Powerplay cycle results

@OP, a few questions.

1) Will ALD keep the 7 expanded systems that couldn't be afforded, which caused the PP system to place everything into Turmoil?

2) Is there any point in undermining ALD this cycle? Is every Power guaranteed to not fall into Turmoil at the end of the cycle?
I ask because under the "old" system ALD should still be in Turmoil right now. They certainly shouldn't have had every system in Turmoil, but they were running at negative with 2 extra control systems, now they have 7 extra control systems.
Surely no other Power can fall into Turmoil while they are also on the "old" system that was changed for ALD.

3) Will the formula for calculating the new Overheads be made available, or do we have to wait 1 week for some of the members here to figure out an approximation?

4) is there also any planned changed for how much income systems are worth?

5) will upkeep costs change?

I hope I, or others will get a response, if there will be no more official comments here, why not just lock the thread after the first post?
 
Hi All,

We just wanted to get in touch regarding today's powerplay cycle update.

We have noticed in today's cycle update that there have been some unexpected results. We just wanted to let you know that we are aware of this and the development team are currently investigating. More information will follow soon. :)

Developer update: After investigating the issue, what we saw this morning was the result of the overly agressive ramp for the overhead calculation. Which as mentioned last week, we felt, needed to be reduced.

Details can be found below

---

Investigating Arissa’s woes in the current cycle, we’re looking at making the following tweaks:

We’ve pushed out our proposed change to the system overhead cost that we floated in the last update, effectively removing the brick wall stopping large powers expanding whilst retaining the concept of increased effort for expanding the powerbase.

This softening of overhead costs will also take Arissa out of deficit this turn, as well as angle the game play more towards where we want it to go (less being stopped by arbitrary walls).
Alongside this, we’ll be raising up Arissa’s systems out of turmoil to match this change.
Both of these changes should be coming through very shortly.

Going forward, for the next cycle, we’re looking to simplify how overhead is calculated, applying it based on control systems rather than all exploited systems. This should hopefully make it a little easier to consider.

In addition, we’re taking a look at player action availability, to reduce the chance of Commanders unwittingly sabotaging their own power:
Currently, when a power falls into a CC deficit, although new preparation is halted, expansion still takes place for successful preparation from the previous cycle. This drives the power deeper into deficit, which is compounded by overhead costs.
So we’re going to gate expansion behind a CC wall: we’re going to prevent expansion taking place when a power is in deficit, and we’re going to prevent expansion succeeding if ownership of the system would push the power into deficit.

These changes won’t stop Commanders from having the ability to make poor or good choices (you can still expand into low value systems); it will simply stop them from compounded the quality choices (and hopefully limit the effects of any fifth column elements – Commanders that join a power simply to sabotage it).

As an aside, we will also be applying a fix to the merit system that should ensure merit decay is working as intended. So from the next cycle onwards expect that change to be active.
Past the immediate future of the current and next cycle, we’re still chewing over the concept of targeted strikes – we’ll update you folk on this when we’ve come to a decision.

---

Thanks,

Zac
elite-dangerous.wikia said:
Imperial society is based on a "cliens" system - much like ancient Rome - and strictly stratified, with people being able to move between strata based on money, patronage and influence. It values both status and honour very highly. Whilst it is acceptable to flaunt wealth, treating people well is a question of honour - and this includes slaves. Having an unpaid debt is seen as utterly dishonourable - an honourable Imperial citizen would sell themselves into slavery to clear a debt they couldn't otherwise afford.
I have one question:
Why is the "honorary citizens of the Empire" in the face of Arissa Duvall and her team are still not in the "imperial slavery"?​
 
Okay right short version:



It's an obvious and definite problem which has been talked about on the forums for more than two weeks. It was ignored by FD until it hit crisis point.



The suggestion so vague as to be useless in terms of being able to provide meaningful feedback. Requests for clarification went ignored.



