makes some activities such as bounty hunting, simply not viable.

If you think I am wrong, please let me know your thoughts since it is the very reason i have not tried PvP bounty hunting so far.

Correct me, if I am wrong, but high wake is a fair escape. And every skilled bount hunter have a FSW scanner on board, ship with long distance jump ability and is able to follow his target through several jumps. And maybe even ask (in the future updates) at stations "Hey, did you saw a guy named Old Pirate in his rusty Python during last five hours ?"

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

Correct me, if I am wrong, but high wake is a fair escape. And every skilled bount hunter have a FSW scanner on board, ship with long distance jump ability and is able to follow his target through several jumps. And maybe even ask (in the future updates) at stations "Hey, did you saw a guy named Old Pirate in his rusty Python during last five hours ?"

Well, I do not use FSWS, and believe they are useless. Do they now work while you supercruise? I have heard that the feature got implemented but is broken.

While I do love the concept (like in Cowboy Bebop!), here is what I have always done for escaping a fight:
- High wake to the closest system, which was already preselected as route
- I drop to the system, then select another system
- I then immediately jump to this other system, or wait to see if my opponent shows up on the radar, then jump

So far, nobody has been able to use FSW "successfully" on me and I still see them as a waste while you could equip an additional booster or chaff.
Oh and by the way, while combat-log is an exploit, one can still log out (and wait a few minutes or go solo) after high-waking...still not an exploit but same result in the end.

EDIT: My point is that people combat log to escape death, then learn how to use the "legal" ways to escape death.
To me, combat log is a problem only for traders who use that while facing a pirate. But two combat capable commanders fighting, combat log or not, the result is always the same to me: boring, unless one guy has enough money to chose death and pay the insurance claim.

 

[Morbad]

Interesting, so that CMDR was not even aware he was using an exploit that is basically the equivalent of a "cheat".

Plenty of ignoramuses with no empathy, and even less sense, around. Half a second of thought would lead any reasonable person with half a mind to conclude that disconnecting during combat was a cheat.

If I were running a persistent game world like this, I'd give everyone a short quiz during check out at the time of product purchase. Any response that indicates a lack of understanding of these basic things, or an acceptance of cheating, and I wouldn't let them buy my product.

ED should really leave your ships in game until it is no longer considered to be "in combat" for at least 10 seconds before removing the ship from the game actual. This is a feature in literally every MMO.

ED can't do this because Frontier doesn't host the instances themselves, those are peer-to-peer.

Frontier should really bring the hammer down on repeat combat loggers though. Account deletions and permanent bans after the first warning that isn't successfully disputed.

I wonder if denying knowing about it is an attempt to get away with it.

Ignorance of the completely self-evident is an even greater crime than combat logging.

If your connection is always failing during combat with players, I don't see the problem in giving them a temp ban from open. Whether it's legit or not, it's a still a problem for others around you.

Even more so in a peer-to-peer game where other players are dependent on your game/connection's performance and stability.

Correct me, if I am wrong, but high wake is a fair escape.

Anything that isn't cheating (cheating includes exploiting bugs or other unintended game mechanisms) is fair game.

User wants his money back, because he was banned and claim that this is not his fault, because his Internet connection is crap, game is buggy and always, when his shields drop, he lost the Internet connection.

So refund them and don't let the same payment method be used in the future.

It's not like FD is expending physical resources on each sale...if they have to ban and refund 10% of the player base, so be it.

 

[John Smallberries]

An interesting fix might be to force the user after a disconnect back into the mode they just left, ie...open. Also, if they were fighting an NPC, unless someone else has toasted it, it should remain in the same state as it was.

Innocent disconnect, no problem. Carry on...

Combat logging against a player...well, unless you plan on waiting them out...which of course would be a dead giveaway that you combat logged in the first place If it was an innocent d/c, then you would get back to it fairly swiftly in most cases. Certainly a behaviour pattern could be more easily discerned.

 

[PavelKCZ]

Well, I do not use FSWS, and believe they are useless. Do they now work while you supercruise? I have heard that the feature got implemented but is broken.

While I do love the concept (like in Cowboy Bebop!), here is what I have always done for escaping a fight:
- High wake to the closest system, which was already preselected as route
- I drop to the system, then select another system
- I then immediately jump to this other system, or wait to see if my opponent shows up on the radar, then jump

So far, nobody has been able to use FSW "successfully" on me and I still see them as a waste while you could equip an additional booster or chaff.
Oh and by the way, while combat-log is an exploit, one can still log out (and wait a few minutes or go solo) after high-waking...still not an exploit but same result in the end.