They didn't implement their proposed change, not least because their proposed change wouldn't have fixed the issue. What they did instead was that they fudged the numbers for a single power, ignoring the fact that this massively advantaged that power and disadvantaged all of the others, and said they're going to implement a new system next cycle.

And a couple more points for you:

The new system is not the system that was suggested in the original ideas thread (being now based on number of control systems rather than total exploited systems) but again there is so little information available on the change that it's impossible to provide any meaningful feedback or plan accordingly. Players are left in a similar situation to that which they were before, except that they have to spend their time and effort again working out whatever system FD have dreamed up and attempt to play Powerplay in its context.

Those who did plan around the original overheads mechanism now have long-term problems with their powers due to being forced to pick "bad" systems in an attempt to avoid excessive overheads.

Ok. Understood. Well, i'd quibble with you on a couple of minor points, but you win this round Kropotkin!
 
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Power Play worked as engineered: Hudson et al, found a way to work together and everyone got rewarded. ALD worked for each individual and nobody was rewarded. Ta da. :)
 
Power Play worked as engineered: Hudson et al, found a way to work together and everyone got rewarded. ALD worked for each individual and nobody was rewarded. Ta da. :)

Hudson is number one for two reasons:

1. He started out big

2. Constant enemies undermining him, prevented him from expanding too fast
 
In defence of Frontier, they could not test it earlier on large player base. If you accept that this PP is work in progress and beta then half the whining on the forums would go away. They need to fine tune the system. This is what they are doing now.

But I still think...: see my sig :)
 
You don't even need a guild system.

It's a rather different genre, and the specific mechanics are different as a result, but this is conceptually a very similar problem as was suffered by WW2 Online back in the day. Originally, players could attack and capture nodes (townsin this case, rather than star systems) wherever they wanted, whenever they wanted. This caused loads of problems, including people taking towns that made no sense. The response to that was to create a high command for each side that could declare Attack Objectives, meaning players could only take objectives in towns with an active AO. This both ensured a concentration of players at each AO, and ensured that there was also some sort of direction (not necessarily intelligent direction, mind...) and overall strategy involved. It had 'guilds' as well (in this case, squads), but the AO system was entirely separate. That said, I don't see the problem with allowing the formation of in-game player organisations; it's a good way to populate what's ultimately a very, very large environment with stuff. The issue is where you draw the line to prevent E:D becoming EVE 2.0.

Now, there's obviously a difference between a hierarchical command structure - even a simple one as in WW2OL - in an objective focused game set in WW2, and an open world space sim billed as a game you can play how you want.

My suggestion would be that PP provides the perfect vehicle for a player-led, player directed mechanic for those who want it (because if I want a player-directed group experience, currently I can't play as I want, no?), but it would require significant overhaul for that to be appropriate. For a start, the rewards should be all monetary, so players that want to do their own thing rather than be 'told what to do' don't get penalised; the real benefit would be the gameplay, not special widgets. If that aspect must be retained, move it into a PP-independent relationship system exactly like we have now with the Empire/Federation/Alliance/Minors, with the special weapons becoming available after a certain relationship. You'd have to balance it so that it's only possible to have very good relations with one power at a time, though.

Second, strip out the grind from PP itself, and instead use many of the current mechanics to link PP and normal play. Have the powers give missions, available to players with high enough reputation, to ferry PP tokens and the like around for monetary reward.

Third, have expansion be directed by a player-led faction organisation that chooses objectives. This is the player-directed mechanic. Once a target has been decided on, each side should start getting sites in that system to either attack or defend vs NPCs, the frequency and difficulty of which depend on how many resources each side can move into the area. The more resources you have, the easier they should be. Likewise, players should be free to attack the other side's assets outside of those mission areas. The upshot of this is that players have to organise themselves to get the required supplies into the expansion area, to protect those incoming supplies - because the other side can attack them on the way in - and to attack the objectives in the target system... or indeed, to stop the other side from attacking their objectives, if on the defence.