EDIT: My point is that people combat log to escape death, then learn how to use the "legal" ways to escape death.
To me, combat log is a problem only for traders who use that while facing a pirate. But two combat capable commanders fighting, combat log or not, the result is always the same to me: boring, unless one guy has enough money to chose death and pay the insurance claim.

But be serious. If peoples are using LEGAL ways (like high wake) to evade death, it is (and must be) OK.

No one surely want to die pathetically just for YOUR fun. As a bounty hunter, you cannot expect that hardened pirate will stop and ask you "OK Sir, you got me. Should I switch-off shields first ? Or wait a minute so you can target my power plant ?"

 

[PavelKCZ]

An interesting fix might be to force the user after a disconnect back into the mode they just left, ie...open. Also, if they were fighting an NPC, unless someone else has toasted it, it should remain in the same state as it was.

Innocent disconnect, no problem. Carry on...

Again, this is technically impossible. If you logout (or close game) and you start the game again, the brand new instance is created for you. You can test it around Nav Beacon. If you scan NPC ships around you, logout and log back, there will be totally different NPC ships around you. This "feature" was (and maybe still is) frequently used by some players in RES points.

The central server has only information where your ship is and can put your ship to safe distance from station/star. The whole instance is generated locally at the client side and server has no info about spawned NPCs in your instance.
It seems that there is some tweak for assasination missions, because game somehow "remember" that you have a mission to kill one exact NPC. So, if you logoff and log back, the target will be there, but with full shields, full ammo, ship in mint condition etc. Simply a brand new, freshly generated NPC, possibly with wing.

 

[Ving]

Another thread that doesn't distinguish between Combat Logging (killing the process) and Combat Quitting (exiting the game)...

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Another thread that doesn't distinguish between Combat Logging (killing the process) and Combat Quitting (exiting the game)...

No way to tell, unless we have a camera on the player in question. To a pirate/bounty hunter they are one and the same.

 

[Herik]

ED should really leave your ships in game until it is no longer considered to be "in combat" for at least 10 seconds before removing the ship from the game actual. This is a feature in literally every MMO.

Ive' read, it's not possible using their P2P network to force a ship to remain in the game for a period of time after a ship 'combat Logs.

 

[kurush]

Interesting, so that CMDR was not even aware he was using an exploit that is basically the equivalent of a "cheat".

Reading Frontier forums could give you a fairly unique perspective where pressing a reset button on your PC could be considered a "cheat". I bet just a fraction of ED players reads the forum though, meaning they are totally obvilivious to that distorted perspective They need to add to EULA something about not touching the power cables while playing and keeping your pets on leash in case they manage to break your network connection But even then, who reads the EULA?

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

But be serious. If peoples are using LEGAL ways (like high wake) to evade death, it is (and must be) OK.

No one surely want to die pathetically just for YOUR fun. As a bounty hunter, you cannot expect that hardened pirate will stop and ask you "OK Sir, you got me. Should I switch-off shields first ? Or wait a minute so you can target my power plant ?"

No sweat, I agree with you.
Just wanted to tell that in the situation where two commanders fight, both in a combat capable ship, I am almost as much p*ssed by combat logging as by the ways implemented in game to escape death.

 

[xaduha]

But be serious. If peoples are using LEGAL ways (like high wake) to evade death, it is (and must be) OK.

No one surely want to die pathetically just for YOUR fun. As a bounty hunter, you cannot expect that hardened pirate will stop and ask you "OK Sir, you got me. Should I switch-off shields first ? Or wait a minute so you can target my power plant ?"

Inconsistencies are annoying, some stuff should be tweaked regardless. The whole 'masslock' (I know it isn't even called that) system is stupid, but still - high wakes are not affected by that. 15 second for the legit 'combat log'? Why is it allowed at all? It should be increased, at the very least.

Watch some old trailers, there was this whole idea of anti-pirate weapons, like mine launchers and, to the lesser extent, missiles. Trading ships can't do biowaste to a pirate!. Of course they should die pathetically if they refuse to comply, if they choose to do it in Open. Either that or the game should be changed, modified, tweaked, fixed, improved, made more fun, etc. But Frontier can't do that without introducing new stuff often and regularly. And it would require significant playtesting, for which they should use the community. All year round test server is needed, not just for a week before a major patch. Heavy-handed fixes are not going to solve this.