The objectives should be different for each power as well. For example, Hudson might have objectives that are straight up conquest, whereas Ashling Duval would have stuff like defending humanitarian ships. Tailor them to the power in question so as to provide some personality. They'd also only be able to be declared on systems that meet the prerequisites - Hudson isn't logically going to be able to attack an Imperial system without starting a war between the Federation and the Empire, so any 'police action' he takes should have to be directed against a Federation or independent star system. Setting up future expansion targets to be eligable is another thing that the player organisation would have to do.

Fourth, players who want to participate in PP, but don't want to be part of a player-directed organisation. That's fine; if the organisation is the Power's private mercenary army, individual players who want to do their own thing can be the Power's privateers. Issue them with a letter of marque and pay them for wreaking havoc in the opposition's star systems... or for delivering humanitarian aid to systems in civil unrest or whatever. Again, tailor the activities that get the player compensated to the power.

Finally, this all needs to be tied together, rather than operate mostly independently of the rest of the game like PP seems to now. The resources available to fuel expansion should depend on the overall state of a Power's economy, meaning that PP is tied into the 'normal' game at that point. The more PP-related trade missions that get done, even just the number of normal goods shipped about by non-aligned players, should all play a part. This, of course, incentivises PP players to protect their territory, and the other side(s) to try and destabilise it. It also means that the 'organised' PP players and the independents have some sort of relationship to each other.

It would also require at least a minimally effective in-game organisational tool, even if it's just a faction-wide chat, but preferably including some sort of in-game bulletin board system so that the current strategy can be explained, and to list future targets so people can work on getting those systems into a state where they can be expanded to.

The big overall advantages of this are that, first, it prevents a situation where all the incentives are perverse incentives that will ultimately lead to collapse (that is, the situation as it stands now), and second, that it creates a community around each Power. As anybody who's ever played a game like Cybernations knows, even if your mechanics are as deep as a puddle in the middle of a 30 degree heatwave, if you have a strong community, that doesn't matter. As it stands, PP doesn't have the engaging mechanics to stand on its own, and it totally lacks any effective way to assemble a community around each power. It really needs one or the other, ideally both.

Very well thought out ideas, sir.

I like this game very much, but I have very very very little time to play it, so PP commitment is out of my league.
I understand that the most prominent thing (or maybe the only thing) that keeps player coming and doing stuff is rewards, in the end.
As PP is now, is a complete mess. People will ALWAYS do the simplest thing to get to their reward in the smallest amount of time (see the Loot Cave in Destiny as a reference).
FD could flood the game with features and complex community mechanics but the players will ALWAYS point to the best reward-earning-per-hour ratio.

The thing that PP needs the most is community coordination. It's plain stupid that such a big community feature is (1) not at all explained in game and (2) has no whatsoever mean of communication/coordination in game.
It's ridiculous people have to stop playing to look up on the internet where to go/what to do to avoid breaking the system (like it just happened).
As you say, if I want to be seriously involved in PP, I need in-game guidance/coordination/information. I need an in game community to work as a supporting force for my power.
If I don't have time or don't want to fully commit to a power, I should be able to give a hand somehow without risking to disrupt what the hardcore force is trying to do and still getting some rewards for my help.

As it is now, reward only come from merits and players have no reason to get credits from difficult or time consuming activities, hence the merit grinding from overfortifying near systems.

I really hope your ideas reach the devs, because PP needs a structure and a way to be understood and effectively used IN-GAME, and the state in which it is now is just total anarchy :/
 
Hudson is number one for two reasons:

1. He started out big

2. Constant enemies undermining him, prevented him from expanding too fast


How big was ALD to start with? Derp.

Hudson was played by its membership to become this big. Unlike a certain other group whom did nothing For the whole and all for the parts. We chose what to do collectively. We held meetings, drew up maps, planned strategy. What did you do? Fortify your home system to 10000%? Lol. Better luck next cycle... Oh wait... :)
 
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Oh god please no. I dunno who some of these people think they are but I'll be damned if Im directed how to play the game by others.

absolutely agree with this. this is a game not life and i will not have my game directed by a few self promoted players. i agree there is a problem but the power runs it's systems not the players, the powers should be the 1's deciding/directing expansion (whether it's a power AI or Ed employees) not some small group of people who think/believe they know whats is best for us.

Also agree that we shouldn't have to use third party apps/reddit to organise things. E.D should be providing us with these tools
 
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What they did instead was that they fudged the numbers for a single power, ignoring the fact that this massively advantaged that power and disadvantaged all of the others, and said they're going to implement a new system next cycle.
This alone undermine their credibility as an objective and "super partes" judge.
 
This alone undermine their credibility as an objective and "super partes" judge.

In their update on the subject, they also stated that this "angled the game play more towards where they want it to go". That just sound to me as if they are saying "we have a precise idea of how PP should be played" but at the same time they give no explanation at all about how the whole system should work in their minds.
There's not enough info on PP in game, some more can be found on the Internet thanks to players that are spending hours and hours in game to try and figure something out. But then again, maybe there's no whatsoever info about how it should hypothetically work since it's still a work in progress and the devs want to know if it's working as intended before putting out some more useful info.

Or maybe that's just one of those ideas that seem brilliant on paper but are nearly impossible to make them work in a game driven by a great number of players, each with their own interests, time to dedicate to the game and playstyle.
 
absolutely agree with this. this is a game not life and i will not have my game directed by a few self promoted players. i agree there is a problem but the power runs it's systems not the players, the powers should be the 1's deciding/directing expansion (whether it's a power AI or Ed employees) not some small group of people who think/believe they know whats is best for us.

Also agree that we shouldn't have to use third party apps/reddit to organise things. E.D should be providing us with these tools

The fundamental problem with this thought is that the power currently doesn't run itself. Nobody and nothing runs it, and consequently there's no direction, thought or strategy much of the time. Instead, what the overall power does is directed by the individual actions of players taken in isolation. Great for 'everybody does their own thing', a total failure from the perspective of a working set of mechanics for something like PP, because all the incentives presented to individual players mean that the best thing for individuals to do is actively catastrophic over time for the powers themselves.

Player-led organisations would be better for building a community around each power, which is why I think they'd be a good idea. However, any form of direction at all would be better than the free for all that is currently the case.
 
absolutely agree with this. this is a game not life and i will not have my game directed by a few self promoted players. i agree there is a problem but the power runs it's systems not the players, the powers should be the 1's deciding/directing expansion (whether it's a power AI or Ed employees) not some small group of people who think/believe they know whats is best for us.

Also agree that we shouldn't have to use third party apps/reddit to organise things. E.D should be providing us with these tools


You always have the option to go do your own thing. Never forget that.
If you want to be told what to do, does it really matter where it comes from?
You bought the game, you can play it any way you want to...the choice is yours but you'll never be forced into doing something by others.
Whatever way you look at it, regardless who makes the decision as in a player or an AI power, you are putting what you do in someone else's hands.
So, you either go with that or do your own thing.
Comms are good, and if you find yourself in a situation you don't agree with by joining something only to think you made a mistake, you can always subvert it.
Or you could quietly leave but y'know, messing with things is fun if you can keep it together.
You always have options. Sometimes it just takes a little imagination and sometimes you have to hold off your best work for special occasions.
For a rainy day as such.
 
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How big was ALD to start with? Derp.

Hudson was played by its membership to become this big. Unlike a certain other group whom did nothing For the whole and all for the parts. We chose what to do collectively. We held meetings, drew up maps, planned strategy. What did you do? Fortify your home system to 10000%? Lol. Better luck next cycle... Oh wait... :)

I believe they "basked"...
True story.
 
In defence of Frontier, they could not test it earlier on large player base. If you accept that this PP is work in progress and beta then half the whining on the forums would go away. They need to fine tune the system. This is what they are doing now.