 

[DaveB]

hm, if the game is run on a P2P networking model then im afraid we're stuck with this. Unless one day FD kicks up enough of a playerbase to allow for centralized servers. Come to think about it, aren't P2P networked games especially susceptible to hacks?

Of course they are. However it has been demonstrated in several technical discussions on the subject on this forum that there are many methods by which FD could make it extremely likely that a player hacking to cheat in the presence if another non-cheating player could be reliably caught and that's really the only meaningful scenario to address because that is the only time a player is cheating anyone but themselves.

It's kind of like network security. No matter how good you are and how thoroughly hardened your net is, you have to assume that a real pro (or a script kiddie with a zero-day that he bought from a real pro) can get in - so you just make sure that when, not if, somebody does crack in that they leave footprints they can't erase. I know that a real pro could get past my firewall. They'd have to work at it real hard but I'm certain that there are plenty of people out there better at the IT game than me who could do it. What they can't do without physically breaking into my house is get at anything recorded by my IDS (or even see the box, it is connected by a cable with the tx pair unconnected so its impossible to interact with except from the physical console) so I'll know they are there almost immediately when the IDS uses its built-in modem to page me and I can remotely order the firewall box to shut down, effectively air-gapping my entire network from the internet before they do too much damage. Then, when I get home I'll have a log of everything the attacker did on my network and that will help with sweeping up the mess.

 

[Kayweg]

So refund them and don't let the same payment method be used in the future.

It's not like FD is expending physical resources on each sale...if they have to ban and refund 10% of the player base, so be it.

I suspect that Frontier accountants take a slightly different stand on this.

 

[insidah]

I thought combat logging referred to having a poo while in the throes of combat.

 

[hologramix]

So did you win against the Fer de lance? Or did you combat log haha

 

[DangerousLarry]

Interesting, so that CMDR was not even aware he was using an exploit that is basically the equivalent of a "cheat".

That's really interesting to note, thanks for sharing.

An awful lot of people are totally unaware they're cheating. For instance, would you believe me if I told you people genuinely think using "trainers" in multiplayer games isn't cheating? There are a lot of people out there who believe this.

I once had a conversation with a guy who was blatantly cheating. He was being called every name under the sun by a bunch of players when he let slip he was using a hack. I tried having a civil conversation and asked if he knew it was cheating. He tried to argue why it wasn't but it was clear he didn't know what cheating was... As far as he was concerned using hacks was helping him to play with the good players; that it wasn't fair that just because he was bad he was expected to die over and over to the good players. He genuinely thought hacks like aimbot were okay to use as it was more of a challenge for better players and he got enjoyment from not being a fish in a barrel. In his eyes it was a win/win situation.

Combat logging and such is basically the same: "Why should I have to lose everything just because he won? I can just quit and that's that." The thought of "That's just how it is" doesn't really enter their mindset.

I also have a friend in Heroes of the Storm who basically disconnects whenever he gets a less than desirable team(When there's five seconds which gives a preview of the heroes on your team). It pretty much artificially inflates his MMR in Quick Match because he waits for a meta team. It's glitching the system but he doesn't consider it cheating or glitching.

 

[VladtheImpaler]

As a full time pirate, combat logging has never even crossed my mind. One bounty hunter got 900k credit bounty from me. When I respawned, he was at the same station repairing. He said he felt bad and wanted to know if I wanted to split it with him! Adorable. I laughed my %&# off.

 

[Daffan]

ED should really leave your ships in game until it is no longer considered to be "in combat" for at least 10 seconds before removing the ship from the game actual. This is a feature in literally every MMO.

But they cant because of peer 2 peer

This stupid exploit has been around since June 2014. Ridiculous.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Reading Frontier forums could give you a fairly unique perspective where pressing a reset button on your PC could be considered a "cheat". I bet just a fraction of ED players reads the forum though, meaning they are totally obvilivious to that distorted perspective They need to add to EULA something about not touching the power cables while playing and keeping your pets on leash in case they manage to break your network connection But even then, who reads the EULA?

All the more reason they have to start warning and banning players that do it. That way they can at least be aware of the fact they are cheating.