But I still think...: see my sig :)

Honestly, I've read maybe half of this thread, and the argument persists that ALD over-expanded so quickly and so poorly because 'it is impossible to control a player base as large as ours.' I think I've said it myself, but over the weekend I realised something. A Power which determines its ratings and rewards based on competition within the Power itself will necessarily have fewer and fewer highly rated contributors, as many will burn out when they are faced with a Sisyphean task every single week. Does that mean a inner-competitive Power Play will have no participants? No, I don't think so, but a majority of the participants will be satisfied with ratings 2 or 3, and it won't become a 'grandest' which outright encourages players to ignore strategy and keep shuttling nonsense particles back and forth because it's an easily achievable goal.

A large player base where every single participant is encouraged to contribute around 5000 widgets for the cause every single week? I know of no better definition for a grind. A large player base where everyone knows only 10 people will get the 50 million dollar cash bonus? That's a large player base that will find themselves not "grinding" as much as they currently are, because there's no more reason to. Maybe then they'll start participating in the strategy of the system. So, as for "there's no way to control a player base this large"? Well, FDev thought they had a way. We told them to trash it.

Please, FDev, bring it back.

So, what I'm taking away from the first month of Power Play? FDev was right. Go back to the beta rating and rewards system.
 
In defence of Frontier, they could not test it earlier on large player base. If you accept that this PP is work in progress and beta then half the whining on the forums would go away. They need to fine tune the system. This is what they are doing now.

But I still think...: see my sig :)

Frontier should have realised that the majority of people will only do stuff for their own gratification, its the masses that have destroyed powerplay rather than the concept. If it is in Beta as you suggest then we need to be told, as currently its not so much a battle of the powers, but a battle of internal politics, by negatibg what the masses are doing as opposed to what needs to be done.

Oh...and I agree with your sig.
 
"organisation" in PP currently consists of the chaotic merit grinding majority, with a minority of reddit users under the delusion that they are under control of the situation.
 
I've noticed my reputation with the Empire is on the slide - dramatically. Patreus is in Empire space, so are the other factions around Patreus space. So when I undermine, and gain bounties, I loose reputation. If I continue, I'll soon be unfriendly, and then I'll be considered as hostile, and attacked by the stations controlled by Patreus. I'm a little worried about the loss of reputation to the point now where I can't choose to undermine Empire controlled space. That kinda sucks, as all the controlled enemy stations closest to a controlled station...are in Empire space.

May I ask frontier...if this was intentional? And if this is part of the politics, fine. At least I'll know, and will avoid undermining any opposition in Empire controlled space and run away when an enemy interdicts me.

Also, If I don't like the types of ships that pop up, all I do is drop out of super, then return, and they're gone. So I can keep doing that, even when I see the local enforcers about to interdict me. Drop out, go back, gone. When one does interdict me...return to super, and they're gone. Which...seems a little...wrong...to me. It removes all the immersion from the game. It becomes nothing more than a stupid video game. Like a platform game of the old days. This is how you do this. Click move left click. Rinse and repeat. It's mindless.

Frontier has to understand one thing about grinding merit...players will choose the easiest path. Merit should be linked to difficulty. The elite NPC's - more merit. And the most merit for a player, more if they have a more powerful ship.

And while I'm on the PP subject, there should be a faction channel. It's the only way people will organise ... with other players online at the time. Players could ask for wings and this will boost the faction community which is seriously missing. Right now ... its's chaos. Opposition can also team up to defend and PvP players will get what they want. Right now...it's Leesti. Which seems very mindless and boring to me. And yes, I know you don't want hundreds of players in the same area. Your servers can't cope. So instance it. Set a limit per instance and just have more instances.

For the moment I suppose players can go to their faction headquarters and use the local to organise. So I suppose we have that, at least. Perhaps players can go there on Thursday at a specific time and discuss tactics for the week ahead?
 
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